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[Dark Shepherd]

Almost Pro Gaming has a review vid up and its got more holes in it than an orks loincloth

 

Auspex Tactics have a decent one up

 

Lukas is eligible for Saga strategem though, Majesty will be a hoot on him

[FabulousRex]

I seem to be seeing alot of wierd hate on Grey Hunters in most of these reviews, especially Goonhammer. What gives? Are folks just unused to them, or is there some killer math that invalidates them?

 

I'm not even paying for Chainswords anymore because my models didn't have them. Just the melee and special Weapons are pretty great in what's basically a Tactical squad.

[TiguriusX]

IMO why invest points in GH that shoot when eradicators give you all the shooting you ever need.

 

The only loss is obsec

 

Blood claws are still useful because they provide buckets of chainsword dice

 

I use a squad of GH because I had points left over for a few chainswords and I use their bolters to clear chaff off objectives. They don't go anywhere near front line combat

[Dark Shepherd]

Hunters are slightly less good than Claws but far from useless IMO. S4 AP 0 bolters are probably a bit out of fashion

[Kallas]

What gives?

 

Yeah, I'm with you. Grey Hunters, pound for pound, are a better option than Intercessors when looking at the strength of Space Wolves.

 

They're better in melee (with their Chainswords) as they have the same attacks but with -1AP.

They have worse Bolters, but they can compensate by making their ranged capabilities much better with special weapons.

They utilise Firstborn vehicles (well, Razorbacks) very well, meaning that a package of Grey Hunters + Razorback can handle many different things.

 

 

IMO why invest points in GH that shoot when eradicators give you all the shooting you ever need.

 

The only loss is obsec

 

Blood claws are still useful because they provide buckets of chainsword dice

 

I use a squad of GH because I had points left over for a few chainswords and I use their bolters to clear chaff off objectives. They don't go anywhere near front line combat

 

Well ObSec is obviously useful, but Eradicators aren't actually all that incredible. Their output is pretty great for their cost but they're an extremely high priority target because of it - meaning they either get zoned out from deep strike/outflank potential, or get focused down as soon as possible.

 

Also, Grey Hunters aren't competing against Eradicators.

 

The comparison with Blood Claws is similar to the comparison on 8th. Blood Claws get better melee, Grey Hunters have additional shooting potential (and still very solid melee) making them more flexible and more useful in any non-melee situation (eg, holding a mid or backfield objective).

 

Personally, I'm looking at going back to the old Razorbacks + Grey Hunters of early/mid 8th Ed. A few AssBacks, a couple of LasBacks and then packs of Grey Hunters with opposite weapons (Meltas in the AssBacks; Flamers or Plasma in the LasBacks). Means I can move them around quickly but also deal with most sorts of threats, as well as bringing a good amount of bodies for the objective game.

 

Blood Claws going to BS3+ and still able to have a special + combi in a 6-man squad does hurt Grey Hunters, but I don't think it makes Grey Hunters non-viable.

 

In my mind the advantage of Grey Hunters is the patience. Grey Hunters are better when Heroically Intervening [Edit for clarity: Grey Hunters don't lose out on their potential when Heroically Intervening] against a unit that comes to take their objective, where Blood Claws would miss out on their Berserk Charge bonus.

 

(Some mathhammer stuff, since I'm curious about the difference the Bolters/Berserk Charge makes.)

Vs GEQs (T3, 5+)

Grey Hunters:

Bolters 

Tactical Doctrine: 0.66*0.66*0.833=  0.36 / in Rapid: 0.72

Assault Doctrine: 0.66*0.66*0.66=    0.29 / in Rapid: 0.58

 

Chainswords (3 attacks)

Tactical Doctrine: 3*0.833*0.66*0.833= 1.37

Assault Doctrine: 3*0.833*0.66=            1.65

 

+++++

 

Blood Claw:

Bolt Pistols:

Tactical Doctrine: 0.66*0.66*0.66=  0.29

Assault Doctrine: 0.66*0.66*0.833= 0.36

 

Chainswords (4 attacks)

Tactical Doctrine: 3*0.833*0.66*0.833= 1.83

Assault Doctrine: 3*0.833*0.66=            2.2

+++++

 

Grey Hunter Total:

Tactical Doctrine: 2.16 / 2.52

Assault Doctrine: 1.94 / 2.23

 

Blood Claw Total:

Tactical Doctrine: 2.12

Assault Doctrine: 2.56

Grey Hunters win out when outputting in Tactical Doctrine and if the Blood Claws don't charge (eg, if they Intervene)

 

+++

 

Vs MEQs (T4, 3+)

Grey Hunters:

Bolters 

Tactical Doctrine: 0.66*0.5*0.5=   0.17 / in Rapid: 0.34

Assault Doctrine: 0.66*0.5*0.33= 0.11 / in Rapid: 0.22

 

Chainswords (3 attacks)

Tactical Doctrine: 3*0.833*0.5*0.5=   0.63

Assault Doctrine: 3*0.833*0.5*0.66= 0.83

 

+++++

 

Blood Claw:

Bolt Pistols:

Tactical Doctrine: 0.66*0.5*0.5=   0.11

Assault Doctrine: 0.66*0.5*0.33= 0.17

 

Chainswords (4 attacks)

Tactical Doctrine: 4*0.833*0.5*0.5=   0.833

Assault Doctrine: 4*0.833*0.5*0.66= 1.1

+++++

 

Grey Hunter Total:

Tactical Doctrine: 0.8 / 1.14

Assault Doctrine: 0.94 / 1.05

 

Blood Claw Total:

Tactical Doctrine: 0.94

Assault Doctrine: 1.27

Blood Claws are pretty convincingly better vs MEQs on the charge, although they do lose in a short-range Tactical Doctrine engagement compared to Grey Hunters.

 

Edited November 12, 2020 by Kallas

[TiguriusX]

It is a balance between Battalion troop tax and efficient usage of points/force organization slots

 

How much are you investing to make a shooty GH squad with special weapons?

 

If you spend anywhere close to 120 points the #1 comparison is the undercosted but effective Eradicator (I agree it needs a points nerf but we deal with the rules as is)

 

9 T5 wounds and 6 infantry killing shots out to 24" is superior to a 5 man GH squad unless you add a terminator pack leader...but that just means points are piling up

 

Most SW aren't using all their heavy slots anymore so there is room for eradicators in most lists

 

 

The other issue is delivery. Sure GH can use transportation...but what is the cost.

 

As a 1 off addition they are just meh...blood claws are almost always the better choice

 

I think GH only make sense if you build your entire list around them and flexibility

 

@kallas I know you had an armored transport list in past editions. I think that is one of the few lists where GH make sense.

 

Spam those razorbacks and overwhelm mid board

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

IMO FabulousRex I think review sites rate grey hunters below Intercessors for 2 reasons.

 

1) Intercessors are a very straightforward unit. They have a defined role that is easy to explain, is important in 9th, and doesn't require much support. It makes them a very safe choice to recommend, especially for new players.

 

2) Grey hunter's flexibility is hard to put a fair value on. Both you and Tigurius X are adjusting the unit to fit the needs of your respective lists but your going in different directions to do so. This leads to a unit that is very difficult to judge in a vacuum, and that isn't going to lead to good reviews.

 

Edit: Kallas posted while I was writing this one, and he is planning on a playstyle that benefits grey hunters, and I think it underscores how tough of a unit they can be to just throw out a rating for. Mainly because recommending specific builds can be risky.

Edited November 12, 2020 by Jorin Helm-splitter

[Kallas]

I do think Blood Claws are a very strong unit now, largely because they got buffed up to BS3+, can pack in special weapons, and have improved melee power. Claws are definitely the biggest hurdle for Hunters, as they are extremely close in capability now, or at least they can be equipped identically bar the Bolters/bolt Pistols.

 

It feels to me like Hunters are the midfield objective holders, while Claws are the aggressive objective takers. Bolter Discipline and Hunters Unleashed will let Hunters sit on an objective, fire away decently and then punish any enemy ObSec units that think about trying to take it back, while the Claws push on and keep the pressure up.

 

+++

Thinking about it more, I think a combination of both units is better, which is a good thing, rather than any one unit being 'the best.'

[Squark]

Hunters are slightly less good than Claws but far from useless IMO. S4 AP 0 bolters are probably a bit out of fashion

This is the problem. A boltgun simply does not offer enough firepower to be worth using on a Space Marine (Boltguns were barely worth it for codex marine scouts in 8th edition). And now that blood Claws don't have to charge (Headstrong dicates who you charge if you choose too, but does not force you to declare a charge), they're as good at shooting (meaningful guns) as Grey Hunters, while being better in assault and costing less. Edited November 12, 2020 by Squark

[Kallas]

One thing I just noticed, looking over the Claws and Hunter datasheets:

Blood Claws give up their Chainswords to equip a special weapon; Grey Hunters don't.

 

This isn't a particularly huge issue, Claws are still great, but it does mean that MSU Hunters with specials vs MSU Claws with specials is somewhat in favour of the Hunters.

 

Large squads of Claws probably don't care about the loss of a few attacks and the loss of AP on the remaining attacks of those models, but it is worth bearing in mind. 

[Squark]

One thing I just noticed, looking over the Claws and Hunter datasheets:

Blood Claws give up their Chainswords to equip a special weapon; Grey Hunters don't.

 

This isn't a particularly huge issue, Claws are still great, but it does mean that MSU Hunters with specials vs MSU Claws with specials is somewhat in favour of the Hunters.

 

Large squads of Claws probably don't care about the loss of a few attacks and the loss of AP on the remaining attacks of those models, but it is worth bearing in mind. 

 

Actually, you end up with the same number of chainsword attacks (4 Grey Hunters making 3 attacks vs. 3 Blood Claws making 4), but the Blood Claws Pack Leader also gets an extra attack with his powerfist, while the 3 AP- attacks from the special weapons Claw mostly cancel out the extra shots from boltgun vs. Bolt pistol. Add in the 5 point chainsword tax, and the only reason I can see to take Grey Hunters is in 10 man squads in 100% drop pod armies (If you're dropping only some of the army, I'd rather use Long Fangs and Company Veterans)

[Kallas]

Actually, you end up with the same number of chainsword attacks (4 Grey Hunters making 3 attacks vs. 3 Blood Claws making 4), but the Blood Claws Pack Leader also gets an extra attack with his powerfist, while the 3 AP- attacks from the special weapons Claw mostly cancel out the extra shots from boltgun vs. Bolt pistol. Add in the 5 point chainsword tax, and the only reason I can see to take Grey Hunters is in 10 man squads in 100% drop pod armies (If you're dropping only some of the army, I'd rather use Long Fangs and Company Veterans)

 

Yeah, was just working out the numbers of that.

 

The big advantage of the Hunters, then, is their range. They can sit on midfield objectives and contribute fully with Bolter Discipline and threaten units that come to them. They 'feel' to me as a more reactionary unit, where Claws are more of an aggressive unit.

 

Claws are almost exclusively 12" range. Hunters can sit back at 13-24" and contribute, while still packing some special weapons to make them more dangerous. The Claws do make up the number of attacks difference, but they must be close to do so (and it relies on Berserk Charge). When Claws are on the defensive (ie, they get charged or need to hold an objective) they are not able to contribute very much.

[TiguriusX]

 

 

Actually, you end up with the same number of chainsword attacks (4 Grey Hunters making 3 attacks vs. 3 Blood Claws making 4), but the Blood Claws Pack Leader also gets an extra attack with his powerfist, while the 3 AP- attacks from the special weapons Claw mostly cancel out the extra shots from boltgun vs. Bolt pistol. Add in the 5 point chainsword tax, and the only reason I can see to take Grey Hunters is in 10 man squads in 100% drop pod armies (If you're dropping only some of the army, I'd rather use Long Fangs and Company Veterans)

Yeah, was just working out the numbers of that.

 

The big advantage of the Hunters, then, is their range. They can sit on midfield objectives and contribute fully with Bolter Discipline and threaten units that come to them. They 'feel' to me as a more reactionary unit, where Claws are more of an aggressive unit.

 

Claws are almost exclusively 12" range. Hunters can sit back at 13-24" and contribute, while still packing some special weapons to make them more dangerous. The Claws do make up the number of attacks difference, but they must be close to do so (and it relies on Berserk Charge). When Claws are on the defensive (ie, they get charged or need to hold an objective) they are not able to contribute very much.

I see GH the same way. They are a reaction force best suited for standing still and using bolters at range.

 

The natural following up question is whether investing points for Intercessor guns makes a better unit.

 

My battalion is out of points so it was either BC or GH riding in a razorback to try and grab objectives. I chose GH and their bolters because it fit the job I use them for.

Edited November 12, 2020 by TiguriusX

[Commander_Moustache]

I see this every time theres a new book. Are Grey Hunters still relivant? And I have yet to see a time when they are not, for largely the same reason. Grey hunters have and will always be kings of the mid-field. With their mobility (Rhinos, Razors or Pods), Short-Mid range firepower (2 special weapons, a combi on the wolf guard, and a plasma pistol for taste), Close-combat (Chainswords, pistols, 2 special close combat weapons), Wolf standard is cheap and can potentially save you a command point, and finally, their position as troops. For a long time they were a requirement, and even now when you can make proper battle forged armies without troops, with Obsec being a thing, troops still have their place in any army.

 

Blood Claws are better in melee, but only when charging. If you need to hold an objective and not run off after an enemy, the guys with pistols arent really doing much. They are a little cheaper if you dont have chainswords on the Grey Hunters, but more on that later.

 

Intercessors have better firepower standard, but are more exspensive, though this flips if you pay for special weapons, and are always worse in melee.

Assault Intercessors lack the ranged firepower, about equal to bloodclaws (Better pistols, lack of special), and are about equal in melee (more attacks, Lacking the second special).

Heavy Intercessors have LOTS of ranged firepower and are very tough to shift, but are only as good as regular Intercessors when it comes to melee, and cost a loard more.

And and all three pay more for mobility. Impulsers are exspensive, low capacity (And cant carry Gravis), and low firepower unless you put more into it, or the really exspensive Repulser which compares to the Land Raider.

 

Both Infiltraters and Incurcers are about equal. Ones better in Melee, ones better at shooting, but neither does better than Grey hunters, who can do both at once. They do have advancing set up, which gets the to the midfield without the need for a transport, and they both have some unique fun stuff which could tip a game.

 

 

Now, this is not to say that Grey Hunters are the be all and end all of course. You have to pay 20, 30 maybe even 40 more points per unit to really get this versetile package. If you have the points they can do any role, very well, they just cant do it the same as a more specialised unit.

[FabulousRex]

Excellent points being made here! Grey Hunters seemed more subjective than I thought. It really feels like the squad has Option Overload. Though I'm seeing a trend towards 10 man squads armed to the teeth, or 6 with a few toys in a Razorback.

 

One thing I noticed is that Grey Hunters are truly unique. No other Troops choice in the game can tackle a Grey Hunter squad 1 on 1, you need to send Elites and hq support to wipe some Hunters. And the opponent MUST wipe them out in one go, or suffer the wrath of the special and melee Weapons embedded in the squad. 2 GHs left to fight or shoot back can do an awful lot of damage.

[Karack Blackstone]

Tactical Marines are the SM rank and file.

 

Grey Hunters don't get a Heavy so they can both move and threaten. Need to park a pack, lay down support fire past 12"? GH's. Need to move, shoot pistols, and launch an assault? GH's still get more overall access to combat roles and tasks. BC's are stronger on assault. Intercessors shoot better, sure.

 

Only GH's are the better "Do it all" Tactical Marine.

 

Tac's with Chainswords given for +1 point, not replacing anything a normal Tac would get otherwise. Boltgun, Bolt Pistol, AND CSwd, nothing lost.

As noted, Blood Claws must give up a weapon for a Special, either ranged or melee.

 

When in doubt, or with spare points for a pick-up do anything pack?

 

Grey Hunters.

 

The objectively better Tactical Marine, as they can ALL be given a Chainsword for just 1 point more, and tooled to taste at will. Each pack.

[Dark Shepherd]

I knew Wolf Guard Pack leaders didnt benefit from Bezerk Charge but looking at Lukas' datasheet they dont get to reroll close combat attacks either

 

Lukas is such a good elite slot and BC buffer hes a plus for BC v GH

 

Id still lean towards WGPLTDASS being last to die rather than bullet catchers unless theres a lot of meltas coming their way...speaking of...Eradicators will definitely go up in points (and BGV)

[Bryan Blaire]

Okay, this ticks me off: Index Astartes: Tome Keepers Preview

 

I get GW's no model, no rules policy (well, I don't, but I know it's a thing I can't change), but seriously, these no-name chump-buckets get to have a Primaris Captain with a master-crafted power axe, and yet GW couldn't find it in their infinite wisdom or model making routine to freakin' give the Space Wolves Primaris Wolf Lord one!? :cuss :cuss :cuss

 

Now I feel like asking if they are planning on Errata'ing the data sheet.

[killersquid]

Okay, this ticks me off: Index Astartes: Tome Keepers Preview

 

I get GW's no model, no rules policy (well, I don't, but I know it's a thing I can't change), but seriously, these no-name chump-buckets get to have a Primaris Captain with a master-crafted power axe, and yet GW couldn't find it in their infinite wisdom or model making routine to freakin' give the Space Wolves Primaris Wolf Lord one!?

 

Now I feel like asking if they are planning on Errata'ing the data sheet.

 

 

I'd wait until the magazine is out before getting too worked up. White Dwarf has often put out narrative datasheets made for studio conversions, which are only intended for fun. Official kits only get rules for what the kit comes with, as frustrating as that may be, that's not going to change.

[Dark Shepherd]

It is dumb that we cant field the Battler Leader as a Wolflord

[Bryan Blaire]

I'd wait until the magazine is out before getting too worked up. White Dwarf has often put out narrative datasheets made for studio conversions, which are only intended for fun. Official kits only get rules for what the kit comes with, as frustrating as that may be, that's not going to change.

:tu: Yep, everything that I said...

 

Again, we could all come up with our own "for fun" data sheets - except this one is "officially published" by the company. Doesn't matter if it's only for open play, only published in their magazine, or anything else, it's still :cuss frustrating to see. They could have very easily slipped an axe onto the Primaris upgrade sprue instead of the chainsword.

 

I agree that what's done is done - that doesn't stop it from being :cuss .

[Havok13]

Just noticed Ulriks crozious has better stats than all SM chaplains. Nice little boost if you can remember it. I thought GW were streamlining everything?

[Bryan Blaire]

Just noticed Ulriks crozious has better stats than all SM chaplains. Nice little boost if you can remember it. I thought GW were streamlining everything?

It's an "Artificer Crozius", so technically it's a different one from those the rest of the Chaplains have.

 

And if GW streamlines everything, how can they sell us books that will be useless in 6 months to a year? :lol:

[StrangerOrders]

 

Just noticed Ulriks crozious has better stats than all SM chaplains. Nice little boost if you can remember it. I thought GW were streamlining everything?

It's an "Artificer Crozius", so technically it's a different one from those the rest of the Chaplains have.

And if GW streamlines everything, how can they sell us books that will be useless in 6 months to a year? :lol:

Tbf, its pretty genius. Make a ton of stuff, streamline it all into one to make the others useless in one fell swoop, repeat. Its a very profitable ouroboros imo.

 

Jests aside, Im pleased with the supplement. Hounds seem absolutely horrible unless you are drowning in psykers and want to hard-counter said-meta to death, or you are a true Son of Russ and want to make sure your local TS player know you hate them.

 

Everything else seems pleasing though, just really wish Primaris Wolf Lords could take axes. Im sort of miffed about their new chapter having a kitbashed character with one lol.

[GrFlur]

Tactical Marines are the SM rank and file.

 

Grey Hunters don't get a Heavy so they can both move and threaten. Need to park a pack, lay down support fire past 12"? GH's. Need to move, shoot pistols, and launch an assault? GH's still get more overall access to combat roles and tasks. BC's are stronger on assault. Intercessors shoot better, sure.

 

Only GH's are the better "Do it all" Tactical Marine.

 

Tac's with Chainswords given for +1 point, not replacing anything a normal Tac would get otherwise. Boltgun, Bolt Pistol, AND CSwd, nothing lost.

As noted, Blood Claws must give up a weapon for a Special, either ranged or melee.

 

When in doubt, or with spare points for a pick-up do anything pack?

 

Grey Hunters.

 

The objectively better Tactical Marine, as they can ALL be given a Chainsword for just 1 point more, and tooled to taste at will. Each pack.

 

And after reading this I can't take off the Ghostbusters song of my head...

 

Who are you gonna call??? Grey Hunters !!!!