Space Wolf Geneseed and Trefoil Legion Theories

[jaxom]

I know the Trefoil legions were raised and trained in secrecy, the implication being that they had roles other than just straight forward conquest. I don't recall mention of genetic manipulation though. At least, none above and beyond the geneseed they inherited from their Primarchs. Feel free to correct me if I missed it somewhere.

 

It's the Wolves and Salamanders in particular that push that portion. Each has something unique that is unlike any of the other chapters. The Wolves have the Canis Helix, resulting in enhanced enhanced-senses and a greater pack mentality, their intra-squad coordination is ridiculous because of the way the two intertwine. Meanwhile, the Salamanders have coal-black skin, glowing red eyes, and an enhanced resistance to radiation. The Alpha Legion has the only Twin Primarch - it may be that what genetic shenanigans led to the primarch blastula to split (oooooh, just got how that links to the hydra) is an inherent part of the legion?

[StrangerOrders]

 

I know the Trefoil legions were raised and trained in secrecy, the implication being that they had roles other than just straight forward conquest. I don't recall mention of genetic manipulation though. At least, none above and beyond the geneseed they inherited from their Primarchs. Feel free to correct me if I missed it somewhere.

 

It's the Wolves and Salamanders in particular that push that portion. Each has something unique that is unlike any of the other chapters. The Wolves have the Canis Helix, resulting in enhanced enhanced-senses and a greater pack mentality, their intra-squad coordination is ridiculous because of the way the two intertwine. Meanwhile, the Salamanders have coal-black skin, glowing red eyes, and an enhanced resistance to radiation. The Alpha Legion has the only Twin Primarch - it may be that what genetic shenanigans led to the primarch blastula to split (oooooh, just got how that links to the hydra) is an inherent part of the legion?

 

Worth noting that the Sallies also have a noted and ridiculous pain tolerance, par with the DG.

 

Its also noted that their supernatural resilience is explicitly coupled with a bizarrely persistent mental archetype. Their near suicidal tendencies do form a pretty big portion of the Terran story. Coupled with the Emp's reaction to the Tempest Gallery losses makes me think there is some tinkering there.

 

I know the Trefoil legions were raised and trained in secrecy, the implication being that they had roles other than just straight forward conquest. I don't recall mention of genetic manipulation though. At least, none above and beyond the geneseed they inherited from their Primarchs. Feel free to correct me if I missed it somewhere.

Thats sort of the thing across all three appendices.

 

We literally know nothing about their creation, which is quite telling given AK's usual level of access to those early records. They could be heavily modified or they could not, only the Emp and the researchers (like a certain someone's meal) would really know.

 

But as far as the Wolf angle, the key point is that this includes their gene-seed data. There is nothing for someone trying to reverse engineer the gene-seed or to puzzle out the wulfen to work with. 

 

Heck, Russ was told about the problem by the Emp but its worth noting from his Primarch novel that the Wolf Priests, their medicae for the purposes of this discussion, did not even know this could be an issue. Given how competent we know apothecaries are in general and their role, I am assuming that this means that no one outside of the Emp's lab staff would actually be able to get any data to work with, unlike the other bloodlines. 

 

I tend to assume this applies for the rest of the trefoil, although the Alpha Legion somehow figured out how to reverse-engineer Gal Vorbak so it is nebulous if they know something. Its also a nice opening to explain why until now there were no confirmed Sally successors and the Black Dragons came out so weird (if the speculation is true), maybe the BDs are the result of trying to mess with a bloodline you actually dont have good data for?

 

But probably the bigger issue for our purposes is the lack of any data to work with unless you are Cawl or the Emp. Although it is entirely possible some other researcher of the Emp's cadres survived, I am skeptical of that though.

Edited October 29, 2020 by StrangerOrders

[Wispy]

 

 

On the topic of the sons of Russ, the Space Wolves are no longer the only ones! That’s right, the genius of Belisarius Cawl has seen the creation of a number of successor Chapters who bear the gene-seed of Leman Russ. We’re pretty sure we even saw an appearance by the Wolfspear in the new codex expansion… So, for the first time, there are also guidelines for fielding Space Wolves successors in battle.

By far my fvorite reveal from that article, hopefully we get to see more than just the Spears...

 

 

There's nothing Do It All Cawl can't fix. Have a staple feature of your beloved Chapter's lore for around thirty years or so? Have no fear! Do It All Cawl can change it to make you the same as every other vanilla chapter. 

 

 

 

I said this before but i don't think that's fair. The Wolf Spear successor has been well foreshadowed in Guy Haley's Dark Imperium novel... So this doesn't come from nowhere, it's been well setup, and if anything, more information on these Wolf successors has been highly anticipated for a couple years now.

[Guest Triszin]

its also no secret they've tried to make successors before.

 

they wanted to encircle the eye of terror, specifically with space wolves and wolf successors.

[Bulwyf]

 

 

 

On the topic of the sons of Russ, the Space Wolves are no longer the only ones! That’s right, the genius of Belisarius Cawl has seen the creation of a number of successor Chapters who bear the gene-seed of Leman Russ. We’re pretty sure we even saw an appearance by the Wolfspear in the new codex expansion… So, for the first time, there are also guidelines for fielding Space Wolves successors in battle.

By far my fvorite reveal from that article, hopefully we get to see more than just the Spears...

 

 

There's nothing Do It All Cawl can't fix. Have a staple feature of your beloved Chapter's lore for around thirty years or so? Have no fear! Do It All Cawl can change it to make you the same as every other vanilla chapter. 

 

 

 

I said this before but i don't think that's fair. The Wolf Spear successor has been well foreshadowed in Guy Haley's Dark Imperium novel... So this doesn't come from nowhere, it's been well setup, and if anything, more information on these Wolf successors has been highly anticipated for a couple years now.

 

 

Your opinion of "well foreshadowed" and mine are vastly different. That terrible novel was a basic advert for how great Primaris are over Firstborn. They threw in the Space Wolf stuff just to show that even Space Wolves had to take on Primaris models in the game. The Primaris guy in that novel was very upset and bitter about not being allowed to be an actual Space Wolf and stuck in a literal out of nowhere new chapter to guard a warp rift instead of joining the Space Wolves. 

 

So no, not well setup. GW went exactly the route I predicted: Do It All Cawl who knows more about space marines than the actual Emperor was able to plot device fix everything with the gene seed, somehow mass produce hundreds of thousands if not millions of Primaris marines and also have brand new gear for each of them plus replacement gear to replace as needed due to battle and wear and tear.

 

GW can't have the SW being the only chapter that doesn't have successors when they want to sell as many toy soldiers as possible to people. I get that from a business perspective but it definitely goes against the established canon of the SW. 

The Imperium clearly doesn't need the Emperor. It just needs Do It All Cawl and his miracle plot device magic to solve any and all issues. 

[StrangerOrders]

You might have missed the last time I quoted you, which is reasonable enough, these are chunky posts.

 

The Emp never wanted Successors in the first place, key point there. He very explicitly went out of his way to ensure that Fenris could supply a Legion in both men and material but he very explicitly made no effort to base the wolves anywhere else. Inferno even notes that the Wolves were explicitely set up to be very insular and that the Emp made no effort to curtail Horus's efforts to isolate them.

 

Cawl is not outdoing the Emp by any measure. Moreso since Cawl took 10k years to arrive in the ballpark of what the Emp achieved with fairly middling effort over four centuries. More to the point, the Emp more or less puppeteered his research department (didnt do alot of favors for their sanity) and more or less set up Cawl. So Cawl isnt outdoing the Emp by any stretch.

 

Also, while I think the Emp's genius is typically downplayed, you kind of have to be very selective to arrive at his genecraft being his only selling point.

 

The Emp also never geared the Astartes, he geared them using the same resource Cawl had 10k years with, the sum knowledge of literally the biggest surviving cache of DAoT knowledge (Sol).

 

Its all in all a very odd comparison to make.

 

You are also missing the biggest problem the Primaris had insetting and one of the biggest problems the Legions had. More numbers tends to reduce individual quality and the shortcuts you have to take to get there are very detrimental.

 

The Primaris are treated very poorly by a great many, Cawl included (see his more or less publicly executing a company just to prove how cool they are while dying). More to the point, its driven home again and again in the BBs that this sort of attitude led to alot of Legions suffering from shoddy Astartes (NLs, IW and early BA) with a host of mental problems.

 

Guilliman and the Lion on the otherhand had such momentum that they could replace 50-90% Legion-loss almost immediately but never tried to exceed their optimal figures too much because they were generally unwilling to compromise on what other Primarchs were willing to. Dorn outright refused speedy methods too.

 

Pert could create Astartes in 8 months with next to no rejection rate, and this lead to his Legion being apathetic towards beating expensive superhumans to death as a matter of course. The NLs have spent 10k years externalizing their shoody-butt production methods onto the rest of the Legions to get away from the fact that they are sort of awful across the board.

 

Thats on the numbers and quality issue.

 

 

Russ on the other hand had such a bad time of it that it took him a half-century to replace even a third of his Legion during one particular battle, and the Heresy violently kicking them in the teeth didnt help this. The Wolves were largely crippled in their ability to have successors by a myriad of factors, their own personal interest was not one of these. I've posted them a few times here and I fear being repetitive with them.

 

I am not sure if you missed it but I did post a somewhat lengthy point-by-point breakdown as to how this was built up and addressed over the last decade. I won't deny you your wright to not be pleased with it but saying it lacks buildup or is unreasonable is a might forced.

 

Now if you are arguing Warcom delivered it with all the grace of a weighted 2-ton honey-glazed ham, then I won't deny you. They sort of wasted a golden opportunity for some well-selling novels on this one.

 

Sadly, it will likely end up like Dark Imperium and Avenging Sons, two good books that really would be more appealing if their publishing order was flipped.

 

The Wolves have had entire novel series of angst about their numbers, trying to plug their lack of Successors and TS's screwing over said efforts. Its established why and how they couldnt and alot of stuff plugs in super-nicely with the Primaris angle, this is really not that much of a jump by any stretch.

Edited October 29, 2020 by StrangerOrders

[Bulwyf]

You might have missed the last time I quoted you, which is reasonable enough, these are chunky posts.

 

The Emp never wanted Successors in the first place, key point there. He very explicitly went out of his way to ensure that Fenris could supply a Legion in both men and material but he very explicitly made no effort to base the wolves anywhere else. Inferno even notes that the Wolves were explicitely set up to be very insular and that the Emp made no effort to curtail Horus's efforts to isolate them.

 

Cawl is not outdoing the Emp by any measure. Moreso since Cawl took 10k years to arrive in the ballpark of what the Emp achieved with fairly middling effort over four centuries. More to the point, the Emp more or less puppeteered his research department (didnt do alot of favors for their sanity) and more or less set up Cawl. So Cawl isnt outdoing the Emp by any stretch.

 

Also, while I think the Emp's genius is typically downplayed, you kind of have to be very selective to arrive at his genecraft being his only selling point.

 

The Emp also never geared the Astartes, he geared them using the same resource Cawl had 10k years with, the sum knowledge of literally the biggest surviving cache of DAoT knowledge (Sol).

 

Its all in all a very odd comparison to make.

 

You are also missing the biggest problem the Primaris had insetting and one of the biggest problems the Legions had. More numbers tends to reduce individual quality and the shortcuts you have to take to get there are very detrimental.

 

The Primaris are treated very poorly by a great many, Cawl included (see his more or less publicly executing a company just to prove how cool they are while dying). More to the point, its driven home again and again in the BBs that this sort of attitude led to alot of Legions suffering from shoddy Astartes (NLs, IW and early BA) with a host of mental problems.

 

Guilliman and the Lion on the otherhand had such momentum that they could replace 50-90% Legion-loss almost immediately but never tried to exceed their optimal figures too much because they were generally unwilling to compromise on what other Primarchs were willing to. Dorn outright refused speedy methods too.

 

Pert could create Astartes in 8 months with next to no rejection rate, and this lead to his Legion being apathetic towards beating expensive superhumans to death as a matter of course. The NLs have spent 10k years externalizing their shoody-butt production methods onto the rest of the Legions to get away from the fact that they are sort of awful across the board.

 

Thats on the numbers and quality issue.

 

 

Russ on the other hand had such a bad time of it that it took him a half-century to replace even a third of his Legion during one particular battle, and the Heresy violently kicking them in the teeth didnt help this. The Wolves were largely crippled in their ability to have successors by a myriad of factors, their own personal interest was not one of these. I've posted them a few times here and I fear being repetitive with them.

 

I am not sure if you missed it but I did post a somewhat lengthy point-by-point breakdown as to how this was built up and addressed over the last decade. I won't deny you your wright to not be pleased with it but saying it lacks buildup or is unreasonable is a might forced.

 

Now if you are arguing Warcom delivered it with all the grace of a weighted 2-ton honey-glazed ham, then I won't deny you. They sort of wasted a golden opportunity for some well-selling novels on this one.

 

Sadly, it will likely end up like Dark Imperium and Avenging Sons, two good books that really would be more appealing if their publishing order was flipped.

 

The Wolves have had entire novel series of angst about their numbers, trying to plug their lack of Successors and TS's screwing over said efforts. Its established why and how they couldnt and alot of stuff plugs in super-nicely with the Primaris angle, this is really not that much of a jump by any stretch.

 

Are you referring to the one novel by Wraight where even the talk of doing that was hidden from everyone but the Great Wolf and the head Wolf Priest? That they knew correcting the gene seed of the Canis Helix would be considered heretical by the other Space Wolves?

 

That plan was stopped by Magnus when he destroyed the new and improved Space Wolves still in transformation, the data and killed the head Wolf Priest to keep them from doing it. No one tried to do that afterwards. That wasn't even recent timeline events that was quite a long time ago in the timeline IIRC.

 

I've read your posts. You are taking apples while I am talking oranges. Do it All Cawl is an obvious plot device to magic plot armor away all problems with logic and lore inconsistency or retconning. He is literally a walking deus ex machina. Nothing you can say is going to make me or frankly the vast majority of people who keep up with the lore and fluff think otherwise.  The Primaris are literally better than the Firstborn in every way. Cawl is better at making space marines than the actual Emperor. There is simply no other way to say it.

 

As for the SW successors they didn't want another after the disaster of the Wolf Brothers. I've played SW since they became a legal army. I have the books and Inferno/old White Dwarf. You aren't going to out grognard me at least on Wolves. Part of the Wolves uniqueness either through insular thinking/finger to the Codex Astartes or the machinations of Magnus is they don't have any Successor chapters. That is undeniable. GW saw fit to change that to sell more toy soldiers so people could make NOW lore acceptable Successor chapters.

 

As I said before, I get that. They want to make money. More power to them. I just find how they did incredibly lazy, unimaginative and relying on the worst deus ex machina in the history of 40k lore in Do It All Cawl. 

 

If you disagree with that, that is fine. 

Edited October 30, 2020 by Bulwyf

[Karack Blackstone]

Cawl's writing and handling have been about as subtle as using a pile driver to pick a lock.

 

That all said, the lore is what it is now; it's not pretty, not fairly consistent to itself, and unduly does injustice through the forced and poorly written and handled "workarounds" that very nearly destroy the previously established continuity of the lore for the sake of how the game needs to be now.

 

Moving on here, sadly; GW still thinks SW's players love, Love, LOVE, all the WOLF WOLF WOLF WOOF we get shoved down our throats.

Constructive criticism is more useful, albeit so is the ability to listen on GW's part.

 

Anyway.

 

What I'm remembering from the 30K and 40K lore is the one sick and honestly kinda creepy truth: Gene-seed is basically a small baby / embryo contained inside an amniotic fluid sac through which the Astartes and Primaris implants are all regulated. You wanna discuss grimdark? Let's try this mess on for size!

 

And there's TWO!

 

So basically, there's the fact above, the statement below, and above all, the lore is about as often mistreated by the folks in charge of it as ever.

 

Something fun to discuss, lore related, and the scant data available...

 

WHY then, did Russ get to be the Emperor's Executioners, what was his plan, and why did the Salamanders get, and have to get, shoehorned into another Legion's role? What was the role for the Sallies and the other Legion before the change in battle order and tasks, or billets?

 

Also, the Wolves knew because they WERE the Emp's lapdogs; Russ in the book, Leman Russ, set out a battle plan as the Wolves had to basically run from getting wiped out as a fleet while stuck inside a massive warp storm, and I don't fully recall who was hunting them at the time, however without this lore, the Wolves would have never found their warrior souls and hearts, thus learning who they were as a force and how to actually decide what they wanted and indeed needed, to fight for, to make their lives and deaths worthwhile.

 

Now that to me is a lore discussion worth having, so that it may never be forgotten as players!

[StrangerOrders]

Cawl's writing and handling have been about as subtle as using a pile driver to pick a lock.

 

That all said, the lore is what it is now; it's not pretty, not fairly consistent to itself, and unduly does injustice through the forced and poorly written and handled "workarounds" that very nearly destroy the previously established continuity of the lore for the sake of how the game needs to be now.

 

Moving on here, sadly; GW still thinks SW's players love, Love, LOVE, all the WOLF WOLF WOLF WOOF we get shoved down our throats.

Constructive criticism is more useful, albeit so is the ability to listen on GW's part.

 

Anyway.

 

What I'm remembering from the 30K and 40K lore is the one sick and honestly kinda creepy truth: Gene-seed is basically a small baby / embryo contained inside an amniotic fluid sac through which the Astartes and Primaris implants are all regulated. You wanna discuss grimdark? Let's try this mess on for size!

 

And there's TWO!

 

So basically, there's the fact above, the statement below, and above all, the lore is about as often mistreated by the folks in charge of it as ever.

 

Something fun to discuss, lore related, and the scant data available...

 

WHY then, did Russ get to be the Emperor's Executioners, what was his plan, and why did the Salamanders get, and have to get, shoehorned into another Legion's role? What was the role for the Sallies and the other Legion before the change in battle order and tasks, or billets?

 

Also, the Wolves knew because they WERE the Emp's lapdogs; Russ in the book, Leman Russ, set out a battle plan as the Wolves had to basically run from getting wiped out as a fleet while stuck inside a massive warp storm, and I don't fully recall who was hunting them at the time, however without this lore, the Wolves would have never found their warrior souls and hearts, thus learning who they were as a force and how to actually decide what they wanted and indeed needed, to fight for, to make their lives and deaths worthwhile.

 

Now that to me is a lore discussion worth having, so that it may never be forgotten as players!

Erm, well kinda. That was not really so much an issue of a warp storm and more the fact that they had to hide in literal gas giant while fleeing the Alpha Legion. Which tore a fair chunk out of them on the whole.

 

And all of those questions are answered in the BBs incidentally, they even literally tell you what every Legion's job-description was. With some redundancy between Legions.

 

The Wolves were never formally given an Executioner job, Russ and the Wolves took that mantle on for themselves.

 

The general idea was that the Rout (as in pre-Russ) were an uncontrollable rabble. Literally World Eaters-bad and worse than that so undisciplined they needed a commissar-esque rank to basically outright kill warriors that got out of line.

 

Russ corrected that by essentially creating their insane honor-system, there are really good books that explore this, but the general idea is that their entire culture is designed around regulating the ferocity of the Helix and preventing such problems from raising their heads again.

 

But this had an over-corrective tendency, the Wolves started to identify themselves as the hunters of 'oathbreakers', executioners. The Emp also had a very pronounced streak of keeping a tight leash on the Wolves, which had the additional effect that they could not pick their targets as much as other Legions got to, and the targets the Emp preferred were less to do with oathbreaking and more monster-hunting.

 

Inferno even gives us a fun origin for the Sagas we know and love, utilizing Fenrisian culture as a mental crutch to fill in the blanks from how often they had to be mindwiped and the records of said campaigns destroyed. We even have one of those campaigns in the books.

 

'Hair-raising nightmare' doesnt begin to describe said campaign. It was more a mix of Dead Space, Lovecraft and the Reapers from Mass Effect than a standard 40k campaign.

 

Horus also spent alot of energy starving the Wolves out of good campaigns and the Iterators sort of had a very vocal hate-campaign going on with them.

 

And as keeping the Rout name suggests, the Wolves like to steer into the skid.

 

So over time it created a massive feedback loop of bad press and stubbornly trying to make executioner a compliment that landed the Wolves in the position you described. Russ and his sons tried very hard to break out of that and to build up their reputation to what it is 40k.

 

Hilariously, the Lukas novel is about how they managed to overcorrect too much there and that same obsession is now killing them. Or rather, was.

 

Its a shame the BBs are so pricy, you really miss out on a terrible amount of lore and context without them. Inferno is such a delight in particular if you are a Wolf and TSons fan. 

 

Seriously though, that campaign is so badass that it is almost offensive. 

 

Also, as all good Space Wolf and Dark Angel fans should know: Cuss: The Iterators. Those bastards were literally the worst.

Edited October 30, 2020 by StrangerOrders

[WrathOfTheLion]

Look, I don't like the Cawl plot devices either.

 

But given that the VI legion existed prior to finding Russ, and that even with the nonsense that only Fenrisians can become SW Astartes after geneseed degradation, you could just settle Fenrisian humans on another planet, the concept that SW successors can't happen is just  stupid. I really don't give a damn how they nuke this utterly ridiculous piece of lore, it's incredibly stupid and can have holes poked in it the size of a warlord titan by a child's mind.

Edited October 30, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[StrangerOrders]

Look, I don't like the Cawl plot devices either.

 

But given that the VI legion existed prior to finding Russ, and that even with the nonsense that only Fenrisians can become SW Astartes after geneseed degradation, you could just settle Fenrisian humans on another planet, the concept that SW successors can't happen is just  stupid. I really don't give a damn how they nuke this utterly ridiculous piece of lore, it's incredibly stupid and can have holes poked in it the size of a warlord titan by a child's mind.

I agree in the sense that I feel the Wolves deserve a bit of luck given their recent rough patch.

 

Its funny, my problem with Cawl is my problem with the Primaris. I like him and all of the ideas and books with him, but I really wish they would have taken their time with it and let it breath.

 

Let us not pretend this is new to GW or BL though, am I the only one to remember that in the 54ish HH novels they had two legions fall in the span of the first five books due to magical plot knives that have never made sense since? 

 

They never bothered to explain how somehow the Kinebrech were somehow the most powerful Warp Sorcerers in history lol. 

 

But alot of ideas can flourish given time for the writers to get the ideas into place and if the execs are bored and leave the room. To give an example, I think the Primaris would get alot less blowback if their first book had been Avenging Son instead of Dark Imperium.

 

Similarly people would have taken the Wolf Successors better if the first sign had been a nice novel on the subject instead of some random genius over on Warcom trying to make a quip about it. I have spoken at length over the build up but it was not given the real spotlight until now and boy did Warcom drop the ball on the execution.

[WrathOfTheLion]

It was just warcom meming about it perhaps crassly, but I wouldn't think too much about it.

 

That the SW didn't have successors is based entirely on decision, someone on the outside creating astartes will obviously puncture that in any logical analysis of the situation.

[Bulwyf]

Look, I don't like the Cawl plot devices either.

 

But given that the VI legion existed prior to finding Russ, and that even with the nonsense that only Fenrisians can become SW Astartes after geneseed degradation, you could just settle Fenrisian humans on another planet, the concept that SW successors can't happen is just  stupid. I really don't give a damn how they nuke this utterly ridiculous piece of lore, it's incredibly stupid and can have holes poked in it the size of a warlord titan by a child's mind.

 

I said as much in other posts on this board. It never made logical sense that you had pre Fenrisian Wolves and if somehow Fenris was so special to make the implantation and mutation easier that the Imperium if not the Wolves themselves would seed other worlds with Fenrisian colonists.

 

I don't have a problem with having SW successors as an idea. What I have problems with is how they handled the execution of it. If they had stories that said after reviewing more of the Wolf Brother failure they found out it was the nefarious TS and Magnus that corrupted them. Angry that they have been cheated of fellow Wolf brothers all over the galaxy the SW decided on their own to start up successor chapters. And by a happy coinky dink, here comes Cawl with Primaris technology that the Wolf Priests used on their own agency to create new Chapters.

 

This scenario I laid out gives the Space Wolves their own agency. They discover they were tricked and gave them their typical bull headed determination to prove TS and Magnus wrong by starting their own successor chapters. And what do you know? While they were doing that Cawl shows up with Primaris technology and the Wolf Priests use this to make new Primaris for both Space Wolves and for the new successor chapters.

 

But that isn't what we got. We got Do It All Cawl showing up, hand waving all concerns aside, hand waving several new chapters with zero connection to Fenris or even the awareness and consent of the Space Wolves.

 

I know which option I would have preferred. 

[WrathOfTheLion]

It's all senseless to me, as long as the inconsistency is removed, the amount of sense the setup makes increases.

 

The obvious situation is that the only reason successors didn't exist beforehand is that they didn't want them.

 

Someone just making them and shoving them upon them isn't any mary sue setup, literally anyone could have done it. The high lords could've just ordered it so any time in those 10k years, that they didn't was even more absurd.

 

It's clearly feasible. No logical analysis can conclude otherwise, a workaround obviously exists if they don't need Fenrisian blood, a workaround exists even if they do need Fenrisian blood, the only thing that could halt this is some utter nonsense where it has morphed to only happen on Fenris, the planet, which would be ridiculous.

 

So anyone making new Astartes can logically then make VI legion Astartes and organize them as new chapters. This is as evident as Cawl being able to make UM successors.

 

Taking the previous stupidity out back and putting it down has my support, I really don't care how they do it, it's less stupid than how it was.

Edited October 30, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[StrangerOrders]

Worth noting also from Inferno and Wolfsbane that the Emp seemed to pretty deliberately earmark Fenris from very early on.

 

Fun fact, its original name on the star charts was 'the Prison of Wolves'.

 

The Emp tells Horus that the planet is in part the result of DAOT humans trying to flex on their own invincibility by trying to recreate a functionally endless Ragnarok. Sort of that ultimate flex by creating an ending that doesn't actually end. This has been your daily reminder that DAOT humanity humans were not the pinnacles of humility.

 

Its sort of implied that the Emp had a number of planets earmarked for using as Legion Bases in the BBs, another big example is Medusa. The Emp literally sent the fastest ships he could searching for that one. 

 

Baal too given how much is shady about that planet, all of the time-weirdness makes Fenris seem relatively normal by comparison tbh. Do not even get me started on Nocturne, Prospero or Caliban.

 

You really have to remember that the Emp was thinking very far ahead. I do not just mean in the sense of being literally precog, I mean in the sense that he tended to build things out of a mix of expedience and an eye towards future objectives.

 

The Wolves notably were seemingly designed to match up with the Fenrisian population, but the Emp actually imported alot of Deathworlders to boost its population through interbreeding. But at no point were the Wolves utterly unable to recruit from elsewhere, their success was just a total mess. 

 

But thats in an Imperium that actually has an interest in big armies. Supply fresh gene-seed to the Wolves now and no one will blink if they have a 1 in 10000 success rate on a non-Fenrisian planet. The modern Imperium gives absolutely no   about the collateral.

Edited October 31, 2020 by PeteySödes
Don't dodge the language filter.

[Bulwyf]

Worth noting also from Inferno and Wolfsbane that the Emp seemed to pretty deliberately earmark Fenris from very early on.

 

Fun fact, its original name on the star charts was 'the Prison of Wolves'.

 

The Emp tells Horus that the planet is in part the result of DAOT humans trying to flex on their own invincibility by trying to recreate a functionally endless Ragnarok. Sort of that ultimate flex by creating an ending that doesn't actually end. This has been your daily reminder that DAOT humanity humans were not the pinnacles of humility.

 

Its sort of implied that the Emp had a number of planets earmarked for using as Legion Bases in the BBs, another big example is Medusa. The Emp literally sent the fastest ships he could searching for that one. 

 

Baal too given how much is shady about that planet, all of the time-weirdness makes Fenris seem relatively normal by comparison tbh. Do not even get me started on Nocturne, Prospero or Caliban.

 

You really have to remember that the Emp was thinking very far ahead. I do not just mean in the sense of being literally precog, I mean in the sense that he tended to build things out of a mix of expedience and an eye towards future objectives.

 

The Wolves notably were seemingly designed to match up with the Fenrisian population, but the Emp actually imported alot of Deathworlders to boost its population through interbreeding. But at no point were the Wolves utterly unable to recruit from elsewhere, their success was just a total mess. 

 

But thats in an Imperium that actually has an interest in big armies. Supply fresh gene-seed to the Wolves now and no one will blink if they have a 1 in 10000 success rate on a non-Fenrisian planet. The modern Imperium gives absolutely no   about the collateral.

 

 

Which old fluff are you referring to as BB? I know IA refers to Index Astartes, I remember Inferno! I remember Horus Heresy: Collected Visions and any number of odd Forgeworld or random Xenos books. I remember Blood Bowl old and new which is where the last time I remember BB being used. Are you talking about the FW Black Books for Horus Heresy?

Edited October 31, 2020 by PeteySödes
Quoted language dodge

[Bulwyf]

It's all senseless to me, as long as the inconsistency is removed, the amount of sense the setup makes increases.

 

The obvious situation is that the only reason successors didn't exist beforehand is that they didn't want them.

 

Someone just making them and shoving them upon them isn't any mary sue setup, literally anyone could have done it. The high lords could've just ordered it so any time in those 10k years, that they didn't was even more absurd.

 

It's clearly feasible. No logical analysis can conclude otherwise, a workaround obviously exists if they don't need Fenrisian blood, a workaround exists even if they do need Fenrisian blood, the only thing that could halt this is some utter nonsense where it has morphed to only happen on Fenris, the planet, which would be ridiculous.

 

So anyone making new Astartes can logically then make VI legion Astartes and organize them as new chapters. This is as evident as Cawl being able to make UM successors.

 

Taking the previous stupidity out back and putting it down has my support, I really don't care how they do it, it's less stupid than how it was.

 

I'm not disagreeing with you. I just wish they had given SW fans an iota of thought and respect to allow the SW be their own agency in creating new chapters and introducing Primaris. I don't think that is too much to ask instead of getting what we got.

[StrangerOrders]

BB = Black Book, the term isn't used here I guess.

 

Great stuff though. Absolutely massive amount of lore. Downside is that they are pricy and heavy enough that even the softback can be used as an improvised bludgeon. 

[WrathOfTheLion]

 

I'm not disagreeing with you. I just wish they had given SW fans an iota of thought and respect to allow the SW be their own agency in creating new chapters and introducing Primaris. I don't think that is too much to ask instead of getting what we got.

 

Fair enough, perhaps they'll glue in some older chapters like the Red Wolves as successors to help with it.

 

I know I would like to see them glue in other chapters like the Star Phantoms, the Angels of Vigilance, etc. into the DA as well.

[Bulwyf]

BB = Black Book, the term isn't used here I guess.

 

Great stuff though. Absolutely massive amount of lore. Downside is that they are pricy and heavy enough that even the softback can be used as an improvised bludgeon. 

 

Ok I thought that is was what you meant. I have all of them. They are very pricy and heavy enough that I could probably use just one to successfully defend myself and my wife in a home invasion..

[GrFlur]

I see you talking about moving Fenrisians out of Fenris ... and none thinking the implications in the evolution of next generations...

 

Fenris is unique, there are no other planet similar. So his inhabitant are well adapted to his, lets call it this way, temper.

 

Over (lots of) years a Wolf became a Chiuawa ... just because was "moved" from his envoirenment. 

 

But please don't go this rute. This Sci-Fy has so many holes that a Guyere cheese looks like a solid rock.

 

Take everything Codexes throw us with a spoonfull of sugar to get the medicine go down in a most delightfull way...

 

 

And remember. If it's not in the Codices or the Core book, it's not Cannon, so discuss about it it's like trying to decipher the smell of the clouds. Vary interesting but ...

[VIth]

After having read Cawl’s book, and having previously read Inferno and enough HH novels, I feel they have entirely provided a sufficient backdrop for Space Wolves successors. I think most people who complain about Cawl haven’t read enough of the lore about him. I do think he should have been written so as to be more of a leader of a cabal than an individual, however, that’s exactly how it works in my imagination.

 

Given his knowledge of life extension and genetics, and the reasons why, I’m fine with how things have played out. As I believe StrangerOrders said, my only complaint is the speed of the rollout, if you will, in that there wasn’t a more deliberate attempt to connect all the dots.

[jaxom]

I see you talking about moving Fenrisians out of Fenris ... and none thinking the implications in the evolution of next generations...

 

Fenris is unique, there are no other planet similar. So his inhabitant are well adapted to his, lets call it this way, temper.

 

Over (lots of) years a Wolf became a Chiuawa ... just because was "moved" from his envoirenment. 

 

But please don't go this rute. This Sci-Fy has so many holes that a Guyere cheese looks like a solid rock.

 

Take everything Codexes throw us with a spoonfull of sugar to get the medicine go down in a most delightfull way...

 

 

And remember. If it's not in the Codices or the Core book, it's not Cannon, so discuss about it it's like trying to decipher the smell of the clouds. Vary interesting but ...

 

I think a more appropriate thing to remember is other deathworlds exist. So we many not have wolves, but we still have caucasian shepard dogs, new foundland dogs, saint bernards, great danes, scottish deerhounds, etc. 

[NightHowler]

I haven’t said anything up until now, because there’s no real benefit except to get it off my chest, but I agree completely with Bulwyf on the changes to the lore 100%. I may be even more upset than he is.

 

Space Wolves have always had a means of making “successor” chapters through the idea of the Lost Company. There’s even a graveyard of standing stones beside the Fang to commemorate all the companies lost over the millennia.

 

But because GW couldn’t make money off of their poorly conceived “primaris” marines using this idea, they had to throw all that lore in the trash and say “Cawl fixed your chapter so you can have Primaris successors now”.

 

It’s disrespectful to prior lore and it feels like a slap in the face to anyone who enjoyed the lore the way it was.

 

To everyone who likes these changes, I really am happy for you. I’m glad you can continue to enjoy your game. I wish I could enjoy it with you, but I can’t. Will I stop playing? Probably not. Will I come up with my own lore to keep from feeling so violated by the changes? You bet. But I still don’t like it.

 

Despite what anyone says, I will always feel like it was little more than a businessman in a suit telling some poor writer to find a way to shoehorn in the changes that the marketing department needs before 4th quarter sales reports are published.

[VIth]

I haven’t said anything up until now, because there’s no real benefit except to get it off my chest, but I agree completely with Bulwyf on the changes to the lore 100%. I may be even more upset than he is.

Space Wolves have always had a means of making “successor” chapters through the idea of the Lost Company. There’s even a graveyard of standing stones beside the Fang to commemorate all the companies lost over the millennia.

But because GW couldn’t make money off of their poorly conceived “primaris” marines using this idea, they had to throw all that lore in the trash and say “Cawl fixed your chapter so you can have Primaris successors now”.

It’s disrespectful to prior lore and it feels like a slap in the face to anyone who enjoyed the lore the way it was.

To everyone who likes these changes, I really am happy for you. I’m glad you can continue to enjoy your game. I wish I could enjoy it with you, but I can’t. Will I stop playing? Probably not. Will I come up with my own lore to keep from feeling so violated by the changes? You bet. But I still don’t like it.

Despite what anyone says, I will always feel like it was little more than a businessman in a suit telling some poor writer to find a way to shoehorn in the changes that the marketing department needs before 4th quarter sales reports are published.

FYI I was 100% where you are initially, but having read a great deal of the lore the past several years, and seen the trail of breadcrumbs they’ve been laying, I’m much more sanguine about the current state of affairs than I used to be. To each their own.