Trajectory of the Black Books

[b1soul]

I'd just go for Peressimar and other great victories and stinging defeats the WS experienced during four years of fighting behind Traitor lines. Could also flesh out Jubal's background and renown, Jubal who got prematurely axed, I feel.

[Taliesin]

 

There is absolutely tonnes of content they could still do before moving on to the siege.

 

Shadow Crusade (proper)

Legions with more Chaos influence

Mars

Bata Garmon

Tallarn

 

And thats just a tiny sampling.

 

 

They had laid out previously at one of the weekenders a timeline of the Horus Heresy: I believe it also included:

 

The passage of the angel of death

 

The breaking of Anvilius

 

The Wolf Cull

 

The sea of fire/Titan Death/ Battle for Beta Gammon

 

 

Yeah thats a very good point actually, at one of the Weekenders, I think 2017, they showed a schematic showing these names and it was obviously suggested that these would be visited in the future. Of course we know things change all the times at FW in their planning...but it still suggests that the plan then was to at least consider these new battlegrounds. 

 

 

Another one I found was this one from 2017, speaking of Angelus.

 

 

 

Interesting to see again how that was all planned to be 1 book. All that is left from that is Dark Mechanicum which was supposed to be in 9 and so it seems obvious that book 10 will at least include DM, and then the question is what else would go with that to fill a book 10.

Edited November 4, 2020 by Taliesin

[Charlo]

Taking that timeline there is so much uncovered by the black books. I could be mistaken, but you can draw a line going down each column ending at:

• Phall
• Paramar
• Assault on Calth
• Armatura
• Xana Incursion
• Thramas
• Chondax
• Mezoa
• Manachea

Everything to the right of these is still uncovered, not to mention the gaps and "XXX" events.

[No Foes Remain]

I, honestly, prefer books like 4 and 6. It adds scale to the conflict and shows it wasn't just: Isstvan - Phall - Calth - Signus - Terra.

It adds some depth to it, showing other forces struggling against the might of the Legions who got all the best gear and the poor loyalist non-astartes can do nothing except make the traitor legions work for it.

 

I would perfer more of that spread throughout the 'main' stories, as that would give the writers a chance to update and expand rules and units (fixing the milita's grenadier squads swapping weapons they don't have for weapons they can't take because they don't have the weapon to swap from).

[b1soul]

Huge fan of Retribution and what did with the Black Shields

[Laughingman]

Some of the events mentioned in the Horus Heresy weekender timeline are really better served being done as a Adeptus Titanicus books: Beta Gammon/ Titandeath was a titan engagement That happened to have Astartes, The events of the cataclysm of iron make sense with minimal  Adeptus Astartes support

[MegaVolt87]

I think even the Second Battle of Prospero with WS vs. DG was a more natural fit than Chondax (which was always primarily WS vs. Orks).

Then there's all the skirmishes and battles after that, e.g. Dwell, Peressimar, Catullus Rift, Kalium Gate

Maybe FW will contradict itself and cover some of these in detail. Wouldn't be the first time they contradict

2nd Prospero battle kinda a non event. Morty essentially had an honour guard fleet for basically a diplomatic mission to welcome the Khan to team Horus. He made a run for it as soon as he could before he got trapped. It's not particularly interesting IMO.

[b1soul]

Well, the problem with that is...Retribution has a bunch of "non-events". Prospero II is probably more significant than any of those.

 

Above the planet, the WS fought a civil war and then, with the return of the Khan (who had been dueling Mortarion on the surface), the WS fleet proceeded to engage the DG fleet, with the extent of the fleet engagement left quite vague in Scars.

 

Plenty of flesh could be added in the same way Malevolence added flesh to how the WS fleet broke through the AL cordon.

[bluntblade]

Well, the problem with that is...Retribution has a bunch of "non-events". Prospero II is probably more significant than any of those.

 

Above the planet, the WS fought a civil war and then, with the return of the Khan (who had been dueling Mortarion on the surface), the WS fleet proceeded to engage the DG fleet, with the extent of the fleet engagement left quite vague in Scars.

 

Plenty of flesh could be added in the same way Malevolence added flesh to how the WS fleet broke through the AL cordon.

But Prospero II still wouldnt illustrate the themes, and the Chondax account both contradicts what Wraight wrote and doesn't really get into the Chaos stuff, whilst giving the AL what feels like one major role too many.

 

Retribution, I would argue, doesn't have non-events but rather depicts the kinds of smaller war which add up to the mad sprawl that is the Heresy. It makes the conflict feel bigger to me, whereas Malevolence doesn't.

Edited November 5, 2020 by bluntblade

[b1soul]

My point is that FW could pretty much contradict and do whatever they want at this point. The entire Prospero II affair including the civil strife could easily fit into a Retribution-like book. The theme is betrayal and temptation or whatever a skilled writer could produce.

 

I think any new black book covering the WS before the Siege (however unlikely) should focus on that almost blank period when the WS fought running battles against elements of four Traitor legions after Prospero II. I'd just take Prospero II over nothing before the Siege, but would prefer Peressimar etc.

[Blood-worm's Master]

Which conflict do you expect to see in book 10 (provided, it will be published at all)?

I'm not aware of any substantial rumours but since December 2019 and the news of removal of Dark Mechanicum from Crusade I was betting on Schism of Mars...

...until quite recently I remembered (still unreleased) Neil P. Roberts' pair of WB Praetors, first previewed in April  - and realised that so far all simillar models were released in connection to the black book upcoming (BA, AL, NL, DA) or freshly released (TS, SW, WS) at the time.

 

So now I'd say: Shadow Crusade (with Dark Mechanicum tacked on).

[Lucerne]

More AL screentime is desperately needed to flesh out just what they were up to for most of the Heresy.

[nagashnee]

Time for a mostly non marine book. Mars would allow dark mech, imperial army, knights and titans. Plus the fists would allow a few marines as well.

[Silent Observant]

There’s been quite an amount or radio silence since book 9. Interested to see what’s next, hopefully more next month as that is typically when the HH weekender is.... but who knows.

[Jareddm]

I know it was part of the older discussion, but I was under the impression the reason we got books 4 and 6 was because Bligh could write way faster than models could be made.  That they were basically just pressure release valves for Bligh.  With him passed, I don't know if FW has the authorial push for that excess of ideas.

[Noserenda]

I know it was part of the older discussion, but I was under the impression the reason we got books 4 and 6 was because Bligh could write way faster than models could be made.  That they were basically just pressure release valves for Bligh.  With him passed, I don't know if FW has the authorial push for that excess of ideas.

Well they chopped a third OFF the last book so it certainly feels like the reverse is true.

[Marshal Rohr]

There’s been quite an amount or radio silence since book 9. Interested to see what’s next, hopefully more next month as that is typically when the HH weekender is.... but who knows.

Unfortunately, to us it feels like radio silence. To them they’ve released Companions, Contekar, and Tarvitz in the intervening months which they will consider to be ‘support’.

[RedFurioso]

I know it was part of the older discussion, but I was under the impression the reason we got books 4 and 6 was because Bligh could write way faster than models could be made.  That they were basically just pressure release valves for Bligh.  With him passed, I don't know if FW has the authorial push for that excess of ideas.

Exactly. FW of old could afford to create filler books while working on more substantial projects like Inferno. Still, they released books every year and fans were happy.

But the current understaffed team... They are in no position to waste time on filler books. Imagine if fe get something like 'Persecution of Sarum' and after that we will have to wait a few more years until the next one. Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of Persecution of Sarum, but that's not what a majority of fans expect from Heresy now, given the state of the game.

And FW bosses understand it better than any of us here. So the team must release big hit after big hit in order to satisfy the audience.

Malevolence book with Sanguinius rules was a success, Crusade book with Lion rules was a success. What will be next is better to be BIG.

[Calibanite Knight Angel]

Here is my thoughts:
-The most recent Horus Heresy Book (Crusade) has a significantly different feel to the earlier books in the series. Now, I didn't get 7 or 8 so am not sure what they are like, and understand that Alan Bligh has sadly passed away so it was always bound to feel different without him. If the books were written the same way as, say, the first Horus Heresy Book (Betrayal), I'd love for them to keep turning them out, but as it is, I didn't love the narrative of the Thramas Crusade in Book 9. I felt that it was kept vague in its depictions of the battles (probably to leave it as a blank canvas for players). However, I feel like whereas the Forge World books of old would give detailed insight into the maneouvres and tactics involved in battles, giving the feeling of a detailed historical account, I feel like the new book just contains a list of generic battles where nothing interesting happens other than Night Haunter roaming round calling for the Lion to face him. I don't see much point in padding out the series just to cover events if those events aren't covered in any actually meaningful detail. The narrative of the Horus Heresy events took such a back foot in that book that they didn't even include any legendary missions, which are always a highlight and show dedication to the lore of the Heresy (did create my own though :)). Point is, if the rest of the series is going to be to this quality, I don't see much point churning out books just to cover each of the major events.

-Now, the appeal in Book 9 is in the Dark Angels. They receive plenty of lore, which I enjoyed. I feel like this is more extensive than any previous legion. Also of note is the number of rules available to them. I feel like they have more rules (when including upgrades that generic squads can take) than any other legion, and I absolutely love that. They also have plenty of new units and some great characters (would have been immensely disappointed had Corswain not been included, but fortunately am a fan of his entry). However, I would say that the Dark Angels, the last of the Space Marine Legions to receive FULL rules and units+characters is the real draw of the book. But what will future books have? There's no more new Space Marine Legions to include in the rules. Even the "filler" books (Conquest, Retribution) had BIG new things (Solar Auxilia, Space Marine Legion core rules for DA, BA, WS), as well as additional lovely inclusions (Big fan of the Knights Errant, but IMO they alone don't justify a book). However, these books also had strong lore sections, which is now missing from the latest release.

 

-Point is, without any big new factions, IMO the background is no longer strong enough to alone justify a black book. While they can release new characters and units, IMO the core Legiones Astartes army list (90% of 30k armies that people actually play) is well rounded and complete and anything added now will probably just feel like padding for its own sake (something I feel like 40k Space Marines struggled with for every Codex post 5th edition, culminating in Primaris Marines being created just so they could continue churning out Space Marines once they knew there was nowhere left to go). The only big faction I feel they have left is Dark Mechanicum, and I feel like that will be a modification of an existing army. I'd also like to see Imperial Assassins.

-The point I'm trying to make is that I'd be fine with a few more books if they were the same quality as they were at the start of the series, but with their current quality and lack of new factions left to introduce, I'd like for them to do a Mars book and then wrap the series up with Terra. They can always release new characters as PDFs (like they did with Farith Redloss and Holguin) or occassionally (but not too frequently) release a new edition of the Legions book to introduce new characters, but I feel like any more than that at the current quantity will just be needlessly drawn out padding with minimal actual substance. The campaigns in each book are good, but there's been 9 books now, so I don't think we need any more campaign rules other than something representing Mars, the Solar War and the Siege of Terra itself.

Anyway, just my two cents :)

[Blood-worm's Master]

To emphasise my point about book 10 being most likely Shadow Crusade:

it seems very unlikely to me the team would've considered Mars as a choice for book 10 before the decision was made, at some point in the second half of 2019, to cut Dark Mechanicum from Crusade (because earlier it would mean two consecutive books with strong DarkMech presence).

And I believe at least some early work for the next volume had already been done, or at least ideas developed, at the time the cut happened (not only models, like UM Contemptor and WB Praetors, but also writing) - so it was easier to add/expand on something like Sarum in order to tack on Dark Mechanicum than to scrap the work or put it on hold.

Also, with wealth of materials from BL, I think writing about Shadow Crusade would just be easier
 

Edited February 1, 2021 by Blood-worm's Master

[Marshal Rohr]

The real situation is we have no idea what FW is doing. Anuj has several projects in his CV online that have 2021 releases, but total silence so far makes me skeptical they will see daylight anytime soon. Rob C joined the SG studio. Not sure who took over for Anuj. 

[Blood-worm's Master]

The real situation is we have no idea what FW is doing. Anuj has several projects in his CV online that have 2021 releases, but total silence so far makes me skeptical they will see daylight anytime soon. Rob C joined the SG studio. Not sure who took over for Anuj. 

Who is Rob C?

 

Anuj's farwell sounded like it was just him and Neil recently - so it seems they didn't hire a new lead content writer after June 2019 job listing. Though I hope they at least found someone through the one posted last December.

 

All the models (with the exception of Arquitors) released in 2020 are by Fil Dunn and Neil P. Roberts but that only tells us there were two sculptors working on Heresy in the second part 2019 - until they show something new, we have no way of knowing if anything changed since then.

 

And as far as projects listed by Anuj are concerned, there is one unannounced from 2020 and two for 2021, so it looks a little bit like a black book and two red books - but that's of course another speculation on my part.

[Taliesin]

I see it is worthwhile to bring up again this post from the Heresy forum from November 2019 by Pendraigg, which is still, amazingly, the last concrete piece of info we have on Book 10.

 

 

Book 10

 

Book 10 is currently deep into production. Due to size restraints, the Dark Mechanicum army list that was originally planned for Book 9 is now going to be in Book 10. Alongside this will be rules for additional allies for both the loyalists and traitors - this will be along the lines of the Agents of the Emperor / Warmaster concepts from a few years ago. No further details as yet.

 

So, even then it was deep into production, and we know it will have the DM plus allies for Loyalists and traitors, this could for instance include the assassins mentioned upthread. 

 

What we can also conclude is that this is not enough to fill a book and thus why we speculated, what would Dark Mechanicum be matched with. Cause even if they change something and decide to drop the allies for loyalist and traitors ( I hope not) then this needs to be paired with a larger conflict, story etc. Nothing except finally doing the Schism of Mars book makes sense to me. 

 

Shadow Crusade could be a good book but it being book 10 seems extremely unlikely on this info from the Warhammer Open Day 2019.

Edited February 2, 2021 by Taliesin

[SkimaskMohawk]

I'm very curious how "size restraints" translates to the missing 100 pages, seeing as the taghmata list is 93 pages long.

 

I feel like it just wasn't fully developed and balanced for book 9s release rather than actual space. The mechanicum is famously overpowered, so adding in possessed/daemonic stuff to that wouldn't be the easiest to balance.

[Taliesin]

I think we can conclude that that must be the truth, because size restraints really wasnt the answer.

Looks like despite all the time they had, they couldnt quite get it done and wanted to get a book out so moved it to book 10.

 

Hopefully that means we now get a really solid Mars book.  But, I'd be interested and up for anything.