Space Wolf Geneseed and Trefoil Legion Theories

[Bulwyf]

I haven’t said anything up until now, because there’s no real benefit except to get it off my chest, but I agree completely with Bulwyf on the changes to the lore 100%. I may be even more upset than he is.

 

Space Wolves have always had a means of making “successor” chapters through the idea of the Lost Company. There’s even a graveyard of standing stones beside the Fang to commemorate all the companies lost over the millennia.

 

But because GW couldn’t make money off of their poorly conceived “primaris” marines using this idea, they had to throw all that lore in the trash and say “Cawl fixed your chapter so you can have Primaris successors now”.

 

It’s disrespectful to prior lore and it feels like a slap in the face to anyone who enjoyed the lore the way it was.

 

To everyone who likes these changes, I really am happy for you. I’m glad you can continue to enjoy your game. I wish I could enjoy it with you, but I can’t. Will I stop playing? Probably not. Will I come up with my own lore to keep from feeling so violated by the changes? You bet. But I still don’t like it.

 

Despite what anyone says, I will always feel like it was little more than a businessman in a suit telling some poor writer to find a way to shoehorn in the changes that the marketing department needs before 4th quarter sales reports are published.

 

 

be careful agreeing with me brother.  You see how they treat me on here, don't want that to happen to someone else.

[FabulousRex]

Nah, you're the Naysmith of our proud Chapter, Bulwyf! It's an interesting Iron Hands tradition, to have the Lt second guess and doubt everything his Cpt plans, to keep them both sharp.

 

I'm growing to like your view point. Kinda pictured you like an Iron Priest picking through the details with a fine toothed Krakentooth Sword.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Perhaps a more constructive route they could go is that over time, the SW geneseed 'settles' amongst a population.

 

The original concept for the SW was more than just vikings + wolves, they were meant to represent the tribal peoples of Europe in general, perhaps even tribal peoples in general, including the Norse, the Celts and the Germanics. As Jes Goodwin mentioned about their design, Arjac Rockfist (my favorite miniature of the SW line) is a bit of a holdover from that time, where he contains elements of other cultures more than the current lines. One thing I would like to see is a return to form on that, where the newer lineages forge their own sagas and culture befitting their planet. So perhaps one ends up with a more Celtic disposition, forging the Sagas and myths more to that culture. Or perhaps one that takes aspects of Finnic mythology. Perhaps one that is more Gothic German, focusing on cavalry (bikes) heavily, like the Rohirrim of LotR are.

Edited October 30, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[NightHowler]

be careful agreeing with me brother.  You see how they treat me on here, don't want that to happen to someone else.

I don’t expect to change anyone’s minds. I just wanted you and everyone else to know that you weren’t alone in your disapproval of the sudden and poorly executed change in lore.

 

I love the new models. I love that marines finally get two wounds. I love that the new models stand a little taller. I just see what’s coming on the horizon and I recognize “legends” for exactly what it is: the trash can that GW plans to eventually throw all of the legacy marines in over the next 10 years or so. Their disrespect for prior lore indicates (to me at least) that most of the story I have loved over the last 20 years will eventually end up in the trash along with all my old models.

 

My only hope is that they step up the quality of the lore they intend to take its place.

[Bryan Blaire]

No Chapter has agency to create new Successors on their lonesome - all the Foundings are seemingly determined by the High Lords/broader Adeptus Terra organization. To self-declare new Chapters would lead to an accusation of Legion-building, yada yada - yes, the Wolves are a First Founding and get more latitude, and have shown their willingness to fight back against the Imperium and it's other Adeptus, but that might just mean a larger conflict than the Badab War. Gene-seed tithes should keep the amount of gene-seed the Chapters have on hand below the level necessary to found a new Chapter anyway.

 

Unsanctioned off-shoots of Chapters without recorded panoply, Chapter number, and all that seem more likely to trigger something bad with the Inquisition and High Lords as they would be able to be recognized as a "good thing" by the same - namely that it would mean the parent Chapter already violated prohibition and tradition to go significantly over 1K Marines (because if they aren't a recognized Chapter, clearly they belong to another Chapter, despite their protestations otherwise).

 

Even the Dark Angels, who seem to have "ordered" a Founding on some level to create the Disciples of Caliban, still worked through the High Lords/Terra on getting the Successor set up.

 

I agree that the Primaris as a whole, and Primaris Successors of Space Wolves are totally out of the blue (and that the lore there needs work and should have been allowed more build-up - and Guilliman's death), but that lack of basis and depth doesn't have any bearing on the Wolves needing to have/having agency over creating Successors. There would have actually been bigger lore issues with the Wolves exercising agency and creating Successors on their own, especially if there weren't serious :cuss repercussions because of them doing so. Even the Second Founding was a result of forces outside the Legions themselves, except the 13th.

 

That particular argument doesn't seem valid.

[Wispy]

i imagine the Imperium creating the Wolf Spear and being like "I'm helping!" and the Space Wolves being "what are you doing, we don't make sucessors for a reason! DO YOU REMEMBER THE WOLF BROTHERS?" and having to inherit the mess.

[CaptainStabby]

So... there's a bit of old, old, probably 2E fluff, maybe Index Astartes article. I cant for the life of me remember where it is, but I will spend some time looking for it.

 

It specifically talks about the Canis Helix being a feature of the DaoT humans on Fenris, NOT it being part of the Wolf geneseed, and it's that combo that both makes SW what they are as well as prevents the creation of SW from other genestock because you don't get that feature and the only way to keep that genestock pure is to keep them all on Fenris, etc.

 

Maybe it's that first Ragnar novel? I'll do some digging.

[Gederas]

This is all super cool and interesting.

 

Also makes me realize I need to get more of the Black Books....

 

 

Also:

A Wolf Priest nearly fixed the geneseed if Magnus hadn't interfered. So why shouldn't Cawl be able to do it with fresh geneseed not diluted by generations of replication? I'm not the biggest fan of Cawl and Primaris fluff, but in this instance I have nothing to complain.

True, however that was to remove the Curse of the wulfen which it has been specifically stated Cawl did not do. So I don't know that that precedent really applies.

Avenging Son actually addresses this, as do the BBs and Valdor.

 

Alot of the gene 'flaws' were baked in features into the gene-seed. Cawl likes to tinker with the platform but he is fairly obsessive even in his own book about the exact virtues of each Legion, implied to be part of the reason why Primaris from the first batch tend to be very legion-centric. He had no interest in ironing out what he perceived to be the strengths of each bloodline. Guilliman theorized that the big problem Cawl 'solved' was that degradation had made alot of the bigger quirks sort of spin out of control.

 

So he did not even really try to fix the Wulfen or the Red Thirst, he just brought them back to their 30k levels. Wulfen were a problem back then but only a minor one.

 

The Black Rage is psychic so I think Cawl just shrugged on that one.

The Black Rage isn't psychic. It's.... Well... It's the Blood Angels grabbing the Idiot Ball and forgetting what one of their organs does for 10,000 years.

 

Quick wall:

'The Omophagea, also called the Remembrancer, is the 8th of the 19 genetically-engineered gene-seed organs that are implanted into a Space Marine Neophyte to produce a new superhuman Astartes. The Omophagea is implanted into the spinal cord and then wired into the central nervous system so that it is directly attached to the cerebral cortex and to the stomach. It allows the Astartes to gain part of an individual person's or creature's memory by eating its flesh. This special organ is implanted between the thoracic vertebrae and the stomach wall and is designed to absorb information and any DNA, RNA or protein sequences related to experience or memory. This implant thus allows a Space Marine to literally "learn by eating." Four new nerve bundles are also implanted connecting the spine and the stomach wall. The Omophagea transmits the gained information to the Astartes' brain as a set of memories or experiences. This enables the Space Marine to gain information, in a survival or tactical sense, simply by eating an animal indigenous to an alien world and then experiencing some of what that creature did before its death.'

What did the Sanguinary Priests do after Sanguinius was killed? Drained his blood, mixed their blood into it and drank it. And one of the things Blood Angels neophytes do after being made full Marines? Drinking from the Grail that contains the Blood of Sanguinius.

 

Which means the Blood Angels have been drinking the blood of a Primarch, since the Omophagea lets them gain the most recent memories of whatever they drank the blood/eaten the flesh of...

 

You see where the issue is.

 

When did the Black Rage start showing up in Primaris? After they drank from the Grail.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

 

And all of those questions are answered in the BBs incidentally, they even literally tell you what every Legion's job-description was. With some redundancy between Legions.

 

The Wolves were never formally given an Executioner job, Russ and the Wolves took that mantle on for themselves.

 

 

Except this isn't really borne out by the Black Books. Not only is there the whole 'Trefoil' connection which strongly implies that the Wolves were meant for the Executioner job (or at the very least something similarly secretive and sinister). There's also the nature of the Legion before Russ, when operating as the Expeditionary 115 sub-fleet. "Over time the Legion developed particular expertise in also in conducting rapidly moving hunter-killer operations...or in in undertaking more generally punitive actions, such as rebellions by inflicting short, brutal reprisal actions - tasks for which the VIth under Rathvin seemed particularly suited and indeed missions of which type Rathvin often requested for his Legion".

 

The trend was there before Russ, and frankly it seems very unlikely that a regular Legion master, when his Legion (having undergone unique, isolated training) was operating under the direct control of the Emperor, could decide to take the Legion in a direction contrary to the Emperor's designs.

 

 

The general idea was that the Rout (as in pre-Russ) were an uncontrollable rabble. Literally World Eaters-bad and worse than that so undisciplined they needed a commissar-esque rank to basically outright kill warriors that got out of line.

 

This is one of the most irritating bits of Inferno. At their worst the pre-Russ VI were comparable to the War Hounds. Not the World Eaters (I did a comparison of the language used in Betrayal and Inferno a while back, they're basically the same and the idea of the XII as the 'noble controlled dudes' and the VI as the 'dodgy ones' doesn't really hold water, they were both fractious, brutal organisations before their respective Primarchs arrived). The Disciplinary Troops (the Commissar esque dudes) were also not unique to the VI. Inferno notes when introducing them "the Legion employed a far larger number of Disciplinary troops than almost any other Legion, barring perhaps only the the 12th". So they were a feature of the Legions, with the VI 'merely' being one of the heaviest users, but the 'noble, controlled' War Hounds similarly used them heavily.

 

 

But this had an over-corrective tendency, the Wolves started to identify themselves as the hunters of 'oathbreakers', executioners. The Emp also had a very pronounced streak of keeping a tight leash on the Wolves, which had the additional effect that they could not pick their targets as much as other Legions got to, and the targets the Emp preferred were less to do with oathbreaking and more monster-hunting.

 

Eh? What do you base this on? You're right that the Wolves were kept on a 'tighter leash' (especially in the pre-Russ days) than some, but that strikes me more as evidence in favour of their evolution and mien being intentional on Empy's part, rather than some presumption by the VI.

 

You also have the text stating plainly than the Wolves were often used to mete out Imperial justice to 'oath breakers', referencing scores of such campaigns in the early portion of the GC alone (before the Rangdan Xenocide). Besides, 'monster hunter' vs 'traitor hunter' is a false distinction. The watchword for the GC era Legion was, more than anything else loyalty. Any dirty job, any price. For the Emperor, Russ and the Rout would see it done.

 

Sorry, but the whole 'Emperor didn't mean the Wolves to be the Executioner/Hatchetman Legion' just frustrates me, as it just isn't borne out by the text, and is arguably a pointless distinction used as ammo by the hate brigade. This arguemnt isn't made about any other Legion. Were the Iron Warriors 'meant' to be the Siege Legion, or did Perty take that mantle himself? Does it matter? Nobody argues that the IW weren't the Siege Legion. Similarly whether it was Russ or Empy that initially decided the Wolves' role (though I 100% think Empy makes the most sense) doesn't matter. They were the 'Hatchetman Legion', and clearly the Emperor approved of this direction for the VI, as he did nothing to curtail it for the vast majority of the GC.

Edited November 4, 2020 by Leif Bearclaw

[StrangerOrders]

Leif, I am not 100% sure what you are saying but I can provide page numbers for where we are apparently disconnected and I also say that I am drawing on the Lukas book which also discusses the subject at length. 

 

I said that they were never formally given the task and they were not, why is this an issue? I was pointing out that it was their own self-image and it is a stark contrast with the uncontrollable mob of the Rout, the imagery of transition from 'lawless mob' to 'enforces of law' was a very deliberate choice. The book is very clear that the entire Rout name is a mockery to begin with and you know what that is absolutely great. I genuinely think more of the BA and SW for starting out as monsters and growing past that, and you know what the Wolves deserve extra credit for not burying the truth of their past like the Angels did. 

 

The Oathbreaker section is explicit in stating that it was their preference to hunt Oath Breakers, pg.81 iirc. And it was about loyalty, why do you think I was questioning that? But the book also notes at length that the Wolves were also used as a beat-stick for fighting very lethal campaigns which were dubious enough the Wolves were regularly mind-wiped. 

 

The book notes that the Emp kept a tight leash on them but it is also very specific in that the Wolves liked hunting Oath-breakers. It says precious little on their opinions with regards to the other. 

 

Also, the false-distinction thing makes no sense to me to be frank. Yes they were both dirty jobs, but one is considerably more dangerous and thankless than the other and the Inferno states as much. No one rained laurals on the Wolves for killing cyber-Cthulu and their monster-hunting deeds were buried alive, heck their normal victories were buried alive. You frankly cant compare them on the mere basis of dirty jobs. The Wolves saw the enforcer role as thankless to be sure and an act born out of their loyalty but its also much closer to their preferred image of themselves. Which in fairness might have to do with not remembering the details of the latter role in there.

 

I am also not sure where the heck you are getting that this is a bad thing or 'hate' from.

 

The Wolves in Inferno are by an insane margin more admirable than the rest of their Heresy portrayals, frankly much more awe-inspiring too. It takes guts to wear an insult as a badge of pride, that is a hell of a power move.

 

And it was an over-correction, because they went from being feared for one thing to being feared for the other extreme. Granted, we both know you can blame Horus and the Iterators but the Wolves made a mistake there.

 

 

This is all super cool and interesting.

 

Also makes me realize I need to get more of the Black Books....

 

 

Also:

A Wolf Priest nearly fixed the geneseed if Magnus hadn't interfered. So why shouldn't Cawl be able to do it with fresh geneseed not diluted by generations of replication? I'm not the biggest fan of Cawl and Primaris fluff, but in this instance I have nothing to complain.

True, however that was to remove the Curse of the wulfen which it has been specifically stated Cawl did not do. So I don't know that that precedent really applies.

Avenging Son actually addresses this, as do the BBs and Valdor.

 

Alot of the gene 'flaws' were baked in features into the gene-seed. Cawl likes to tinker with the platform but he is fairly obsessive even in his own book about the exact virtues of each Legion, implied to be part of the reason why Primaris from the first batch tend to be very legion-centric. He had no interest in ironing out what he perceived to be the strengths of each bloodline. Guilliman theorized that the big problem Cawl 'solved' was that degradation had made alot of the bigger quirks sort of spin out of control.

 

So he did not even really try to fix the Wulfen or the Red Thirst, he just brought them back to their 30k levels. Wulfen were a problem back then but only a minor one.

 

The Black Rage is psychic so I think Cawl just shrugged on that one.

The Black Rage isn't psychic. It's.... Well... It's the Blood Angels grabbing the Idiot Ball and forgetting what one of their organs does for 10,000 years.

 

Quick wall:

'The Omophagea, also called the Remembrancer, is the 8th of the 19 genetically-engineered gene-seed organs that are implanted into a Space Marine Neophyte to produce a new superhuman Astartes. The Omophagea is implanted into the spinal cord and then wired into the central nervous system so that it is directly attached to the cerebral cortex and to the stomach. It allows the Astartes to gain part of an individual person's or creature's memory by eating its flesh. This special organ is implanted between the thoracic vertebrae and the stomach wall and is designed to absorb information and any DNA, RNA or protein sequences related to experience or memory. This implant thus allows a Space Marine to literally "learn by eating." Four new nerve bundles are also implanted connecting the spine and the stomach wall. The Omophagea transmits the gained information to the Astartes' brain as a set of memories or experiences. This enables the Space Marine to gain information, in a survival or tactical sense, simply by eating an animal indigenous to an alien world and then experiencing some of what that creature did before its death.'

What did the Sanguinary Priests do after Sanguinius was killed? Drained his blood, mixed their blood into it and drank it. And one of the things Blood Angels neophytes do after being made full Marines? Drinking from the Grail that contains the Blood of Sanguinius.

 

Which means the Blood Angels have been drinking the blood of a Primarch, since the Omophagea lets them gain the most recent memories of whatever they drank the blood/eaten the flesh of...

 

You see where the issue is.

 

When did the Black Rage start showing up in Primaris? After they drank from the Grail.

Its a good theory but I could swear that its been said several times that it is psychic in origin. 

 

But damn thats a great theory actually, since it actually works great with their having an over-active Omophagea. 

 

Wouldnt add up though, Cawl's marines didnt drink the Grail but fell anyway and I am fairly sure Sangi notes in Ruinstorm that his death echo is what causes it.

 

Granted there is also something a question as to how the Grail works, since its not mentioned as being necessary in any 30k source. 

 

...ngl though, I like your theory.

[Gederas]

The Black Rage isn't psychic. It's.... Well... It's the Blood Angels grabbing the Idiot Ball and forgetting what one of their organs does for 10,000 years.

 

Quick wall:

'The Omophagea, also called the Remembrancer, is the 8th of the 19 genetically-engineered gene-seed organs that are implanted into a Space Marine Neophyte to produce a new superhuman Astartes. The Omophagea is implanted into the spinal cord and then wired into the central nervous system so that it is directly attached to the cerebral cortex and to the stomach. It allows the Astartes to gain part of an individual person's or creature's memory by eating its flesh. This special organ is implanted between the thoracic vertebrae and the stomach wall and is designed to absorb information and any DNA, RNA or protein sequences related to experience or memory. This implant thus allows a Space Marine to literally "learn by eating." Four new nerve bundles are also implanted connecting the spine and the stomach wall. The Omophagea transmits the gained information to the Astartes' brain as a set of memories or experiences. This enables the Space Marine to gain information, in a survival or tactical sense, simply by eating an animal indigenous to an alien world and then experiencing some of what that creature did before its death.'

 

What did the Sanguinary Priests do after Sanguinius was killed? Drained his blood, mixed their blood into it and drank it. And one of the things Blood Angels neophytes do after being made full Marines? Drinking from the Grail that contains the Blood of Sanguinius.

 

Which means the Blood Angels have been drinking the blood of a Primarch, since the Omophagea lets them gain the most recent memories of whatever they drank the blood/eaten the flesh of...

 

You see where the issue is.

 

When did the Black Rage start showing up in Primaris? After they drank from the Grail.

Its a good theory but I could swear that its been said several times that it is psychic in origin. 

 

But damn thats a great theory actually, since it actually works great with their having an over-active Omophagea. 

 

Wouldnt add up though, Cawl's marines didnt drink the Grail but fell anyway and I am fairly sure Sangi notes in Ruinstorm that his death echo is what causes it.

 

Granted there is also something a question as to how the Grail works, since its not mentioned as being necessary in any 30k source. 

 

...ngl though, I like your theory.

Should probably take this to another thread (maybe in the Blood Angels forum). Buuuuuuuuut....

 

It's thought to be Psychic in origin because of how psychically active the IX Legion is and how psychically connected they are to their Primarch, which was noted to be way more than other Legions.

 

And Cawl's Greyshields didn't drink from the Grail. Primaris only started exhibiting the Black Rage AFTER they drank from the Grail (Blood Angels did that as a way of fully inducting the Primaris to them, much like how the Wolves made the Greyshields go through the Trial of Morkai). Which, again, makes my theory seem even more valid :lol:

 

Plus, the Omophagea gives you the 'most recent memories' of the ingested material. What was Sanguinius' most recent memory before his death? Pure, unadulterated Primarch raeg. If Primarchs are semi-warp beings like the fluff implies/states even a Marine shouldn't be able to handle something like that :lol:

[Leif Bearclaw]

Leif, I am not 100% sure what you are saying but I can provide page numbers for where we are apparently disconnected

OK, I'm going to break this up a tad and tackle it out of order, hope you don't mind.

 

 

And it was an over-correction, because they went from being feared for one thing to being feared for the other extreme. Granted, we both know you can blame Horus and the Iterators but the Wolves made a mistake there.

 

I just don't see this as an over or under-correction. As there doesn't seem to be a real distinction between the 2 states. Even in the 'nice days' pre-Xeoncide the Wolves were called don to do things that the iterators and remembrancers would have struggled with. Purging rebellious militia and throwing Rogue Rogue Traders into suns (while clearly necessary at times) is hardly good material for the 'unified Imperium securing a new golden age for humanity' PR line...

 

But that's what the VI always was, a force more than willing to sacrifice reputation in the name of loyalty and necessity. While the set dressing changed with Russ I'm not convinced the 'soul' of the Legion did. Russ just made them better at what they were always for. He was an iterative and evolutionary influence, rather than the revolutionary influence Primarchs like Vulkan and Sanguinius were on their respective Legions.

 

 

The Wolves in Inferno are by an insane margin more admirable than the rest of their Heresy portrayals, frankly much more awe-inspiring too. It takes guts to wear an insult as a badge of pride, that is a hell of a power move.

I'd agree, Inferno, despite a few missteps, is both one of the better Black Books, and one of the best pieces of SW fluff overall.

 

 

Also, the false-distinction thing makes no sense to me to be frank. Yes they were both dirty jobs, but one is considerably more dangerous and thankless than the other and the Inferno states as much. No one rained laurals on the Wolves for killing cyber-Cthulu and their monster-hunting deeds were buried alive, heck their normal victories were buried alive. You frankly cant compare them on the mere basis of dirty jobs. The Wolves saw the enforcer role as thankless to be sure and an act born out of their loyalty but its also much closer to their preferred image of themselves. Which in fairness might have to do with not remembering the details of the latter role in there.

You seemed in the post I quoted to be saying something like 'they wanted to fight rebels but ended up monster hunting', which imo seemed to be making a weird binary of the VI's actions (possibly with some delusion on the part of the Wolves), when it looks far more like they did both depending on the demands of the moment.

 

 

I said that they were never formally given the task and they were not, why is this an issue?

Because it's one of the most common lines taken by the SW hate brigade. It frustrates me because (as I think I said) it's both unfounded (as there's more than enough circumstantial evidence to conclude the evolution of the VI was a deliberate move on Empy's part) as it's irrelevant, as it's a 'criticism' (in my experience at least) only ever thrown at Russ and the Wolves.

 

 

I am also not sure where the heck you are getting that this is a bad thing or 'hate' from.

Sorry, I think I could have been clearer here. I wasn't accusing you of anything but the whole 'the Wolves weren't meant to be the hatchetmen because xyz' is a very common claim by the often vocal SW hatedom to belittle the faction as somehow uniquely deluded or hypocritical (of course I vehemently disagree with this) . Usually 'xyz' has the flavour of 'Russ was a presumptuous bully looking to throw his weight around' or 'the VIII/XII were the first choices, but Empy had to resort to the VI when the other 2 didn't work out'.

 

Hope this clarifies my position somewhat.

Edited November 5, 2020 by Leif Bearclaw

[VIth]

Question for the group: are there any HH black books with more/a lot of Space Wolves background compared to the others? I have Inferno, which is excellent, and the Age of Darkness (?) book for rules, but are there any other BB with lots of SW info?

[StrangerOrders]

Question for the group: are there any HH black books with more/a lot of Space Wolves background compared to the others? I have Inferno, which is excellent, and the Age of Darkness (?) book for rules, but are there any other BB with lots of SW info?

Hmm... well Legions do not really tend to show up outside of their designated books that much but there are some.

 

Betrayal has a general history of the Crusade and the Astartes as a concept, there is alot of really good stuff in there and its also hilariously a sort of a myth-buster that fills you in on alot of stuff in the setting. Things like distance, why Astropaths go blind, etc. It also gives you sort of the general premise to overlay the Legion history onto.

 

Malevolence tackles how the Warp was seen and dealt with during the Crusade and includes some examples involving the Wolves. There is also some much-needed (imo, we can debate the subject) regarding the Watch Packs and the Wolf presence in Signus. Russ sending a Company to keep an eye on a Primarch seems alot less idiotic than expecting a pack to survive long enough for even their death's to be noticed. 

 

Its been a good while since I read Retribution but I could swear there was some Wolf-stuff in there as well.

 

Thats all I've got off the top of my head, others can probably add more.

[StrangerOrders]

 

Leif, I am not 100% sure what you are saying but I can provide page numbers for where we are apparently disconnected

OK, I'm going to break this up a tad and tackle it out of order, hope you don't mind.

 

 

And it was an over-correction, because they went from being feared for one thing to being feared for the other extreme. Granted, we both know you can blame Horus and the Iterators but the Wolves made a mistake there.

 

I just don't see this as an over or under-correction. As there doesn't seem to be a real distinction between the 2 states. Even in the 'nice days' pre-Xeoncide the Wolves were called don to do things that the iterators and remembrancers would have struggled with. Purging rebellious militia and throwing Rogue Rogue Traders into suns (while clearly necessary at times) is hardly good material for the 'unified Imperium securing a new golden age for humanity' PR line...

 

But that's what the VI always was, a force more than willing to sacrifice reputation in the name of loyalty and necessity. While the set dressing changed with Russ I'm not convinced the 'soul' of the Legion did. Russ just made them better at what they were always for. He was an iterative and evolutionary influence, rather than the revolutionary influence Primarchs like Vulkan and Sanguinius were on their respective Legions.

 

 

The Wolves in Inferno are by an insane margin more admirable than the rest of their Heresy portrayals, frankly much more awe-inspiring too. It takes guts to wear an insult as a badge of pride, that is a hell of a power move.

I'd agree, Inferno, despite a few missteps, is both one of the better Black Books, and one of the best pieces of SW fluff overall.

 

 

Also, the false-distinction thing makes no sense to me to be frank. Yes they were both dirty jobs, but one is considerably more dangerous and thankless than the other and the Inferno states as much. No one rained laurals on the Wolves for killing cyber-Cthulu and their monster-hunting deeds were buried alive, heck their normal victories were buried alive. You frankly cant compare them on the mere basis of dirty jobs. The Wolves saw the enforcer role as thankless to be sure and an act born out of their loyalty but its also much closer to their preferred image of themselves. Which in fairness might have to do with not remembering the details of the latter role in there.

You seemed in the post I quoted to be saying something like 'they wanted to fight rebels but ended up monster hunting', which imo seemed to be making a weird binary of the VI's actions (possibly with some delusion on the part of the Wolves), when it looks far more like they did both depending on the demands of the moment.

 

 

I said that they were never formally given the task and they were not, why is this an issue?

Because it's one of the most common lines taken by the SW hate brigade. It frustrates me because (as I think I said) it's both unfounded (as there's more than enough circumstantial evidence to conclude the evolution of the VI was a deliberate move on Empy's part) as it's irrelevant, as it's a 'criticism' (in my experience at least) only ever thrown at Russ and the Wolves.

 

 

I am also not sure where the heck you are getting that this is a bad thing or 'hate' from.

Sorry, I think I could have been clearer here. I wasn't accusing you of anything but the whole 'the Wolves weren't meant to be the hatchetmen because xyz' is a very common claim by the often vocal SW hatedom to belittle the faction as somehow uniquely deluded or hypocritical (of course I vehemently disagree with this) . Usually 'xyz' has the flavour of 'Russ was a presumptuous bully looking to throw his weight around' or 'the VIII/XII were the first choices, but Empy had to resort to the VI when the other 2 didn't work out'.

 

Hope this clarifies my position somewhat.

 

Eh... I think we can agree to disagree on the idea that Russ wasn't revolutionary, especially with the elaboration from the Lukas novel which dwells heavily on this stage of history funnily enough.

 

And while I do agree that folks hound (heh) on the Wolves an awful lot, they are hardly the most presumptuous Legions. It takes a shocking effort to read through the HH and not realize most Legions were high off of their own supply, to use the modern term. And the Wolves did seem to take pride in the task per page 81, while they dont really talk up the other angle at all. Granted the book indicates they are fairly fuzzy on the other angle. 

 

If we want to really have this discussion, people believe Angron and Talos with such frothing devotion that I have seen them attack ADB for stating anything that goes against their own narrative or when he pointed out the unreliable parts of his works. Half of the hate for the Angron Primarch novel is that some cannot handle that maybe Khârn and Angron are partially responsible for their mess, the same frankly applies to Kurze's novels. I am not arguing that Wolf fans dont have our frothing fanatics, every fanbase does, but it just happens that we somehow ended up a target for a bunch of the other bases' fanatics.

 

I'd also say you are taking it a bit lightly on the Iterators. Going by AK's opinion and heavily reinforced in the HH books, it really does seem like its just racism. There is no excuse for that BS of attributing their victories to the BA.

 

EDIT: We also have Russ saying that the Emp literally made him keep Fenris, I am not sure how that could be read as anything but an active hand in the change. Although I do not want to stress this too much since one of my favorite bits in Inferno is the idea that Russ is a superb social engineer.

Edited November 5, 2020 by StrangerOrders