Trajectory of the Black Books

[Gederas]

I do think Book 10 will be the Shadow Crusade. The question is when we'll get the book.

 

 

I'm mostly with you on those points, Prim. Only thing I can add is that GW and FW aren't exactly great places to work. They're the EA of the miniature industry and even when compared to underpaid and overworked digital games jobs, trad games jobs are even worse off. Bligh was good because he'd been grandfathered into the company and could basically do what he wanted. Anuj left because he got easier better paying work. They're not really set up to get good talent that sticks around.

e: Hell they don't even credit codex writers anymore

Sounds like there is a workplace that needs to unionise

[Imren]

I don't think 30k is dying...but:

During the Alan Bligh times 30k enjoyed more independency from GW. The FW studio had the trust from GW to elaborate a game system from the 10-ish HH novels that came out a few years ealier than the black books and the FW 30k miniature range. Also at the time new paint style that was inspired from traditional modelling/painting of historical models (WWI/WWII tanks and aircrafts) using lot of oils and enamels for washing, rust effects, chipping, pitting and scratches was a bit of an exciting eye-opener among warhammer gamers that mostly knew nothing but traditional miniature painting with acrylic paints a lá GW. That style got so popular that FW paint studio employees jumped on their own businesses teaching the FW 30k paint style around the globe (EU, AUS, US etc) that further widened the 30k bushfire, expecially after the plastic boxed sets. Now we are talking the 30k pinnacle times of 2015-2017.

Nowadays, the situation is different, the FW studio had a large change in the staffing working with the 30k game, the direction in miniatures are diverted towards a less "realistic"-grimdark style and more towards a more blingy grimderpy GW style with more skulls and ditty-stuff and bling on the models. I think the new DA and EC captain Tarvitz models are an example of this diversion in style. Also the studio painters are all painting the new FW models in a traditional GW style with less dirt, grit and battle-worn look and more edge highlighting and shiny fancy fresh-out-of-the-factory look.

This shift in style from FW in my opinion is making the original fan base less interested in FW model range and more interested in 3rd party alternatives, especially for infantry. For vehicles the 3rd party alternatives (with own design IP, not recasters) is pretty much non existent. This reduces the FW revenue from infantry models and accessories sale and as a consequence they loose business to 3rd-party makers. Also my impression is that FW's pricing strategy is probably biting themselves in the tail as, for example; Australian prices are much higher than elsewhere on earth turning lot of aussies to recasters from China/Russia, I suspect Australia has the highest percentage och nicely built and playes 30k armies made from recasters compared to other regions.

Edited February 12, 2021 by Imren

[Marshal Rohr]

The crediting thing is because of the literal death threats, not corporate attitudes towards creatives.

[Jareddm]

The crediting thing is because of the literal death threats, not corporate attitudes towards creatives.

Indeed.  The same thing happened to the Psychic Awakening short stories after a certain Custodes vs Brazen Drakes story stirred up a lot of controversy. 

[Brofist]

When the community noticed a lack of credits, GW sold it to the community as a way to protect writers from fans. This isn't the real reason. Its because of $$. Recall when GW attempted to defend its Space Marine IP and lost in several key areas. One of those areas was because individual authors who had worked for them effectively had creative rights (its a long story). Omitting credits helps get around this in the future. This court case was also why GW went on a rampage to rename many factions to silly new things- they didn't actually hold copy rights over them, so they had to create something that did. Another less obvious reason is that omitting credits drives down labor costs- many writers are parts of unions with strict requirements to use only union labor and credit only union labor if you contract with them. By omitting credits GW is able to use whomever they want, because they credit nobody.

 

The net result is that, if you're a respected writer or somebody who is building a reputation, you're not going to work for a company that won't even credit you when there are more respectable, better paying, alternatives. Not to mention you don't have to move to Nottingham lol. Young upstarts stomach this and work through the poor hours and pay to build up a CV to go work somewhere else. Few competent people stay- this is basically organizational "brain drain" and FW has it too.

 

Sounds like there is a workplace that needs to unionise

Definitely. I won't derail the thread, but the game industries have needed them for a long time. The biggest push I've ever seen was over the last few years so I'm hopeful.

Edited February 12, 2021 by Brofist

[Vazzy]

@marshal rohr is that the guy who had the primaris "30k sons of horus" army that he never played 30k with and was just an ultramarines 40k army or am I mixing that up with someone else.

That’s the one. My local heresy group were pretty out out by that, especially considering the army didn’t even look like a heresy army honestly.

 

Honestly, FW is not doing an amazing job instilling loyalty OR confidence in fans. It’s concerning, especially considering how vibrant the heresy community used to be. Looking forward to new updates on all my favorite heresy logs used to be how I started my day. Instagram fills that void now to a certain extent but it’s just a bit depressing.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Well the guy shouldn't be harassed for his army since he obviously put a lot of passion in it. But, whoever okayed that article as a horus heresy piece should ashamed of themselves; it's pretty much the biggest kick in the pants to people who actually enjoy 30k in both models and rules systems.

[GodEmperorOfMankind]

Why is it a kick in the pants? As you stated, he'd obviously put a lot of passion into his army, it's certainly far better painted than anything I've ever done, and it's complete.

 

He enjoyed the fluff of the sons of horus and wanted to make an army that reflected what inspired him.

 

So he didn't use FW only models and used primaris marines as regular ones, possibly because it was more cost effective, possibly because he preferred the models. He still did far more than most of us do, and it was good enough that someone thought hey that should be in white dwarf!

 

So he doesn't play heresy, maybe there's no one near him that does? Maybe he doesn't want to buy the many outdated army books it requires to figure out what rules will make his army legal or not.

 

Maybe he just wanted to have a fun game with his nicely painted models and the easiest way to do that is to rock up to a store and say these are 40k ultras, coz most people have an idea of what they're up against then.

 

The point is the fluff got him inspired enough to collect and paint an entire army, and not only that get HH featured in WD and exposed to lots of other folks that may not know about it, and in a way that's potentially more accessible to people.

 

Surely that's the take away, not omg those aren't the correct plastic figures for my game?

[Dark Legionnare]

Why is it a kick in the pants? As you stated, he'd obviously put a lot of passion into his army, it's certainly far better painted than anything I've ever done, and it's complete.

 

He enjoyed the fluff of the sons of horus and wanted to make an army that reflected what inspired him.

 

So he didn't use FW only models and used primaris marines as regular ones, possibly because it was more cost effective, possibly because he preferred the models. He still did far more than most of us do, and it was good enough that someone thought hey that should be in white dwarf!

 

So he doesn't play heresy, maybe there's no one near him that does? Maybe he doesn't want to buy the many outdated army books it requires to figure out what rules will make his army legal or not.

 

Maybe he just wanted to have a fun game with his nicely painted models and the easiest way to do that is to rock up to a store and say these are 40k ultras, coz most people have an idea of what they're up against then.

 

The point is the fluff got him inspired enough to collect and paint an entire army, and not only that get HH featured in WD and exposed to lots of other folks that may not know about it, and in a way that's potentially more accessible to people.

 

Surely that's the take away, not omg those aren't the correct plastic figures for my game?

I concur, 100%. The takeaway is, that I also see the "kick in the pants" point too. Because for the most part, all the 30k folks (At least those that I know well enough beyond a post or two on B&C) are pretty die-hard fluff addicts and adherents.

 

I guess I shouldn't say "die-hard" because not even all of them are going TOTALLY hardcore, like, correct matching unit markers, companies, etc... But enough to care about the MK of armor from the time period, equipment, etc...

 

See both sides, but I do agree with you that the dude shouldn't be maligned for all his hard work.  I'd say more than likely, his choice was cost. We all know how cost-prohibitive FW stuff is. But at the same time, yeah, using it as any level of a "poster-child" for 30k, when so many 30k folks are those "fluff-adherents" was bound to leave a sour taste is a lot of mouths. 

 

Like Mohawk said, that guy who made the force did great work, and should get no hate, they look stonking great.  Everybody has some project that's not "totally adherent" but is an homage to something else.  But it's just that, an homage, not "30k" which I'd say, by definition, is about being "30k"; IE, sticking to models, fluff, etc...  Maybe that's just personal preference I suppose, just like most things are subjective when it comes to taste, but I FEEL (Emphasis on that underlined, I'm not saying it is, just merely mulling the idea over verbally) like it's the M.O. of all the 30k folks I know.

 

The choice to hold it aloft as a facet of "30k" by GW was a "wrong" move, so to speak.  Especially amid the fact that the first-born releases since 8th edition (Outside FW) have been scarily scarce, no word play intended.  What is there, that one terminator chaplain that was a special model, I think, In almost three years? 

 

We all know Primaris is a lore-schism for the sake of GW making folks rebuy marines they hadn't needed to since starting to collect in 2004. That said, it wouldn't kill them to help lift up the ideals of 30k folks (and even the 40k first-born lovers) to have some spotlights on those relevant areas fit the bill as it were. Or, have some more first-born releases, or at least, for the love of god, rehash the old first-born kits to all be Dark-Vengeance-and-onwards scale appropriate.

 

/my highly subjective two cents.

Edited February 13, 2021 by Dark Legionnare

[WrathOfTheLion]

I think both viewpoints can be appropriate. As an individual, I don't care what person does as their army, it doesn't bother me in any way. But it's wholly unprofessional I think as a publication for GW/FW the company, who owns and publishes this game system, as it pushes across that they don't even care to showcase an actual army for it. It very obviously is going to rub wrong with much of the fanbase, which is something that someone seasoned in their publications should have recognized.

 

Not to derail it any further, just noting that one needs to separate what the person painting and building the army does from the publication about it done by their communication teams.

Edited February 13, 2021 by WrathOfTheLion

[SkimaskMohawk]

Let's break this down, point by bad point;

 

"Why is it a kick in the pants? As you stated, he'd obviously put a lot of passion into his army, it's certainly far better painted than anything I've ever done, and it's complete"

 

A fully painted army is nice, and I'm not knocking his personal decision to make his army. But neither of those make it a horus heresy army. And as a side note, being fully painted in an advertising space is what's called an expectation and not worthy of accolades.

 

"He enjoyed the fluff of the sons of horus and wanted to make an army that reflected what inspired him."

 

Ya, he had a great inspiration for his army. But that doesn't make it a horus heresy army either.

 

 

"So he didn't use FW only models and used primaris marines as regular ones, possibly because it was more cost effective, possibly because he preferred the models. He still did far more than most of us do, and it was good enough that someone thought hey that should be in white dwarf!"

 

This is where you're losing the plot; I don't care if his armour/vehicle marks are incorrect, I don't care if he was counts-asing a 40k army/models to stand in for a 30k army. It wasn't either. It was a 40k army; he used primaris marines as primaris marines and razorbacks as razorbacks. He used horus as guilliman. It is a 40k army. The problem is exactly that some guy in white dwarf thought it was a good idea to showcase it as a horus heresy army, when it's not. As another aside, I've fully built and painted five heresy armies; doing so doesn't make me or anyone else special or as a bad justification for things.

 

"Maybe he just wanted to have a fun game with his nicely painted models and the easiest way to do that is to rock up to a store and say these are 40k ultras, coz most people have an idea of what they're up against then."

 

He fully admitted to never having played 30k; it's a 40k army he made a cool aesthetic for. It's not a horus heresy army by design.

 

"The point is the fluff got him inspired enough to collect and paint an entire army, and not only that get HH featured in WD and exposed to lots of other folks that may not know about it, and in a way that's potentially more accessible to people."

 

He wasn't inspired to paint or collect an army for horus heresy. He made an explicit 40k army, which was featured under the magazine's pretence of it being a horus heresy army. Theres been a vast reduction in 30k promotion and the only piece that comes out is misrepresenting a guys 40k army.

 

"Surely that's the take away, not omg those aren't the correct plastic figures for my game?"

 

The take away is that the White dwarf team decided that an army that's themed after a legion, but is explicitly meant for 40k (and never been used for 30k) is better representative of Horus Heresy than any number of fully painted actual horus heresy armies.

 

It's like if they start promoting Old World and an example army is Dark Elves. You see models on square bases and in ranks; theres a ton of witches and some supporting light cav in the doomfire warlocks. But wait, there's melusai, and morathi, and endless spells. The guy never actually played WFB and he actually just uses the square bases to get more efficient melee placement; it's an AoS daughters of khaine army. He can't comment on anything from a WFB dark elf army. It's not his fault that he made the aos army and someone made an article about him; it's the teams fault for trying to present it as a WFB army and drum up support, while ignoring the community.

 

Edit wrath of the lion got it. It's a 40k army, promoted as a 30k army. It's not the model choice that makes it that, it's the conscious though have making it explicitly for that system. And it's the magazine's fault for trying to spin it the other way.

Edited February 13, 2021 by SkimaskMohawk

[Jareddm]

When the community noticed a lack of credits, GW sold it to the community as a way to protect writers from fans. This isn't the real reason. Its because of $$. Recall when GW attempted to defend its Space Marine IP and lost in several key areas. One of those areas was because individual authors who had worked for them effectively had creative rights (its a long story). Omitting credits helps get around this in the future. This court case was also why GW went on a rampage to rename many factions to silly new things- they didn't actually hold copy rights over them, so they had to create something that did. Another less obvious reason is that omitting credits drives down labor costs- many writers are parts of unions with strict requirements to use only union labor and credit only union labor if you contract with them. By omitting credits GW is able to use whomever they want, because they credit nobody.

That might be true for codexes, but all of the earlier Psychic Awakening stories still have their authors, and in fact, if you download the later stories as pdfs, they have the author listed as well. As if the intention was to have them but was changed at the last minute due to circumstances. But that's all I'll say on that.