Upcoming Supplement

[PeteySödes]

Agreed on it generally being weaker but using the tools mentioned above like AoR and judicars spread out among the front line really could see it being a huge threat.

[Dark Shepherd]

I forgot to check, are Blood Claw family back to BS4+?

 

Lukas is an autoinclude now IMO. Stick him beside a pack with 2 Power fists and wreck some face

 

Long Fangs/stationary fire support has been nerfed by the terrain rules, shame as they and Wulfen were the 8th ed MVPs for me

[NatBrannigan]

The free 6” Heroic Intervention makes Judiciars and anyone with the armour of Russ a nightmare to play around. That said there are a lot of ways to make your opponents fight last or you to fight first so I’m not sure a Judiciar is even required now. Tasty stuff.

 

I think the biggest hit for us competitively is the loss of Apothecaries, although I suspect they’ll be toned down at some point. I was hoping you could take a Wolf Priest who specialised in yelling and smashing (using the Chaplain data sheet) or one who specialised in healing (using the Apothacary datasheet) but I can live without one.

[VIth]

To combine some of the points others have made, in general, I think most of our combats will be against units that *do not* want to fight us. When there is a scary melee threat, you have to play smarter and leverage both the Judiciar and the Armor of Russ, and those two characters can HI 6” for free.

 

Being able to HI and not be hit back isn’t the devastating lose some people seem to think it is (and was a crappy mechanic for your opponent). AoR and Judiciar ability both negate chargers.

 

Here’s a great article that addresses it.

https://www.goonhammer.com/ruleshammer-unusual-fight-phases-what-units-come-first-last-in-the-middle/

 

 

The free 6” Heroic Intervention makes Judiciars and anyone with the armour of Russ a nightmare to play around. That said there are a lot of ways to make your opponents fight last or you to fight first so I’m not sure a Judiciar is even required now. Tasty stuff.

I think the biggest hit for us competitively is the loss of Apothecaries, although I suspect they’ll be toned down at some point. I was hoping you could take a Wolf Priest who specialised in yelling and smashing (using the Chaplain data sheet) or one who specialised in healing (using the Apothacary datasheet) but I can live without one.

100% agree. Was actually hoping the exact same thing re Wolf Priests; that or just have them only be able to do one function. Edited October 31, 2020 by VIth

[Karhedron]

I think we can take Primaris Apothecaries (unless I am missing something). Whilst more restrictive than the Firstborn variant, at least we still have access to healing and Master Apothecary if we want it.

[Bulwyf]

I am disappointed to see Touch of the Wild and Emperor's Executioners go. Wulfen were not helped at all by the supplement so they are still worthless to take.

 

I am not sure why my friend thought I would "love" this supplement. It is just ok. We have been grossly toned down in a lot of ways. I was hoping for Wulfen support and ways to get our guys into combat easier and quicker. Except for one warlord trait and the two units that get the advance and charge rules I'm not seeing that. 

 

For one of the premier melee armies in the game at least according to fluff we still aren't as good in melee as White Scars for example. The seeming intention to try and scare people away from our units with this HI chapter tactic and armor of russ is so limited in scope. If this was 8th edition it would be great. But it isn't. You fight last if you HI in 9th and the opponent gets to hit YOU first. I know about the armor of russ. That's just one part of the map or one objective that can affect. Any opponent that knows how to move their units will not be bothered by HI. I've played several games in 9th with my SW and the HI almost never comes into play.

 

We definitely remain the weakest Space Marine Chapter so I guess this is where GW sees us since this is now two editions and two codexes in a row that puts us in that position. 

 

My friend thought I would love the Crusade stuff to clarify my above comment. I don't care at all about Crusade since it only uses Power Levels which is a system I would never use. I will never play Crusade. Good stuff for those who do like it apparently. That explains that mystery.

[VIth]

We are, objectively, the best performing Space Marine army of 9th edition at tournaments so far.

 

Edit: I note again, as I did when the chapter tactics were revealed, that 9th edition is all about controlling objectives. Your opponent *has* to come to contest or seize control of your objectives (which are nearly universally centrally located) or they will lose the game.

Edited October 31, 2020 by VIth

[Squark]

I think we can take Primaris Apothecaries (unless I am missing something). Whilst more restrictive than the Firstborn variant, at least we still have access to healing and Master Apothecary if we want it.

There's an argument to be made that we can take Primaris Apothecaries, but that argument also excludes ALL Primaris Apothecaries from becoming Chief Apothecaries or using the Combat Revival Strategem (You know, the thing everyone wants from them in the first place). By strict RAW, we can take Primaris Apothecaries because they have the Primaris Apothecary keyword instead of the Apothecary keyword. However, to become Chief Apothecary or use the Combat Revival strategem, you must have the Apothecary keyword. So no chief apothecaries or battlefield resuscitations for us. But everyone else's Primaris Apothecaries being unable to do these things seems... in error. Furthermore, it's worth point out that the official app shows Primaris Apothecaries having just the Apothecary keyword, which strongly suggests the codex's keyword confusion is just an editing error.

 

It's far more likely GW screwed up, than that they intended for Primaris Apothecaries to be available to Space Wolves but also massively worse than their firstborn counterparts.

Edited October 31, 2020 by Squark

[Dark Shepherd]

For HI we can use it to bully the opposition off or away from objectives. If we can get a few inches on the oppositions side of an objective they might be forced to charge to contest or to avail of their objective secured

 

If terrain allows you can screen past objectives/corral enemy forces

[Guest Triszin]

For HI we can use it to bully the opposition off or away from objectives. If we can get a few inches on the oppositions side of an objective they might be forced to charge to contest or to avail of their objective secured

 

If terrain allows you can screen past objectives/corral enemy forces

wolf guard with P-fists and Meltas.

 

kill us long range or not at all?

[Valerian]

To combine some of the points others have made, in general, I think most of our combats will be against units that *do not* want to fight us. When there is a scary melee threat, you have to play smarter and leverage both the Judiciar and the Armor of Russ, and those two characters can HI 6” for free.

 

Being able to HI and not be hit back isn’t the devastating lose some people seem to think it is (and was a crappy mechanic for your opponent). AoR and Judiciar ability both negate chargers.

 

Here’s a great article that addresses it.

https://www.goonhammer.com/ruleshammer-unusual-fight-phases-what-units-come-first-last-in-the-middle/

 

 

 

 

That was written in 8e, though.  Is everything working the same in 9e, with regards to those interactions?  Maybe they are, but I don't have the brain-power to figure it out right now.  

[VIth]

Here’s a Goonhammer Q&A on HI from September 2020. Remains the case that units that were made to or naturally “Fight Last” are placed in the the final group that will fight at the end of the fight phase along with any other “Fight Last” opponents (alternating between players).

https://www.goonhammer.com/ruleshammer-qa-september-17th-2020/

 

So you can’t HI into your opponent in his turn and kill a bunch of stuff while he can’t attack you, but you can heroically intervene in his turn, active a Judiciar or AoR to make him fight last, then attack before “Fight Last” unit does (unless I’m someone majorly missing something).

Edited October 31, 2020 by VIth

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I am disappointed to see Touch of the Wild and Emperor's Executioners go. Wulfen were not helped at all by the supplement so they are still worthless to take.

 

I am not sure why my friend thought I would "love" this supplement. It is just ok. We have been grossly toned down in a lot of ways. I was hoping for Wulfen support and ways to get our guys into combat easier and quicker. Except for one warlord trait and the two units that get the advance and charge rules I'm not seeing that.

 

For one of the premier melee armies in the game at least according to fluff we still aren't as good in melee as White Scars for example. The seeming intention to try and scare people away from our units with this HI chapter tactic and armor of russ is so limited in scope. If this was 8th edition it would be great. But it isn't. You fight last if you HI in 9th and the opponent gets to hit YOU first. I know about the armor of russ. That's just one part of the map or one objective that can affect. Any opponent that knows how to move their units will not be bothered by HI. I've played several games in 9th with my SW and the HI almost never comes into play.

 

We definitely remain the weakest Space Marine Chapter so I guess this is where GW sees us since this is now two editions and two codexes in a row that puts us in that position.

 

My friend thought I would love the Crusade stuff to clarify my above comment. I don't care at all about Crusade since it only uses Power Levels which is a system I would never use. I will never play Crusade. Good stuff for those who do like it apparently. That explains that mystery.

I agree that Wulfen got knocked in the teeth this edition there isn't any way around that.

 

That said space wolves have been winning/placing in events at better rate than most other marine armies this entire edition. Just look at sites like goonhammer where they breakdown tournament results. This stayed consistent when we switched to the index, and I don't see why it would change now. The sample size is small enough we may be over rated but we're definitely not the worst.

 

I think it's to early to rank us vs scars in melee but as someone who has used WS rules thunderwolves, AoR, and murderous hurricane are going to be big problems for WS players. WS don't win by fighting fair and the more tricks an opponent has the harder it is to leverage speed.

 

On the crusade front most people use points it's fairly easy to convert 1 PL basically equals 20 points. You really should give it a try, it just seems like you've been frustrated with the hobby for awhile and maybe a new format would help.

[Bulwyf]

We are, objectively, the best performing Space Marine army of 9th edition at tournaments so far.

 

Edit: I note again, as I did when the chapter tactics were revealed, that 9th edition is all about controlling objectives. Your opponent *has* to come to contest or seize control of your objectives (which are nearly universally centrally located) or they will lose the game.

 

That was before the nerfs that came down for the tournament success of SW. In 8th edition we were by FAR the worst army. The couple of months of pre SM codex/errata in 9th will be remembered as a thing of legend very soon.

 

I have played a lot of games in 9th. I have several armies that I play. I have seen HI on my SW come into play where it was actually a benefit for me to do it exactly twice in about a dozen games. HI doesn't help you when your opponent just shoots things off the board. HI doesn't help you when they know how to correctly move and charge units to avoid HI. I have actually had more times when the opponent tried to goad ME into doing HI because they knew if I did they would kill off the character or unit before they could swing at them.

 

This whole "wow we can HI with everything!" only sounds good in theory. 

[Dark Shepherd]

Goonhammer do a weekly tournament roundup, Wolves came top 4 in another RTT recently

 

Still good even without obsec mistake

[VIth]

You know that all this data is quantifiable, right? We weren’t the worst army in 8th edition. And what “nerfs” are you referring to? Losing the 8th edition rules? We’re #4 of all the Space Marines since then.

 

Interesting you’ve only had it do anything twice. My IG and Tau opponents choose not to contest my objectives because they don’t want me to heroically intervene into them, and try instead to shoot me off (not the same effect with Chaos and Orks, haha). At best, I remain in control and they don’t contest it; at worst, they shoot me off the objective but they’re not controlling it either. I didn’t “use” the HI portion of our chapter tactic, but it benefited me. I’m not sure how +1 to wound or +1 damage in Turns 3-5 would have served me better at controlling an objective.

Edited October 31, 2020 by VIth

[Bulwyf]

You know that all this data is quantifiable, right? We weren’t the worst army in 8th edition. And what “nerfs” are you referring to? Losing the 8th edition rules? We’re #4 of all the Space Marines since then.

 

Interesting you’ve only had it do anything twice. My IG and Tau opponents choose not to contest my objectives because they don’t want me to heroically intervene into them, and try instead to shoot me off (not the same effect with Chaos and Orks, haha). At best, I remain in control and they don’t contest it; at worst, they shoot me off the objective but they’re not controlling it either. I didn’t “use” the HI portion of our chapter tactic, but it benefited me. I’m not sure how +1 to wound or +1 damage in Turns 3-5 would have served me better at controlling an objective.

 

Tournament results throughout 8th edition showed SW as the lowest performing army. There were tournaments where people didn't even bring them. Every tier system different review sites did had SW in the bottom tier throughout 8th edition. 

 

The nerfs I'm talking about are all the nerfs to SM in general in the SM codex and afterwards like CORE, no more rerolls, etc. Then you had the errata and now supplement doubling down on nerfs to Wulfen, Wolf Priests, Long Fangs etc.  

 

Our unique units were nerfed to being either unplayable, the same as everyone else (Long Fangs) or just flat out worse versions (Wolf Priests were nerfed by the litany system then nerfed again by removing their healing ability).  Even the TWC lost their death grip or whatever it was called strat from PA.  Even Long Wolves are now gone.

 

We basically are a very vanilla army with an outright useless chapter tactic in HI and the removal of so much of our unique flavor. I'm sitting here thinking about what to bring in a list now and I'm having to cross out several units. Wulfen? Gone. Stormwolf? Gone. Wolf priest? Gone. TWC? Maybe. I guess I can run around some Dreads...like any other chapter can do. 

[VIth]

We were 5th from the bottom for the entire year of 2019, better than Blood Angels, Grey Knights, Tyranids, and Dark Angels. We’re middle of the pack for 2020 (too busy to pull pre-9th data but believe it’s the same).

 

And, despite the “nerf” (that every SM player experiences), we are #1 SM faction cumulatively throughout 9th and #4 SM faction since the new Codex dropped.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Yeah, SW were not great, but were not GK/DA tier for 8E.

[Dark Shepherd]

There also has to be skew of when a faction is underperforming or perceived as bad then theyre taken far less (by serious players) and people take other armies, which is also going to cause a swing in the other direction if those other/common armies are in the opposite position

[Ragnar69]

I haven't played in nearly a year since I usualy play in tournaments and they all got cancelled thanks to Nurgle. So I can't really comment by experience. But all the competetive guys I watch/read really hype HI and rate SW at the top SM tier. And I thinks thats true. Even if we can't use the rule, the enemy is hampered by it's mere existing. And if we do a HI, then he is either already in combat and has now to face another unit, making it more likely that we can hurt him in return, or he wasn't in combat and just tried to steal an objective. That means he hasn't charged and we start first to fight with non-chargers. Besides, there are now MANY ways to make him strike last: Armor of Russ, Judiciar, Murderous Hurricane, Whirwind strat

 

The Core nerf does really only affect Wulfen for us as we didn't have centurions and rarely used tanks. And nearly all other Marine nerfs targeted special chapter shenangians that we couldn't do, like advancing Agressors and still double firing and then even stacking Mortal wounds on top.

 

For me, the litanies are an upgrade to the old Wolf Priest. Having +2 to charge is way better than re-roll all melee attacks as I usually had a Wolf lord near the important units so all it actually did was re-roll 2s for hammers/fists.

 

Wulfen have been hit realy hard, true. Too hard I would say. But I don't think that they are useless or unplayable, they still hit like a truck and are reasonably priced with axes. But they are far from an auto-iclude now which I think is good. There is so much cool stuff that I don't really miss them and they really have been obnoxious to play against.

 

Long Fangs losing their re-rolls suck, killed my plasma cannon squad. But they are still flavorfull. Still can take 5 heavy weapons + 2 specials  + storm shield and can move and shoot without penalty for 1 CP instead of 2 for Devastators. And they still have LD8 even when the leader is killed

 

Fliers being overpriced seems to be a trend across all factions. Can't say that I'm unhappy about it. I like the models and own 2, but fliers don't really fit well with the scale of the game.

 

TWC are awesome now and BCs and GHs are solid. WG in all variants are great and still as flexible as ever. I played SW since 1994 and I don't see any less flavour than before. Hoestly, I'm pleasently surprised how much flavor they have retained after being swallowed by the vanilla dex and all that Primaris homogenisation. And it's been ages since I used a frost weapon, and even longer that I used more than one. I really have no problem with them being a (really good) relic.

 

All in all, way better than our 7th and 8th edition dexes (and 4th ;) ) and I'm really exited

[Bulwyf]

Just to be clear I'm not saying the supplement is bad. I think it is ok. Not good or bad just average. There are definite negatives and definite positives.

[VIth]

100% agree, Ragnar. (Although I have been able to get about seven games in of 9th plus five Crusade games.)

[StrangerOrders]

Hmm... On the whole this looks quite good and I cant say that I am not shocked by that fact. More glad that they seem to still be properly flavorful.

 

Are the Spears the only successors still or have they given us more official ones? I know the idea is for us to make the bulk obviously but I ask for 'chances of coming up in future books' reasons.

 

Id frankly really like a chapter or two on the subject, its a fantastic source for some writing and I hope we get it. Without the caveat of getting our fangs ripped out that is the norm in HH, more the 40k 'actually awesome' variety lol.

 

Edit: The jab was at the HH novels folks, Wolves in Inferno absolutely kick butt.

Edited October 31, 2020 by StrangerOrders

[VIth]

The updated Wolf Spears fluff is strikingly similar to my all-Primaris chapter. Grim, fleet-based jerks. I really like it.