Intercessors now

[Boyadventurer]

What are you guys thinking as far as intercessors now (let's assume an all primaris army so as not to distract ourselves). I used to do ABR and SBR squads both with an aggressor for advance/move and shoot w/o penalty and you could call it a day with some serious anti-horde and anti-elite infantry right there.

 

Now that we're spoiled for options, I'm having a hard time figuring out their place in a list (besides the mandatory 5 to take to get 5 outriders). Heavy Ints are a little easier to figure out since their extra toughness provides their niche already, but where does that leave assault, veteran, and the regular rifle ones (lets call them tactical)? We don't even need them to sit on an objective all game since we can obsec tougher/faster/harder to hit units now with the kill teams.

 

Do assault and veteran Ints even matter to us? If you want assault Ints, you're either paying for 5 tactical Ints first or taking them outside of a KT. I don't think they bring enough benefit to mix in with the tacticals -- adding a few in a KT isn't going to be a charge deterrent like flame aggressors used to be, and it's not like you can get in an assault srg to bring in an extra power weapon or anything. Outside of a kill team, might as well pay the extra 3ppm to upgrade them to Veterans since we're probably not going to be starved for Obsec. I think ultimately they are just competing with outriders, so it's a matter of more attacks per points (two vets have 10 attacks on the charge for 44 points, an outrider has 6 for 45) vs the speed and toughness boost. I guess YMMV depending on what you need.

 

Do we even have a role we need tactical Ints to play? We can't do Stalkers + Hellfire now to bring that cheap plasma equivalent, we don't really need them for their obsec. I don't feel like there's much worth in building them around the SIA strat, and in a KT you can't use the rapid fire strat on them so neither of those carry any weight. I feel like we'll probably have a lot of high quality shots already coming from other units we would want to take (Heavy Ints, plas inceptors, eliminators), so SBR is a little redundant. Whether Aggressors still make it in lists or not, there's definitely going to be less volume of fire going around now. I think ABR would be a safe bet. You get a bit more anti horde without dedicating any more points to it. Plus you get that extra mobility with them. Even with the price hike, the grenade launcher may be worth considering now.

 

Honestly, Tactical Ints (when combat squadded out) are probably the prime candidate for completing actions. In a vacuum where everything is full strength, their firepower is probably going to have the least impact and is easily missed.

This turned into a pretty long form thing, but let me know what you guys are thinking.

[leth]

Intercessors are only good enough to unlock 5 man squads of something else IMO. Otherwise I would just take vets. 

[Debauchery101]

Well even without SIA there are still lots of advantages for taking baseline units of Assault Intercessors and normal intercessors. We get teleporting, our flexible doctrines and specialist upgrades.

 

A fortis team can be built with a couple hell blasters creating a pseudo tactical squad.

 

While our proteus teams and firstborn marines are definitely provide the best avenue to customize for being really good at 1 thing they still have trouble for efficient durability. Their durability is from equipment. Intercessors use CP for that. Which I think is more efficient. When you pay points for stuff it allows for less choice on how valuable those options end up being in game.

For intercessors..they could be making actions and holding objectives but never need to use Transhuman Physiology.

 

I think the best veterans squads and teams are going to be for playing really aggressive so that storm shields, hvy hammers and combi weapons get their money's worth.

 

Intercessors are just what they are in any other marine lists but with few extra DW faction rules. All of their bolter variants do well.

 

As of right now just play actual games. DW almost has way too many options. But that's a good thing because you can tailor them to how you like to play. The fact we can use a doctrine from another chapter when it lines up for optimal use is amazing. We have as of right now the best psychic line.

 

Personally I like mobility and deployment shenanigans. So I'm only taking 1 fortis squad to get access to a 5 man outrider unit my chaplain can ride with.

[thinkerofuselessthings]

Intercessors are only good enough to unlock 5 man squads of something else IMO. Otherwise I would just take vets. 

 

This is an interesting statement. 

 

I'm not that sure about it, both units have some pros and cons. 

 

However I can understand why you say that, Vets are more versatile Intercessors now. 

 

Compare the two buildings:

 

- Intercessor, bolt rifle: 20 pts

 

- Vets, deathwatch boltgun (SIA), astartes chainsword: 20 pts

 

Same costs, but Vets have also astartes chainsword (so Ap -1 and +1 attack). They have also the same Bolt Rifle Profile using SIA, but better versatility. It could appears that Vets are better, but where Intercessor shine is the stratagem support. Consider "Gene Wrought Might", "Transhuman Phisiology", they are 2 powerful stratagems that in the right moment can make the difference. 

 

I don't want to say that Intercessor are better, but both units have their utility. 

 

Personally I'll use Intercessor as objective grabber, leaving Vets with more dedicated tasks.

[GrinNfool]

They make good ablative wounds for outriders or hellblasters?  Cheaper than vets if you are wanting stalkers too (5 pts cheaper but no native SIA) and one of the few viable targets for the SIA strat, bad as it is.

 

I think they still have uses honestly, 5 int 5 outriders is still giving you 30 t5 wounds, while being a reasonable melee threat.

Edited November 1, 2020 by GrinNfool

[McGibs]

I had a very intercessor focus army for 8th, and after a few games they still have their place, but they arent really a backbone anymore. I think these new deathwatch armies play best with a mix of everything rather than just spamming a single type of killteam.

Hellblaster fortis teams are still a very solid choice, especially with the new assault variant. With all the strat and support character buffs, I no longer feel like they're just a suicide deepstrike plasma squad. Even just maxing out intercessors in a fortis squad and slapping a specialism on them seems like they'd do work without needing to build a super-squad.

[leth]

There is no strategem that I would burn on regular intercessors when there are other options, both of those I would burn on my outriders or ATvs which is why I didn’t factor them in. 

[thinkerofuselessthings]

There is no strategem that I would burn on regular intercessors when there are other options, both of those I would burn on my outriders or ATvs which is why I didn’t factor them in. 

 

I understand, but is surely a point of view. 

 

It is not rare that I need to have those Intercessor alive on that objective. 

 

Sure Outrider and ATV are better target for precious stratagem, but sometimes you need to choose depending on the game course...

[Mobius0288]

Just some points I saw looking through the SM codex and the DW leaks if you're looking to make intercessors work for you.

 

-Auto Bolt rifles still have the furthest range with the most amount of shots amongst the bolter types. If you want the most dakka at the furthest range (foot slogging troops for example), if you have this as an option. With no SIA, maybe some assault hellblasters could be a fun mix up. Certainly not the most efficient choice but also, you've made them a kill team now.

-The "Rapid Fire" Strat lets an intercessor unit fire twice, regardless of weapon choice. A unit of 10 (any weapon) being beacon'd over on turn 1 AND you've chosen tactical doctrine this turn... decent combo. 2 CPs.

-If you have the CP or intercessors are the work horse of your army, you could also look at Adaptive Tactics - for 2 CP, change your chapter tactic to imperial fists' for even more bolter power. It appears to be permanent for the remainder of the battle so beware and time it well. This applies to vanguard as well but focusing on just intercessors.

-Veteran Intercessors I cant seem to work out in my head... would rather take assault intercessors and pair that with "suffer not the alien to live" and "Honor the Chapter" strats.

-Assault Intercessors are slightly cheaper than regular intercessors. If you just want bodies for objectives, you could combat squad 5 and 5. Or I doubt we are maxing out 6 troop choices in a normal game, so you may not even need to combat squad... bring another unit with a Sgt!

 

 

All other points that I can think of were covered previously.

[Charlo]

Heavy Intercessors with Stalker Bolt Rifles, using the stratagem to get SIA and then the other one to shoot twice (which gives you double shots using SIA) could be a nice anvil to play around, if a little CP heavy.

 

Though getting 20 of those Stalker Bolt Rifle shots is very nice and somewhat of a reason to use the Devastator Doctrine.

 

=====

 

Veteran Intercessors are a weird one... I actually think they're workable moreso in Deathwatch than any other Marine army however.

 

While they lack obj sec, having 3A base and access to Transhuman means you can make them a pretty nice Anchor. The Deathwatch CT helps against Xenos in melee, buffing them and the wound rolls from the CT are nice too.

 

They probably don't need to worry about Obj Sec either with things like Kill Team combat squadding too!

[Debauchery101]

I would say limit your intercessors you put in kill teams.

Intercessors in other marine lists can be brutal. Dw makes them better.

 

I have 20. 10 with stalkers 10 with auto bolters. After a couple games last night im thinking to take a full 10 man squad to deep strike and rapid fire. That 10 man bolter spam has never been better

Edited November 1, 2020 by Debauchery101

[Master Sheol]

Intercessors and Heavy intercessors in a DW army are just a tax to unlock troop role for other units IMHO

They have a lesser role compared to veterans now that firstborns have 2W too

 

They are just good objective grabbers

 

Basi cally they are for DW what scouts were for old firstborn armies

 

my2cents

[Prot]

It's so incredibly weird to me to hear Intercessors as a 'tax' when they are the back bone of other marine armies. Maybe this codex is too good? To call out the backbone of the Codex Astartes armies as something you're simply forced to take to unlock other options.

 

I mean that's what this implies to me. As someone who plays 1-2 times a week and has had dozens and dozens of games with Ultra's and White Scars against a wide variety of opponents, I would definitely not agree with that assessment.

 

The thing to keep in mind (especially for those of you not playing/unable to play 40K - because this isn't a direct 'efficiency' statement) is that the way GW designed Primaris to use a lot of the rules turned into strats. 

 

Yes, I agree right now there is a valid argument for First Born being very competent in certain configurations but those Intercessors are still just a very solid back bone and to grant a larger (mixed) Primaris squad "ObSec" is huge. It is a huge factor when playing the tournament scenarios. 

 

Again, literally dozens of games have taught me this. I think really at the end of the day a healthy blend is what's going to come out of this. 

[Charlo]

Yeah, they certainly aren't a tax!

[thinkerofuselessthings]

It's so incredibly weird to me to hear Intercessors as a 'tax' when they are the back bone of other marine armies. Maybe this codex is too good? To call out the backbone of the Codex Astartes armies as something you're simply forced to take to unlock other options.

 

I mean that's what this implies to me. As someone who plays 1-2 times a week and has had dozens and dozens of games with Ultra's and White Scars against a wide variety of opponents, I would definitely not agree with that assessment.

 

The thing to keep in mind (especially for those of you not playing/unable to play 40K - because this isn't a direct 'efficiency' statement) is that the way GW designed Primaris to use a lot of the rules turned into strats. 

 

Yes, I agree right now there is a valid argument for First Born being very competent in certain configurations but those Intercessors are still just a very solid back bone and to grant a larger (mixed) Primaris squad "ObSec" is huge. It is a huge factor when playing the tournament scenarios. 

 

Again, literally dozens of games have taught me this. I think really at the end of the day a healthy blend is what's going to come out of this. 

 

I totally agree. 

 

They are a valuable option, an optimal backbone for our strategies.

 

Moreover, are an incredibile base for awesome conversions 

Edited November 2, 2020 by thinkerofuselessthings

[GrinNfool]

Eh I don't think tax was the right word to use, but the feeling isn't entirely wrong.  I would guess it was meant more as a comparison.  Adding vets, even extra vets to a proteus never feels wrong due to SIA, and versatility of weapons.  You don't really have a compelling reason to add more intercessors to a squad, because they are a vehicle to add hell blasters and outriders to your army.  They aren't bad in their own right, but if you don't want a naked outrider/hellblaster squad they are necessary.  Its more just the argument of how primaris are set up and vets are set up.

 

I tend to view the primaris kill teams more as tacts, you have your mooks to catch bullets, and you have the important weapons, you are trying to protect.  You generally aren't going to take a wound on your inceptor/aggressor/eradicator over putting that wound on a heavy intercessor right?  That doesn't make the heavy intercessor bad... but his job when not shooting is to catch bullets in place of another model.  Same goes for an intercessor/hellblaster squad.  Even an int/outrider squad, though if you have an apothecary there is an argument to taking wounds on 1 outrider after you lose your first interecessor, since rezzing a 4 wound model is more efficient.  One of their roles is bullet sponge, and to be honest thats one of their roles in traditional marine chapters too.  Go stand in dangerous places to hold objectives while pulling fire away from more points valuable models.

[Qui-Gon]

So I wasn't really feeling Heavy Intercessors, but after a closer look, they replicate the feel of the old fortis squad but pay a little bit more for the privledge of all being gravis. Granted the sergeant doesn't have a hammer, and I wish to the Emperor he did, but I can comfortably replicate the strategies of old with them. Not that put out at all.

[Daynga-Zone]

So I wasn't really feeling Heavy Intercessors, but after a closer look, they replicate the feel of the old fortis squad but pay a little bit more for the privledge of all being gravis. Granted the sergeant doesn't have a hammer, and I wish to the Emperor he did, but I can comfortably replicate the strategies of old with them. Not that put out at all.

For me they’re either with a bunch of aggressors and with their volume of PF attacks I don’t need the extra melee too bad, or in the backfield having used combat squads to give plasma inceptors obsec and maybe a specialism. I agree though they make me feel better about being able to give ablative wounds to an aggressor blob. T5 3W goes a long way with the new 5+ FNP power. Really excited for this supplement after reading through it.

 

Overall I agree with others that intercessors are fine, they’re a really good troops unit on their own, but I’m only taking them to protect some hellblasters.

[Lemondish]

-If you have the CP or intercessors are the work horse of your army, you could also look at Adaptive Tactics - for 2 CP, change your chapter tactic to imperial fists' for even more bolter power. It appears to be permanent for the remainder of the battle so beware and time it well. This applies to vanguard as well but focusing on just intercessors.

 

It is unfortunately just for a turn, though that doesn't mean it isn't powerful.

 

So I wasn't really feeling Heavy Intercessors, but after a closer look, they replicate the feel of the old fortis squad but pay a little bit more for the privledge of all being gravis. Granted the sergeant doesn't have a hammer, and I wish to the Emperor he did, but I can comfortably replicate the strategies of old with them. Not that put out at all.

That is a good point, though they unfortunately do not seem to ignore the penalty for advancing and firing assault weapons any longer. I'm imagining these will be one hell of a durable unit given everyone is T5, 3 wounds each, and can benefit from the Codex Stratagem Unyielding in the Face of Death to add +1 to saving throws against D1 weapons.

[Qui-Gon]

@Lemondish: You can 2 CP make them white scars if you're that worried about advance and fire penalties, or if you're going against Eldar pay 1 CP and ignore modifiers. There are tricks we can use to get around it.

[Master Sheol]

The problem about intercessors in DW now is that they are the same points of Veterans and have the same profile but 7LD instead of 8LD and they don't have SIA unless you spend 2 CP per turn on stratagems and on top of that veterans have astartes chainsword for free or powersword for +3 points

The veterans have access to Storm Shields that give them 2+/4++ and to a wide range of melee and shooting weapons

The veterans unlocks in the proteus kill team three units that are useful like terminators, veteran bikers and vanguard veterans (even if none of them have access to SIA they can ignore this with the wargear options they have) while the intercessors can unlock to troops only two units cause assault intercessors are already troops

 

IMHO intercessors are a good unit but inferior to veterans so i would take them only if i wanted to have hellblasters/outriders as troops

 

And the same goes for heavy Intercessors that have a bettere profile/gun but costs 28 pints/model but can make troops three really goos units like the Inceptors, eradicators and aggressors  

Edited November 2, 2020 by Master Sheol

[leth]

Right, I don’t mean they are BAD, quite the opposite, they are pretty good. I personally would not take them other than to unlock 5 man units of something else. However that is for the style of list I want to build.

 

for another list they are perfectly valid and powerful see some people taking 10 man units and doing those CP strategem synergies you have talked about. 

I just look at how quickly my CP disappear pre-game and see how much will be used for certain things. 

Edited November 3, 2020 by leth

[Finkmilkana]

One way to think about them might be that they are a (still quite useful) tax if taken in a kill team (which, if I’m not mistaken, stops them from using some of the stratagems that make them good), but a great unit if taken on their own. Edited November 3, 2020 by Finkmilkana

[Master Sheol]

One way to think about them might be that they are a (still quite useful) tax if taken in a kill team (which, if I’m not mistaken, stops them from using some of the stratagems that make them good), but a great unit if taken on their own.

They are a good unit taken in another SM chapter but in DW veterans are better

Intercessors become better when you use them in a Killteam to unlock Hellblasters as troops acting as ablative wounds that have a good shooting impact too (basically some kind of primaris tactical squad)

About unlocking outriders the goonhammer article is clear: outriders are good but veterans bikers are better and veterans are a better "tax" to get troops bikers than intercessors to get troops outsiders

Edited November 4, 2020 by Master Sheol

[leth]

Can’t fall into the mathhammer trap in Deathwatch. Mathhammer often doesn’t factor in thresholds unless it is at the most basic level. Nor does it include situational variables. Your bikes are not worried about Str 4 weapons. So being more efficient against those weapons doesn’t really matter much. It is the str 8 high damage weapons that are the concern and outriders have access to transhuman. Outriders have -1 AP on their guns, so you are doubling your output against marines in cover. 

 

At the end of the day it doesn’t matter if a 8 man unit is more efficient, our unit size is capped at 5. It’s not like you are buying a 5 man and an 3 man. Buffs are also on a per unit basis, you get more putting the buff on a 5 man outrider unit than a 5 man vet bike unit. 
 

much of that mathhammer relies on not having a FNP, in those situations a outrider gains a lot more than a vet biker does against damage 2 weapons. 

Edited November 4, 2020 by leth