Wishlist for a supplement

[Medjugorje]

 but it depends on how you build your army as well.

I dont think so. Its just a nice bonus but you will never build a list on your autowound rule. NEVER.

With +1dmg its a complete different thing.

 

 A list with a lot of attacks will improve by a maximum of 1/6. Against more wounds a 1dmg weapon turns out to be 200%. Lets be honest, do you build your list on our "Knight of Sigismund"?

 

The best tournament lists are based on dreadknoughts with aurelian shroud and a big unit of terminators / BGV with 5+++. Everything there is about input. Vanguard Veterans already have reroll wound rolls which makes autowounds even more unimportant. That BT lists stay limited to Solo BT is because we have strong stratagems and so we dont want to spend too much CP into another allies.

[Brat Igorus]

For you it will be too strong "for the rules knight of Sigismund" every 6 to touch the body to body cause a fatal damage?

[Grimoire]

Ok, I'll play along. I would dearly LOVE for some intrepid soul, likely not GW unfortunately, To release a set of Iron Crosses of Microscale Quality ( Read as not printed on decal paper) In a very dark Gray instead of Black. Say slightly darker than Mechanicus Standard Grey. Doing so would allow for All Templar Brethren to better shade and highlight more appropriately. Shadows on a "Chaos" Black model simply do not work.

[Medjugorje]

I really hope to see more special rules like the Dark Angels did. Inner Circle just get them additional rules. So I hope to get some extra special rules for combat. Maybe to see our vows get reroll 1s to hit and in assault doctrine reroll all hit rolls - this would be a perfect fit to our playstyle, would fit to other mechanics like Knights of Sigismund (because more likely to roll a 6). Or even an additional armywide rule from the start.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

As an example of just how lacklustre Knights of Sigismund is, one the new Sisters Hymns is almost the same rule but it also works against vehicles, and improves AP.

[Marshal Reinhard]

For you it will be too strong "for the rules knight of Sigismund" every 6 to touch the body to body cause a fatal damage?

you mean a rolled 6 causes a mortal wound? I'd dig it, but not sure if it's balanced or not.

[Brat Igorus]

Yes ! Sorry for my english Edited May 24, 2021 by Marshal Mattias

[Schlitzaf]

Make it work vs Vehicles and it'd be fine imho. Also just port Vigilus SwordBro rules for CVets/Bladegaurd Inner Circle style. My 2 cents.

[Medjugorje]

 

For you it will be too strong "for the rules knight of Sigismund" every 6 to touch the body to body cause a fatal damage?

you mean a rolled 6 causes a mortal wound? I'd dig it, but not sure if it's balanced or not.

 

could be if they would limit it by mortals per model in the squad. Mean 50 attacks by 5 guys just make 5 mortals max.... Would be a very nice thing. But not just in charge. 

[noobsawce]

I think we need a better way to more frequently deny the witch. As it stands we have to have Grimaldus, a chaplain with his warlord trait, or spend a command point (and we can only do that once per psychic phase). The person I play against most often plays thousand sons and 1 maybe 2 attempts to deny just isn't enough. Sisters can attempt to deny with each unit, albeit they only get 1d6 instead of, with just their base rules.

[Schlitzaf]

We have:

5+++ Mortal Wound Noping

Withseeker Bolts

ThatOtherRelic Which I always forget about

1 CP Deny

1 Grim

1 WT Trait Deny

 

That honestly solid

[redmapa]

I have to agree that we are also fine when it comes to denying the witch considering we dont have psykers, I mean thousands sons and grey knights will have so many psykers and casts that I doubt many armies will have the tools to deny most of them. Its a tough match up for sure but the 5+FNP is quite handy in my experience.

[Medjugorje]

the only thing I think would be nice is the improvement of the WL-Trait. It should be able two times or +2 on this test. But all in all we are on a good spot and have the best anti-psyker defence of all marines.

[noobsawce]

Those are fair points, I've never had much luck with making the FNP, and I forgot about the relics. I'd still like to see a return of our oaths, including Abhor the Witch. It used to be a free advance towards psykers, that may be a little overpowered now though

[Brother Sidonius]

Abhor the Witch also gave us a roll to resist Psychic Powers that affect our units which has eventually turned into our 5++ against mortal wounds. I'm hoping that Vows return and our FnP against mortal wounds becomes the bonus from Abhor the Witch 

[Brat Igorus]

If the scenobites get the same rules I would like them to add the character rules to them or that they be integrated with the chaplain so that they do not one shot

[Brother Sidonius]

Nah the Character keyword just throws away VP in competitive games but I know what you mean. They shouldn't be targettable. The way to do it is to have them function almost identically to the Dark Disciples in Codex: Chaos Space Marines. Can't be targeted if they're within 2" of a Chaplain, 1 squad can be included for each BT Chaplain and they provide +1 to Litanies recited within 2" instead of the FnP (unless they're taken with Chaplain Grimaldus and have the Relics of Helsreach)

[Medjugorje]

Nah the Character keyword just throws away VP in competitive games but I know what you mean. They shouldn't be targettable. The way to do it is to have them function almost identically to the Dark Disciples in Codex: Chaos Space Marines. Can't be targeted if they're within 2" of a Chaplain, 1 squad can be included for each BT Chaplain and they provide +1 to Litanies recited within 2" instead of the FnP (unless they're taken with Chaplain Grimaldus and have the Relics of Helsreach)

yes. They should help to recite litanies. So Grimaldus would be an autotake imo.

[Jayrich131]

 

 but it depends on how you build your army as well.

 

I dont think so. Its just a nice bonus but you will never build a list on your autowound rule. NEVER.

With +1dmg its a complete different thing.

 

 A list with a lot of attacks will improve by a maximum of 1/6. Against more wounds a 1dmg weapon turns out to be 200%. Lets be honest, do you build your list on our "Knight of Sigismund"?

 

The best tournament lists are based on dreadknoughts with aurelian shroud and a big unit of terminators / BGV with 5+++. Everything there is about input. Vanguard Veterans already have reroll wound rolls which makes autowounds even more unimportant. That BT lists stay limited to Solo BT is because we have strong stratagems and so we dont want to spend too much CP into another allies.

But this not true, I answered both of those questions in my message already. You say that 1/6 is the maximum benefit from autowounds on hits but that's absolutely wrong. That's actually the absolute minimum. Say on average you hit on a 3+ with no modifiers, half will fail to even hit, so 1/4 of the hits will automatically wound and not need to be rolled because the only successfully attacks are 3/4/5/6. Let's work out an example, I roll 10 dice, no modifiers hit on 3s, wound on 4s. 6.6 hit and result in 3.3 wounds. With the ability instead 1.7 autowound and 2.5 of the remaining 4.9 hits wound. 4.2 total wounds instead of 3.3. that's almost 30% improved wounding on just basic profiles, the harder the enemy is to wound the greater the benefit. A lot of enemies are on T5 and at S4 you need 5s to wound so on the same 10 attacks you would get only 2.2 wounds normally as opposed to 1.7 + 1.6 = 3.3 wounds. Suddenly you are getting 50% more wounds. So no, 1/6 is not the maximum but the minimum. (Disclaimer: I am in my phone so I just did the math in my head, it's not exact but it shows the logic).

 

Also, the mortal wound resistance might not be very strong at the moment but it does come in handy against certain lists or at certain times.

 

And sure, other armies might have stronger doctrines but you can't have the best of everything or you end up being imbalanced. If we had double damage etc it would be too overpowered with all the aura buffs that we can overlap on our units. The fact we can take 2 chaplains with 2 litanies each, make our elites 2+/4++/5+++/5++++ is absolutely insane, if they also did the most damage in the game then it would just be ridiculous.

 

We are obviously not a tier 1 army but for a non-foundinf chapter which has not had a book or significant update release in over a decade I think it is honestly surprising that we can still be as competitive as we are. It speaks loads of our characters and our army rules that we can perform as well as we do.

 

Personally I think Grimaldus is one of the best HQ in the game point for point. 95pts gives you a master of sanctity, which doesn't take up the official roles slot, has inbuilt exploding 6s, can bring an extra squad for cheap, etc etc. Any list that doesn't have Grimaldus is just beyond my understanding. He has only 1 flaw, he walks. If you can't find a way around that as an army that is historically known for footslogging then it's time to consider viable deep-strike options. My drop pod Grimaldus terrorised the foe. Throw out commanding oratory and you can drop him into the fray with a 100% guaranteed litany turn 1. Synchronise with some teleport Termis and you can kiss your enemies favorite unit goodbye turn 1.

[Medjugorje]

Its in the best case 1/6 in average. Most attacks with s4 which you rolled a 6 would wound anyway with claws, with Hammers and so on... Even with a normal chainsword an attack against T5 or more would wound on 5+ ( and dont forget you often have another things nearby like litany +1 to wound / Helbrecht +1S

 

If you calculate that in math you will see HOW BAAAAAD it really is. I calculated it back in 8th edition when I wrote an big E-Mail to GW.

Against most units the chapter tactic from the Space Wolves (excluding being in assault doctrine) were better then our Knights of Sigismund (inclusive -1AP). And all other melee oriented factions were better then SW. I didnt calculated the restrictions in it where we have that just if we charge and so on....

 

IT WAS THAT TERRIBLE, really. I calculated each scenario with Doctrine and without Doctrines for BA, WS, SW and BT against a different unit-types with T3, T4 and T5/ 1w and T3, T4 and T5/ 2 wounds with Power Sword, Hammer and Chainsword. It was a huge email. WS used to be the best one in most cases. Just against 1W the WS used to be not as good (but nevertheless we were closer to them then to BA in so many cases)

 

SKnights of Sigismund is really THAT bad. Btw... you can have it for 1 CP for all Space Marines.#

 

Grimaldus is always behind a MoS with Ancient Breviary. Because I want to have 5+++ or +1 A more reliable then expl. 6s for free. And dont forget that a MoS can have way better WL-Traits. 

Dont get me wrong but I played so many matches against the best players in my area ( and that amount of good players is incredible ) and I think I tested a lot.

Edited May 25, 2021 by Medjugorje

[Sword Brother Adelard]

It's bad, because it doesn't add anything. Even if every roll went perfectly, and you rolled all 6s, and they failed all their saves, the maximum damage is still the same. Whereas in the same circumstances White Scars get extra damage, and other chapters get extra attacks. That all get MORE. We got a slight reliability increase, and it doesn't even apply when it would be most useful, against vehicles.

Yes, it's better than nothing. But you can't build around it.

[Medjugorje]

I think thats not the problem. Look, if we had the rule that we dont have to roll anyway and each damage count as mortal wounds It would be insane OP. Without any extra damage. So its important to make our attacks much much much more reliable - like reroll all hits in melee + autowounds.

 

In the phase from 5th to 6th edition a lot of people thought that aac would be better now (from reroll all hits to +1 extra attack in charge) - but it was a desaster. Reroll all hits back in 5th edition was brokes as heck.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I don't know what the answer is. I just know that KoS does not compete with what other chapters have, they all get a bonus on top of what they would get normally, be it more attacks, hits, AP, damage whatever.

We have a slightly better chance of making wounds we may have made anyway.

[Brother Sidonius]

I assume it's not a very popular idea and that most people would prefer a combat buff as our super doctrine, but when I think of a rule called 'Knights of Sigismund' I think of knights who are exceptional swordsmanship and duelists. And to represent that on the table top, I'd give our Characters re-roll hits against enemy Characters and all of our Core and Character units Skillful Parry, which is a -1 to hit in combat. Doing the maths, it lets our boys stand a chance against the other melee Chapters, not by being able to kill them faster than they can kill us, but by being hard to hit. Dunno how everyone else feels about it but I like it :) 

[Medjugorje]

would like it but just as an addition. Knights used to be superior in input mainly because of their superior armor and because of their skill to avoid and to deal damage - means they know how to strike a killing blow.

 

 

our stratagem reposte could be an armywide additional rule