Intercessors now

[Mandragola]

I think vets are the better troop choice now. They have the same exact profile except for better LD and a more versatile gun. They get chainswords for free and cheaper options for the Sergeant, even before you start looking at other options.

 

The ABR is sort of still interesting as you get more weight of fire than vets can do, especially at 24". In general I think that's the best gun for intercessors. Thing is, nothing very much about the Deathwatch rules combos with ABRs. If you want lots of ABR intercessors, why play Deathwatch? They aren't bad, but other chapters have clear advantages, I think.

 

The weirdness of DW outriders seems to be the main point in taking intercessors now. Grab a 5 man squad of bikes and a combat squad with 5 ABRs and a grenade launcher. Repeat as desired. Thing is, as good as outriders are, the intercessors still have to do something or they're just a tax.

 

The SIA strat is an option. It works best on stalker rifles really and it's not great value on a 5 man squad. In theory you could take a 10 man stalker squad and spam the SIA strat on them but does that actually sound all that good? Not to me, to be honest.

[Irbis]

It's so incredibly weird to me to hear Intercessors as a 'tax' when they are the back bone of other marine armies. Maybe this codex is too good?

What? "Good"? In what universe?

 

My impression of new DW book - it's garbage. Maybe it's ""good"" in a sense you can cobble together good wombo combo from all the optional parts you have. Maybe. As DW book? It sucks. To me, there were three pillars of DW since their first inception - special ammo, esoteric, exotic gear, kill teams. New book ruined all three - colossal nerf to SIA availability, deletion of special gear across the board (I really like how over half of it is locked to single models in team Cassius, it might as well not exist...), and the destruction of 8th edition primaris kill teams into three bland, same-same units lacking any special rules (which is really laughable considering squatmarines can still mix bikes, terminators, jump packs and foot infantry, no problem).

 

What remains just doesn't feel like DW. Sure, you can cobble together 5 outriders. Or 5 eradicators. Maybe it's even good. But did any of you pictured 5 identical, regimented models with zero wargear options as 'DW kill team' just a month ago? No? Thought so. Intercessors are a tax because they don't really synergize with DW in any way (not even option of taking frakking xenophase blade...). They are mainstay in other chapters because you can pick say bolter fusillades trait, put lieutenant with them, and they work - and funnily enough, they feel more like DW than actual DW does then, because their shooting becomes more dangerous without jumping through 57549 hoops for it. You also don't have competition of DW vets making them obsolete in all respects reminding you how terribad at balancing the book DW writers are (seriously, DW intercessors need either SIA back yesterday or big point drop to really compete).

 

But my real point is, new SM/DW book just killed my faith in the whole project. If you had an army of squatmarines, you probably didn't even notice, but consider this - in 8th edition, Intercessors were OK DW unit. Not the best, but they had SIA and kill teams and they somehow fit and felt like they belonged. Now? First, came huge, and really uncalled for (to not say dumb) decision to give all squatmarines 2W, overnight destroying half of the statline space SM had and making the whole army feel more bland and less of a choice than primaris ever did. Then DW index took away SIA, and the supplement killed kill teams. All three combined into colossal nerf to Intercessors - even though funnily enough underlying unit was technically untouched. It's just everything else became far better and they lost all support they had, along with the feel of DW unit with it. And the things people suggest to prop them up? SM stratagem and SM character. Not DW, SM ones, that would work just as well on SM, well supported Intercessors.

 

I was halfway serious suggesting just using UM or RG rules for DW last edition. Now I am seriously considering it and skipping the supplement - at least that way I won't be constantly reminded that the expensive primaris squads I painted became virtually worthless overnight. Yes, no 5x outrider. But, funnily enough, DW veteran SM equivalent, Sternguard, kept SIA-lite and is now better at shooting with bolters than actual DW vets with SIA These nice vanguard units DW finally gained after colossal post-Shadowspear idiocy? They are basically DW vets, only 1/3 more expensive and worse in most measurable ways. Sure, maybe there is wombo combo that will make them work in some niche situation. But in most games? Why bother, just take vets. Or play SM and actually have working synergies. Hmm.

 

Yes, yes, I heard you saying 'DW is more customizable'. Except, not really. See the blackshield? Iconic DW character? I used to put one in every squad. Now? You can't add them to kill team, and if you add one to veterans, you will put them into blast threshold. So most people won't bother, even if they gained nice rule. They are dead as part of the army. And funnily enough, the fact SIA is on so little guns killed the customization too - you might as well buy a tactical squad, DW sprue, arm them with bolters, slap pads on, presto, two veteran units. And this is most efficient and cheap way to build DW now. All these options, special gear? Most of them won't matter, and these few that do you can buy on bit sites. Maybe it's strong, I don't know. But it's not really what DW used to be, is it?

[GrinNfool]

So you wanted primaris DW to be the only viable option still, and the vets should just take a back seat?  At the same time you complain about customizability?  I mean, vets are ridiculously customizable with access to several weapons that only DW have access to.  I get it you hate old school marines, but the vet models are almost as new as the primaris, along with being the main unit that brings all the special DW gear, I don't think the DW vets are being squatted soon lol.

 

If you aren't happy with the supplement I sympathize, as a few of the issues you pointed out I do agree with.  However I do think several things in the supplement are home runs.  Currently I think both primaris teams and vet teams serve a purpose, and are useful.  Due to that I don't think the entire supplement can just be labled garbage,  I don't know about "wombo combos" and the like but I don't think DW will be top tier, at the same token I think they will be a functional army at least.

 

Obviously if you dislike the supplement to that extent by all means play another marine army, most of them are brokenly strong at present so you have your pick.  While I can agree with some of your critiques I also disagree with your overall assessment of the book, and units in the book.  At the end of the day you should play what you enjoy and doesn't frustrate you, rules change but your models will still be there later.

[Qui-Gon]

My impression of new DW book - it's garbage. Maybe it's ""good"" in a sense you can cobble together good wombo combo from all the optional parts you have. Maybe. As DW book? It sucks. To me, there were three pillars of DW since their first inception - special ammo, esoteric, exotic gear, kill teams. New book ruined all three - colossal nerf to SIA availability, deletion of special gear across the board (I really like how over half of it is locked to single models in team Cassius, it might as well not exist...), and the destruction of 8th edition primaris kill teams into three bland, same-same units lacking any special rules (which is really laughable considering squatmarines can still mix bikes, terminators, jump packs and foot infantry, no problem).

 

 

 

If that is your impression, then nothing I am going to say is going to change your mind. You've obviously made up your mind, and posting this is likely to be a waste of time in trying to get you to see another angle, but it will provide a counter point to others, so they don't only see the sour grapes.

 

First off, as a book focused around Deathwatch from a lore perspective, I don't like this book. It is smaller than the other Codex Supplements, it has so little lore in it as to be laughable as a premier book to showcase the army. You got more fluff in the 7E and 8E books than in this one, and in truth I'm keeping my older books partly because of that fact.

 

Second, as a codex supplement meant to add onto Codex Space Marines, this book is amazing. They FIXED the problems with Deathwatch; poor anti tank, no infiltration, no snipers, no versatility in unit selection, no additional tanks (despite it stating in the lore that they have full access to everything), no phobos, no support characters, restricted on relic choices, warlord traits, stratagems, et al. I'd have traded the 8E book for the 9E iteration in a heart beat, because it also means that we wouldn't have the sour grapes we are having now and we most certainly wouldn't be seeing across the social media sphere of "where is my SIA for my primaris, this book is horrible garbage, wth have GW done".

 

Deathwatch KEPT SIA. Deathwatch KEPT the esoteric gear (xenophase blade, frag cannon, infernus heavy bolter, shotgun, stalker boltgun). They KEPT Kill Teams.

Saying that the new book ruined all 3 is extreme hyperbole and narrowminded. SIA became BALANCED. (Anyone who says having any number of units of storm bolters/intercessors shoot 40 shots that hit on 3s with full re-roll, wound on 2s, with re-roll 1s is "balanced" is a munchkin who doesn't care in my view). The only thing that we can say we "lost" was the powerfist with meltagun. And, to your point of the same-same kill teams, honestly, pull your head out of your ass. The abilities that used to be granted are now stratagems. Proteus Teams are as "bland" as the others for what they add "rules" wise, but that's not the point. The new Kill Teams are thematic and good. Fortis is weaker in comparison to Indomitor and Proteus, but that doesn't negate it has a place.

 

What remains just doesn't feel like DW. Sure, you can cobble together 5 outriders. Or 5 eradicators. Maybe it's even good. But did any of you pictured 5 identical, regimented models with zero wargear options as 'DW kill team' just a month ago? No? Thought so. Intercessors are a tax because they don't really synergize with DW in any way (not even option of taking frakking xenophase blade...). They are mainstay in other chapters because you can pick say bolter fusillades trait, put lieutenant with them, and they work - and funnily enough, they feel more like DW than actual DW does then, because their shooting becomes more dangerous without jumping through 57549 hoops for it. You also don't have competition of DW vets making them obsolete in all respects reminding you how terribad at balancing the book DW writers are (seriously, DW intercessors need either SIA back yesterday or big point drop to really compete).

 

 

If your perception on what "feels" like deathwatch was predicated on playing 8E broken nonsense, then I can't help you. Many of us in the Deathwatch community who play even semi competitively, let alone at the top tier, never made the super eclectic mess of models that Kill Team Cassius repreasents. We didn't build "ok you have a power fist, and you have a power sword, and you have two claws, and you have a heavy weapon, and you have a normal gun, and you have terminator armor, and you...." If you wanted to do that because you could, then all the power to you. So, to answer your question of "did I picture 5 identical regimented models with zero wargear options as a "kill team" a month ago?" : Yes, because that is A) how Primaris units were MADE, B ) that's how I played, C) that's how the lore STATED it worked, and D) it was simple. 

 

To your comment of Deathwatch Intercessors needing a points drop, SIA, or something else to make them "feel" like Deathwatch, no, they don't. They are fine as a staple unit. They have Transhuman. They have genewrought might. They have rapid fire. They have the same access to anything else stratagem wise Veterans have. They don't NEED SIA. You WANT them to have SIA because you WANT to not have to adapt to the new paradigm. Veterans have a place. Intercessors have a place. They are NOT obsolete.

 

 

But my real point is, new SM/DW book just killed my faith in the whole project. If you had an army of squatmarines, you probably didn't even notice, but consider this - in 8th edition, Intercessors were OK DW unit. Not the best, but they had SIA and kill teams and they somehow fit and felt like they belonged. Now? First, came huge, and really uncalled for (to not say dumb) decision to give all squatmarines 2W, overnight destroying half of the statline space SM had and making the whole army feel more bland and less of a choice than primaris ever did. Then DW index took away SIA, and the supplement killed kill teams. All three combined into colossal nerf to Intercessors - even though funnily enough underlying unit was technically untouched. It's just everything else became far better and they lost all support they had, along with the feel of DW unit with it. And the things people suggest to prop them up? SM stratagem and SM character. Not DW, SM ones, that would work just as well on SM, well supported Intercessors.

 

 

Now here I am going to have to call you out for just unmitigated hyperbole. 2 Wound marines have LONG been a need in 40k. The fact that old marines didn't have it made Primaris the default choice for durability. The fact that you still had a space marine dying from a single flash light wound was a farce and people know it. If you want to play the old "1 wound marine" go play sisters. Power armor? Bolter? 3+ to hit? nonsense of nonsense? check, check, check, check.

 

There is a difference now between the old marines and the new, and neither is inherently "better" than the other. They have a place. Previously, they didn't.

 

The DW index didn't take SIA away. It updated it to a new edition. Sure, they made it not a default equipment thing for Primaris, but at the same time they would have had to increase the cost of Primaris to compensate for it. There is a reason Deathwatch don't get Sternguard Veterans from the core codex and their special issue boltgun. They get a Deathwatch boltgun with SIA which is more versatile but not always 30" Ap -2.

The DW Supplement didn't kill Kill Teams, it updated them.

 

If your complaint is Deathwatch Intercessors got "nerfed" because everything around them got better, that should instead tell you that Intercessors were that good, and everything else needed raising up to their level, not the other way around.

 

 

I was halfway serious suggesting just using UM or RG rules for DW last edition. Now I am seriously considering it and skipping the supplement - at least that way I won't be constantly reminded that the expensive primaris squads I painted became virtually worthless overnight. Yes, no 5x outrider. But, funnily enough, DW veteran SM equivalent, Sternguard, kept SIA-lite and is now better at shooting with bolters than actual DW vets with SIA  These nice vanguard units DW finally gained after colossal post-Shadowspear idiocy? They are basically DW vets, only 1/3 more expensive and worse in most measurable ways. Sure, maybe there is wombo combo that will make them work in some niche situation. But in most games? Why bother, just take vets. Or play SM and actually have working synergies. Hmm.

 

 

If you want to do that, the door is over there. *Points in a direction*. If you want to leave, leave. We can do with less sour grapes here. If you want to bury your head in the sand about Deathwatch, let me get a nice big box for you to bury yourself in it.

 

 

Yes, yes, I heard you saying 'DW is more customizable'. Except, not really. See the blackshield? Iconic DW character? I used to put one in every squad. Now? You can't add them to kill team, and if you add one to veterans, you will put them into blast threshold. So most people won't bother, even if they gained nice rule. They are dead as part of the army. And funnily enough, the fact SIA is on so little guns killed the customization too - you might as well buy a tactical squad, DW sprue, arm them with bolters, slap pads on, presto, two veteran units. And this is most efficient and cheap way to build DW now. All these options, special gear? Most of them won't matter, and these few that do you can buy on bit sites. Maybe it's strong, I don't know. But it's not really what DW used to be, is it?

 

 

If you want to boogieman the blast rules, you're like all the rest of the sheep. Blast is exactly that, a boogie man that is used to scare people who don't recognize its not that terrifying.

 

Now, sure, in matched play, we can't take a blackshield everywhere, but in Crusade? Hoo boy howdy, every Core unit can take a Black Shield! Hell, we can Black Shield a DREADNOUGHT.

 

I will say, in the end, you're right.

This isn't really what Deathwatch used to be.

 

It is BETTER.

 

If you do not want to adapt, adjust, learn, evolve, and overcome, then you missed entirely the creed by which the Deathwatch function.

We are an army that can and will do anything with the tools it is given. If a Deathwatch Battle Brother were stripped out of his power armor, denied bolter and blade, and had literally just a stick and a rock, he would STILL find a way to succeed, because that is what is expected of him.

 

We have more tools and toys at our disposal now than ever. We have more character support than ever. More units than ever. More rules and synergies than ever.

 

The fact that you're hung up on the notion of Intercessors "losing" SIA, that you can't play Deathwatch the way you wanted, that the army doesn't fit your narrow definition of what it is to BE Deathwatch, then I can't help you. 

 

There is only one brotherhood, one Chapter, that has failed its Oaths to the Deathwatch. Don't join them.

Edited November 15, 2020 by Qui-Gon

[PhilB]

Love the passion, Qui-Gon.

As a new Deathwatch player, picking them up about 3 months before the index hit, I’ll admit I was pretty crushed with Intercessors loosing SIA, especially so as I’m resigned to only purchasing/using the newer Primaris kits.

However every day I read more and interesting combos on B&C and other resources. I’m inclined to agree now with the flexibility of the Deathwatch they’re in a very cool, fun & fluffy place and I’m looking forward to exploring that throughout 9th.

Just give Primaris a flying transport &/or drop pods already!

[leth]

Well said, we have more viable options now than ever before and are not the bottomt tier marines we have been since the book was released. 

 

Intercessors have a place, but they are not a requirement.  Our army is expensive so its not like we are going to be able to spam kill teams to have multiples anyway.  I struggle to have more than the 3 for troops. 

[Qui-Gon]

Love the passion, Qui-Gon.

As a new Deathwatch player, picking them up about 3 months before the index hit, I’ll admit I was pretty crushed with Intercessors loosing SIA, especially so as I’m resigned to only purchasing/using the newer Primaris kits.

However every day I read more and interesting combos on B&C and other resources. I’m inclined to agree now with the flexibility of the Deathwatch they’re in a very cool, fun & fluffy place and I’m looking forward to exploring that throughout 9th.

Just give Primaris a flying transport &/or drop pods already!

 

I have over 60 Intercessors and 20 assault intercessors. Trust me, I can bitch about losing SIA, but I'm choosing to look beyond that negative right now and at the greater picture. I still love the look of the models. Damn are they fine.

We have so many interesting choices now. This iteration is the best we've ever been.

[L30n1d4s]

DW Intercessors also have something else that no other Marines, except Ultramarines with Seal of Oath, have: the Tome of Ectoclades.

 

So, think about this for a second --

 

10 Intercessors with Auto Bolt Rifles get +1 to Hit and +1 to Wound from a Chaplain and, for one turn, buff up their shooting with full rerolls to Wound from the Tome of Ectoclades and use of the Imperial Fist Chapter Tactic (i.e. 6s with Bolt Weapons yield another hit and Ignore Light Cover).

 

Shooting twice, that gives them 60 shots, which goes up to 72 x S4 AP-1 Dmg 1 shots (thanks to the extra hits from IF Chapter Tactics).

 

With basically BS2+ from a Chaplain and rerolls 1s from a Watch Captain or nearby Dread, that is an average of 70 hits. +1 to wound from the Chaplain and reroll all to Wounds from Tome of Ectoclades means that they average around 35 wounds on a T8 Imperial Knight, while against T5-T7 they average about 52 wounds, and against T4 they average about 62 wounds.

 

With AP-1, that means about 18 wounds on an Imperial Knight, 26 wounds on a T7 3+ vehicle like the new version of the Leviathon Dread or about 17 wounds on Gravis Infantry using the new +1 to Armor Save Strat or 31 wounds on T4 3+ save MEQs. Even Terminators would take about 21 wounds (or 7 dead models).

 

While all this is the "extreme" case, costs lots of CP, and can only be used for one turn in a game, this ability to "spike" damage for a turn, all coming out of a single 10 man Troops choice, is kind of unparalleled in other Space Marine Chapters, much less other armies in the game. Even DW Veterans with Storm Bolters can't replicate this kind of "spike" in shooting damage at the critical moment, so while they are not auto take by any means, I think there is plenty of room for at least one 10 man Intercessor squad in a Deathwatch army.

Edited November 15, 2020 by L30n1d4s

[Debauchery101]

One thing to remember and understand with the new DW. We can customize OG marines and make them better than most other chapters primaris marines just with points and never need to use CP. I use between 4 to 6 CP pregame for characters and maybe 1 or 2 reserve units like a 10 man Intercessor and Eradicators squad. I basically never burn any on rerolls. I might spend 2 to 3 a game on Apothecary revives and instant chaplain chants.

The rest im burning on intercessors killing the strongest stuff with buff stacking. There's almost no way to avoid it. Theyre going to wipe out 1 to 2 expensive units every chance I get to shoot. With stalker bolter range and some scrambler units I can almost guarantee 3 turns of them not worrying about getting charged.

Unfortunately the intercessors in killteams currently suck but taking 5 auto-cessors with a fist still does well to push up behind bikers and vanguards. But I only take them to get 5 outriders

Edited November 15, 2020 by Debauchery101