Successor Super Doctrine

[Focslain]

So I tried searching google/reddit for this but it wasn't really answered.

 

Can an army with Successor Tactics use the super doctrine from the founding chapters.

 

I played againt a guy recently that took Indomitable and Stalwart, declared they were a Raven Guard successor so got to use Surgical Strike.

 

This seems wrong to me, but for the armies I use custom trait systems (guard and Tau) the super doctrine thing isn't a thing (yet).

 

If he was on the ball that is fine, but as stated, it felt wrong.

[Mandragola]

Yes, this is the whole point of successors. They get access to the strats, warlord traits, psychic powers and super doctrine of their primogenitor. They can only get relics by paying CPs.

[Brother Tyler]

If your chosen Chapter does not have an associated Chapter Tactics on pages 94-95, you must instead create their Chapter Tactic by selecting rules from the list here. Unless otherwise stated, your Chapter has two Successor Chapter Tactics from the following list:

(highlighting added)

 

You get either the Chapter Tactic for your Chapter on page 94-95 or two Successor Chapter Tactics on pages 96-97. You don't get both.

 

You're talking about the special rules from the codex supplements, that's a different story. I don't have the Raven Guard supplement, but I have both the Imperial Fists and Ultramarines. Both of those codex supplements have similar wording:

 

ABILITIES

If your army is Battle-forged, then in addition to the Detachment abilities gained from Codex: Space Marines, units in your army with the Combat Doctrines ability (see Codex: Space Marines) gain the Legacy of Dorn ability so long as, with the exception of UNALIGNED units, every unit from your army is an IMPERIAL FISTS unit or every unit from your army is from the same Imperial Fists successor Chapter (see below).

 

...

 

SUCCESSOR CHAPTERS

When you include an ADEPTUS ASTARTES unit in your army that has the <CHAPTER> keyword (see Codex: Space Marines), you must decide what Chapter that unit is from. Unless you choose one of the First Founding Chapters available to you (White Scars, Imperial Fists, Iron Hands, Ultramarines, Salamanders or Raven Guard), then your Chapter is a successor Chapter, and you should decide which of the aforementioned First Founding Chapters it is a successor of.

 

If the successor Chapter you have chosen is one established in the background of our publications, its founding Chapter will often be known (for example, the Crimson Fists are a known successor of the Imperial Fists). If the successor Chapter you have chosen does not have a known founding Chapter but has the Inheritors of the Primarch Successor Tactic, and you selected the Chapter Tactic of a First Founding Chapter, your chosen Chapter is a successor of that First Founding Chapter. Otherwise, choose a founding Chapter that best fits your Successor Chapter's character.

 

If your Chapter is a successor of the Imperial Fists, the following rules apply:

The Ultramarines codex supplement is virtually identical, replacing Legacy of Dorn with SCIONS OF GUILLIMAN and using the Mortifactors as an example of a successor.

 

So under that, your opponent's Raven Guard Successor gets to use the Codex Supplement: Raven Guard abilities for his Raven Guard Successor, including Warlord Traits, Chapter Relics, Strategems, Psychic Powers, and Tactical Objectives - unless the Raven Guard codex supplement provides exceptions, such as the Imperial Fists codex supplement provides for the Crimson Fists.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Brother Tyler
Fixed my BBCode closing tags.

[Focslain]

Yes, this is the whole point of successors. They get access to the strats, warlord traits, psychic powers and super doctrine of their primogenitor. They can only get relics by paying CPs.

 

Understood, well that guy lost his army selection privileges. *Preps Throne Mechaniuim*

 

I play knights unless the player is new to the area or in general then I let them pick the faction I field. He was neither but it was so long since I did a pick up game I forgot who he was until the game. 

 

Also as a note, Crusade vs non-crusade even with the CP  bonus is not balanced. 

[Brother Tyler]

...well that guy lost his army selection privileges...

Why? He was, in your words, "on the ball."

[Focslain]

 

...well that guy lost his army selection privileges...

Why? He was, in your words, "on the ball."

 

 

Yeah, he knew exactly what he was doing. So he doesn't get to pick what army I use for now on. 

[Dracos]

Did he tailor his army to fight Knights? Because if he does you’re not going to be in much better shape. Especially is you make more than one of them a character. Knights as you know do okay as a gatekeeper but will fall like wheat in a storm to an army that is tailored to fight them.

 

I only ask because it sounds your pretty pe-ode at this guy? .... and if he’s one of “those guys” then I’ll be happy to toss some ideas back and forth with you. While my thing is Raven Guard, I played the Knights for my team in a tournament last month and so happens two of my five opponents were Raven Guard (just don’t report me to the Ravenspire ;))

[Focslain]

Did he tailor his army to fight Knights? Because if he does you’re not going to be in much better shape. Especially is you make more than one of them a character. Knights as you know do okay as a gatekeeper but will fall like wheat in a storm to an army that is tailored to fight them.

 

I only ask because it sounds your pretty pe-ode at this guy? .... and if he’s one of “those guys” then I’ll be happy to toss some ideas back and forth with you. While my thing is Raven Guard, I played the Knights for my team in a tournament last month and so happens two of my five opponents were Raven Guard (just don’t report me to the Ravenspire )

Not really, more just annoyed.

 

He was playing a crusade army and I got a 4 CP bonus, that should have sent up flags as that is a 8PL difference. I didn't mind losing, it was how I lost.

 

It felt as if I was cheated but he didn't break any rules. If I'm going to lose to something like that I want it to be with an army I enjoy playing. That being knights.

 

I collect multiple forces because I like to and can. I build on a narrative sense though so my lists are sub-par to an extent (knights tended to punch above weight at least last edition).

 

It just wasn't a fun game and I felt I was taken advantage of for cheap XP. So next time I'll make him work for it and use a force I like using.

For our game I was using guard on his request. Because I wanted to be a nice guy and not bring the heavy guns to our first game.

[Closet Skeleton]

I played againt a guy recently that took Indomitable and Stalwart, declared they were a Raven Guard successor so got to use Surgical Strike.

 

This seems wrong to me, but for the armies I use custom trait systems (guard and Tau) the super doctrine thing isn't a thing (yet).

That's not a cheesy power combo at all. No one in a tournament list uses either of those successor traits. The base Raven Guard trait is better, with the most popular old one being Stealthy and Master Artisans (eg half the Raven Guard trait + half the Salamanders trait).

 

Surgical Strikes is actually most effective against Imperial Knight Baronial Court spam so he might have been going easy on you by suggesting you play Guard.

[Mandragola]

Honestly I think this is probably just a case of the base marine codex being far more powerful than IG right now. I've got no idea how guard can take marines on, especially in 9th where they're supposed to control the centre of the board.

 

I don't know if he also had more PL than you due to Crusade, which I don't play. That could also have been a factor. But the RG super doctrine almost certainly wasn't. I guess he'd have killed tank commadners more easily but pretty much any of the marine super doctrines would have been as bad for you, if not worse.

[Dracos]

The point is he wasn’t a noobie and Focslain was trying to do a solid and was taken advantage of in the sense. I get it, especially in a system like Crusade which is suppose to be more narrative and fun.

[Medjugorje]

Usually if there is a faction which have extremly strong options for redeployments and hard first turn charges in combination with very powerful units - new players or fun players can be hit very hard.

 

 

As a tournament player I know how stressful a game against Raven Guard successors can be... You have to be so careful in your deployment because with RG´s redeployment strategies you can loose the game in first round  - just one mistake, a small gap,... 

[Focslain]

Dracos got it.

 

I'm sure my question was not a normal one, just that the only real marine armies I've played are Space Wolves (who don't have a super doctrine) and Ultramarines.

 

The connection that 'successors' of the legions got the super doctrine didn't click because 1) never used them and 2) custom chapters are rare in my area. Seriously I think everyone just reskined one of the main 9 or outright takes one. Even my multi-chapter crusade army is just a reskinned Iron Hands force.

 

But yeah, while he didn't do anything wrong rules wise, he was a vet that took on a demo army.

 

So I won't let that happen again.

 

Thank you all for letting me rant and helping answer the question.

[Oxydo]

When it comes to your opponent's list, if it was a Crusade list his Chapter with the corresponding CTs and successor superdoctrine has to be defined at creation and can't be changed so I really hope he didn't do that?

Did you mean that it was a 8 crusade point difference? Which isn't that much considering that you don't get any relics or WLTs for free. But yes, crusade vs non-crusade isn't the greatest idea, neither is using PL imo.

SW have had a superdoctrine since Saga of the Beast in case you missed it (extra hit on 6 in melee during assault doctrine).

[Focslain]

When it comes to your opponent's list, if it was a Crusade list his Chapter with the corresponding CTs and successor superdoctrine has to be defined at creation and can't be changed so I really hope he didn't do that?

Did you mean that it was a 8 crusade point difference? Which isn't that much considering that you don't get any relics or WLTs for free. But yes, crusade vs non-crusade isn't the greatest idea, neither is using PL imo.

SW have had a superdoctrine since Saga of the Beast in case you missed it (extra hit on 6 in melee during assault doctrine).

 

I did and I just read the WarCom article on it in the new supplement. 

 

As for his list I don't think he modified anything. As for the difference it was based on the PL of the list (we did a 1K game for list writing) and subtracted 2 Crusade points for WL/Relic so I would have them. He was after all that 8 Crusade points above me. I just converted Crusade points to PL since the total cost of the force is PL + crusade points. 

 

Basically there was a few units that had battle honours, he had upgraded both his captain and LT (Master of fleet and spent RP to give his LT the RG WL trait)

 

From what I got after the game was that he had 6 crusade game under his belt, not including mine. The extra CP is supposed to give a little bit of a balance if the crusade force is fighting a non-crusade force. Which as stated doesn't really help the non-crusade player if the force is leveled high enough.

 

Crusade also seems to be getting bigger in my area as in the past month several have asked to do crusade game. So it's something I have to start watching out for. I have no issue with the system if all involved are on the same level (same # of games), it gets sus when there is a in-balance.

 

Course I planned to use Crusade to train my knight pilots, but that was just using the leveling system to track progress, not the battle honour system. 

Edited October 27, 2020 by Focslain

[Mandragola]

Sounds like it would have been fairer if you were both playing Crusade armies. You might still have lost against a more experienced army, but maybe you'd have got bonus xp or something.

 

As far as tehse kinds of systems go, Crusade seems to be relatively well set up to provide bonuses to whoever has played fewer games. I haven't done it yet but it might end up being a good system.

[Focslain]

Sounds like it would have been fairer if you were both playing Crusade armies. You might still have lost against a more experienced army, but maybe you'd have got bonus xp or something.

 

As far as tehse kinds of systems go, Crusade seems to be relatively well set up to provide bonuses to whoever has played fewer games. I haven't done it yet but it might end up being a good system.

 

Not really, the game went exactly as if we were playing two crusade armies, but my force was the one that had few games. The bonus CP that the person with a less experienced force gets did zero to help.

[Charlo]

The balancing factor between crusade and non-crusade games is a token gesture at best...

 

When after just a gew games units can be rocking full re-rolls, extra damage weapons and a FNP roll, some extra CP won't make up for that.

 

I'd say remain positive and suggest a non-crusade game on even terms next time :)

[Brother Captain Vakarian]

You guys really have found the extra CP to not be helpful as a balancing tool? The only Crusade game I’ve played where my force (IF successor chapter) was ahead in Crusade points, I was slaughtered and in large part because of the CP my opponent gained (I was 8 or 10 Crusade points ahead so he got 4 or 5 extra CP at 50 PL!). Admittedly, that could be specific to the army (he was adding a new Emperor’s Children force to our ongoing Crusade campaign), because he was able to hit multiple deep striking, 12” charges, pop Veterans of the Long War, etc, in multiple turns instead of only having the CP in a 50 PL game for that trick to really work once.

 

Now, when we play unbalanced Crusade games, I try to get the unleveled units from my roster into the game so I don’t give the new force such a crazy CP advantage. Crusade upgrades felt like a pretty meaningless trade-off compared to a guaranteed 12” charge from deep strike with VotLW and other strat support in back-to-back-to-back turns.

[Focslain]

So this thread has gotten way off the starting topic, but personally I'm fine by it. If a Mod wants to move this thread to the Amicus Aedes section that would be great and I'll change the topic title to 'Crusade vs Non Crusade balance?'

 

You guys really have found the extra CP to not be helpful as a balancing tool? The only Crusade game I’ve played where my force (IF successor chapter) was ahead in Crusade points, I was slaughtered and in large part because of the CP my opponent gained (I was 8 or 10 Crusade points ahead so he got 4 or 5 extra CP at 50 PL!). Admittedly, that could be specific to the army (he was adding a new Emperor’s Children force to our ongoing Crusade campaign), because he was able to hit multiple deep striking, 12” charges, pop Veterans of the Long War, etc, in multiple turns instead of only having the CP in a 50 PL game for that trick to really work once.

Now, when we play unbalanced Crusade games, I try to get the unleveled units from my roster into the game so I don’t give the new force such a crazy CP advantage. Crusade upgrades felt like a pretty meaningless trade-off compared to a guaranteed 12” charge from deep strike with VotLW and other strat support in back-to-back-to-back turns.

 

That has more to do with the tools at your opponent's disposal. He had some killer combos that worked well. I did not, nor general do just based on my play style/armies.

 

Besides I'm ok with this. Honestly I'm waiting for my next game because I'm just going to bring the force I want (within the point limit of course) and let it face ever growing challenges.

[Brother Captain Vakarian]

Yea, I probably should have started a new topic rather than jumping on the Crusade balancing part. Regardless, thanks, and good to know. My primary opponent and I haven't played 40K in a while and have just gotten back into it with Crusade in 9e. But that makes sense that it's heavily dependent on what kinds of stratagems you have available.