Wishlist for a supplement

[Brat Igorus]

I assume it's not a very popular idea and that most people would prefer a combat buff as our super doctrine, but when I think of a rule called 'Knights of Sigismund' I think of knights who are exceptional swordsmanship and duelists. And to represent that on the table top, I'd give our Characters re-roll hits against enemy Characters and all of our Core and Character units Skillful Parry, which is a -1 to hit in combat. Doing the maths, it lets our boys stand a chance against the other melee Chapters, not by being able to kill them faster than they can kill us, but by being hard to hit. Dunno how everyone else feels about it but I like it

It's good idea but this rules is better for the doctrine than " Sigismund's knight"?

[Jayrich131]

But it's not Grimaldus OR MoS... It's both Grimaldus and MoS. 4 litanies, 2 Templar ones and 2 regular ones. We are the Black Templars, should be making the absolute most of auras.

 

Also, as I said before it's not 1/6. I worked through the math unmodified. You can't take into account only negative modifiers because the opposite is also true, sure it becomes less useful with wound re-rolls from LC etc. BUT on the flipside you get the benefit of being able to wound almost anything with even your weakest units. Your neophyte can swing at Mortarion or a Carnifex and 1/6 attacks will wound. You know how many attacks you would need to wound without KOS? A lot more than 6 haha. The only weakness, as someone mentioned before is that it excludes vehicles. It should include vehicles and then it would be an amazing ability. So yeah, it gives great flexibility in that any of your units has a chance to cause damage even if they are versing a much stronger foe, which I feel is very fluffy for our heroic brethren.

 

Trust me, throw Grimaldus, Helbrecht and 10 VV in a terrax drill and then have a terminator chaplain and 10 assault termis in the teleportation ready to rock and roll. Bomb them into the enemies flank with a forced 5+++ from oratory, just make sure they are not able to be eliminated in the next round by enemy fire or being surrounded and you will clear a huge chunk of the enemies elites and have an incredibly strong force deep in the enemy lines with 4 litanies turn 2. You just need to keep them in engagement range or out of LoS/charge range of the majority of the enemy so they don't get picked off in the enemies turn. They will absorb so much of the enemies focus that you basically get to control the whole board by turn 3.

[Medjugorje]

The problem is that our weakest units are.....  weak.

 

Too weak to play them. All that really count is Vanguards and Terminators and maybe Bladeguards. If you play another units just to gain more from our superdoctrine then your list is getting worse then before.

 

Thats why we just take 3x5 Crusader squads in competitve lists at the moment. 

And even with KoS they are not that better. Just a tiny bit.

Edited May 27, 2021 by Medjugorje

[Brat Igorus]

The problem is that our weakest units are.....  weak.

 

Too weak to play them. All that really count is Vanguards and Terminators and maybe Bladeguards. If you play another units just to gain more from our superdoctrine then your list is getting worse then before.

 

Thats why we just take 3x5 Crusader squads in competitve lists at the moment. 

And even with KoS they are not that better. Just a tiny bit.

What is KOS?

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Knights of Sigismund.

[Hidenheart]

 

The problem is that our weakest units are.....  weak.

 

Too weak to play them. All that really count is Vanguards and Terminators and maybe Bladeguards. If you play another units just to gain more from our superdoctrine then your list is getting worse then before.

 

Thats why we just take 3x5 Crusader squads in competitve lists at the moment. 

And even with KoS they are not that better. Just a tiny bit.

What is KOS?

 

Knights of Sigismund.

[Jayrich131]

Should consider running fires of devotion on one of the chaplains and running assault intercessors instead of crusaders. On the charge you'll have 5 attacks each 2+1+1+1 means every model gets an autowound pretty much. They don't cost much more than crusaders and they can actually perform if they need to. Crusaders are cheap but they are literally just an ornament base 1 attack S4, -1 AP... Even if you make it into melee most shooting units will swing back harder than the crusaders swing haha

[Shamansky]

Should consider running fires of devotion on one of the chaplains and running assault intercessors instead of crusaders. On the charge you'll have 5 attacks each 2+1+1+1 means every model gets an autowound pretty much. They don't cost much more than crusaders and they can actually perform if they need to. Crusaders are cheap but they are literally just an ornament base 1 attack S4, -1 AP... Even if you make it into melee most shooting units will swing back harder than the crusaders swing haha

You should also consider that with every intercassor lost you'll lose all those 5 attacks.

[Medjugorje]

Crusadersquads are the best troop choice by far. 

 

Wishlist for the supplement: let the pointcost how they are (from a game perspective) - change the pointcost for the Neos to 10 and the normal marines to 18(from a lore and fungame perspective)

 

 

What I recogniced last time is that a special thing for chaplains is to prevent from rerollls. That would be awesome if we get THIS as stratagem for our zelous crusaders. Would fit and very strong.

[Jayrich131]

 

Should consider running fires of devotion on one of the chaplains and running assault intercessors instead of crusaders. On the charge you'll have 5 attacks each 2+1+1+1 means every model gets an autowound pretty much. They don't cost much more than crusaders and they can actually perform if they need to. Crusaders are cheap but they are literally just an ornament base 1 attack S4, -1 AP... Even if you make it into melee most shooting units will swing back harder than the crusaders swing haha

 

You should also consider that with every intercassor lost you'll lose all those 5 attacks.

I mean... Obviously? With any model lost you lose all their attacks. I don't really see the point you are making.

 

I've watched Implausible Nature play multiple intercessor squads in most their games, haven't seen them run many crusader squads. As far as I know IN are the most competitive Templar players right now. So, I lean towards following their example.

 

Either way, it's just something to consider. We can sit here and demand double damage doctrine or any of these various other rules people have requested, most of which would clearly break the game, or we can work with what we have and make it as competitive as it can be. Crusaders are a fine option to just make a cheap detachment troop choice, intercessors are also a fine option if you want a troop choice that has some usability in the game. It's preference really.

 

All I want from the new supplement, if it comes, is selectable vows of some kind, re-worked crusader squad and sword brethren back in some shape or form as a unit instead of this sergeant situation.

 

Anything else would be nice and I hope everyone gets what they are wanting out of it but just these 3 things would make me happy

[Medjugorje]

 

 

Should consider running fires of devotion on one of the chaplains and running assault intercessors instead of crusaders. On the charge you'll have 5 attacks each 2+1+1+1 means every model gets an autowound pretty much. They don't cost much more than crusaders and they can actually perform if they need to. Crusaders are cheap but they are literally just an ornament base 1 attack S4, -1 AP... Even if you make it into melee most shooting units will swing back harder than the crusaders swing haha

You should also consider that with every intercassor lost you'll lose all those 5 attacks.

I mean... Obviously? With any model lost you lose all their attacks. I don't really see the point you are making.

 

I've watched Implausible Nature play multiple intercessor squads in most their games, haven't seen them run many crusader squads. As far as I know IN are the most competitive Templar players right now. So, I lean towards following their example.

 

 

IN are great and they do so much for our community, which I am so happy about. They are our "Eternal Crusader" where we have our bulwark against the dark, our monastary where we are with our brothers and we gain knowledge to burn the enemy.

But there are many other great players out there. 

 

Worldwide the american players and all Youtubers are well known while other great players are not rec ognized a tiny bit. All people know Siegler, Bro Hammer and so on - dont forgt that Poland and Germany are the record holders in ETC ( and I am really sure that you cant name even one of them^^)

I have won tournaments in 5th, 6th and 8th edition (even in 7th edition but this edition does not count because its heresy). I play against some of the best players in germany ( a lot of them had won the ETC over the last 15 years). For example - Greek Hammers Semi-WTC is won by the german team. I played against Fritz "LTT" ( a member of that Greekhammer team) a lot of games ( he is one of my best "sparring partners) - the last 3 games I had won. I played a lot of games against Stefan Härle who was a long time Nr.1 in the ITC ranking germany (he is a member of our gaming club). Back in 6th edition we had an ELO-ranking for our tournament-community - I used to be rank 10 for all german speaking  countries. I think  it doesnt sound arrogant when I say I really know what I am talking about. I played 2 tournaments in 9th edition with 8 games and lost 2 games (eacht time against the later winner (and one of it because we read the rule wrong - so very likely I had won the whole tournament)).

 

And btw All BT lists with succeeded last time had 3x5 crusadersquads in it.

The input for 3 crusadersquads is the same then for 3 intercessors while one unit cost 225 and the other 285. Thats 60 points ( an additional Trike with MM + 5 points). Transhuman does not count that much because most times you will use it for more important squads then your Battallion tax.

Edited May 27, 2021 by Medjugorje

[MarshalMittermeier]

 

 

 

Should consider running fires of devotion on one of the chaplains and running assault intercessors instead of crusaders. On the charge you'll have 5 attacks each 2+1+1+1 means every model gets an autowound pretty much. They don't cost much more than crusaders and they can actually perform if they need to. Crusaders are cheap but they are literally just an ornament base 1 attack S4, -1 AP... Even if you make it into melee most shooting units will swing back harder than the crusaders swing haha

You should also consider that with every intercassor lost you'll lose all those 5 attacks.

I mean... Obviously? With any model lost you lose all their attacks. I don't really see the point you are making.

 

I've watched Implausible Nature play multiple intercessor squads in most their games, haven't seen them run many crusader squads. As far as I know IN are the most competitive Templar players right now. So, I lean towards following their example.

 

 

IN are great and they do so much for our community, which I am so happy about. They are our "Eternal Crusader" where we have our bulwark against the dark, our monastary where we are with our brothers and we gain knowledge to burn the enemy.

But there are many other great players out there. 

 

Worldwide the american players and all Youtubers are well known while other great players are not rec ognized a tiny bit. All people know Siegler, Bro Hammer and so on - dont forgt that Poland and Germany are the record holders in ETC ( and I am really sure that you cant name even one of them^^)

I have won tournaments in 5th, 6th and 8th edition (even in 7th edition but this edition does not count because its heresy). I play against some of the best players in germany ( a lot of them had won the ETC over the last 15 years). For example - Greek Hammers Semi-WTC is won by the german team. I played against Fritz "LTT" ( a member of that Greekhammer team) a lot of games ( he is one of my best "sparring partners) - the last 3 games I had won. I played a lot of games against Stefan Härle who was a long time Nr.1 in the ITC ranking germany (he is a member of our gaming club). Back in 6th edition we had an ELO-ranking for our tournament-community - I used to be rank 10 for all german speaking  countries. I think  it doesnt sound arrogant when I say I really know what I am talking about. I played 2 tournaments in 9th edition with 8 games and lost 2 games (eacht time against the later winner (and one of it because we read the rule wrong - so very likely I had won the whole tournament)).

 

And btw All BT lists with succeeded last time had 3x5 crusadersquads in it.

The input for 3 crusadersquads is the same then for 3 intercessors while one unit cost 225 and the other 285. Thats 60 points ( an additional Trike with MM + 5 points). Transhuman does not count that much because most times you will use it for more important squads then your Battallion tax.

 

transhuman counts.

 

but Troops in general are just what you described- a battalion tax, as well as scoring units.

 

IMHO spending 250-350 points (infiltrators can be good too) on some utility objective holders + tax models is a) ok, b) will totally NOT be what makes or breaks your armylist. seriously, people just arent asking the right questions.

 

even spending 300 pts for 3x5 shooty intercessors, the worst troop for BT, still wont be what makes or breaks your list-they are still just a tax. your OTHER options, the vanvets, the termies, the bladeguard, the shooting support, THATS what will make or break the list.

[Brother Sidonius]

You could make an interesting rule combining the Parry and a Risposte where if you successfully Parry the attack you get deal a mortal wound as a Riposte. For example:

"Each time you fail a saving throw against a melee attack by exactly 1, the saving throw is treated as a success (an unmodified 1 is still a failed save) and the attacking unit suffers 1 mortal wound after it has finished fighting".

 

Edit: I'm suddenly getting the urge to go play Dark Souls...

Edited May 28, 2021 by Brother Sidonius

[Jayrich131]

You could make an interesting rule combining the Parry and a Risposte where if you successfully Parry the attack you get deal a mortal wound as a Riposte. For example:

"Each time you fail a saving throw against a melee attack by exactly 1, the saving throw is treated as a success (an unmodified 1 is still a failed save) and the attacking unit suffers 1 mortal wound after it has finished fighting".

 

Edit: I'm suddenly getting the urge to go play Dark Souls...

Saving throw idea could be cool and relatively easy to balance in comparison to some suggestions. Here is my idea: replace super doctrine with Vows, similar to the following. Vows to be decided before deployment.

 

Accept Any Challenge, No Matter The Odds

When targeted by melee attacks, any time the opponent rolls a 1 to hit, your unit may make 1 additional attack when they swing back. Fairly useful and also not overpowered. You still have to hit and wound, if squad is wiped then no opportunity to swing back. Very fluffy and fun. Also emphasises our melee and strong nerve.

 

Abhor the Witch, Destroy the Witch

If a Black Templars Unit successfully denies the witch when an opponent uses a psyk ability, deal D3 mortal wounds to the model that used the ability. Not sure if that's balanced as I would need to see it in use. Could combo well with our extra deny the witch tests and modifiers but would obviously be very situational. Hence why it's good as a pre-game selection.

 

Suffer not the Unclean to Live

When any opponent would recover wounds due to a stratagem or ability, or return to life after being destroyed, roll 1D6, on a 6 (maybe 5+, would need play testing) that healing or reviving does not occur. Great counter to certain armies/lists without being broken be ause it still relies on luck and sacrifices a more combat useful doctrine. Matches the title and the idea of not letting filthy Xenos revive by pricing them completely.

 

Uphold the Honour of the Emperor

Before the battle begins designate 1 BT IC and one elite squad(maybe limit to veteran/bladeguard/sword brethren or whatever) to be linked by fate. The designated unit will gain the bodyguard keyword as long as they are within 3" of the selected character and may take wounds in their place. Cool twist that is sort of defensive but also opens up offensive plays. Sounds like a Templar thing to sacrifice oneself for the good of the chapter. Needs to be balanced so would have to be limited to 1 squad/character but could be handy against assassination lists.

 

What do you guys think? I just came up with these in the last 2m but sound cool to me. Or are they too OP

[Brother Sidonius]

Obviously needs some balancing but those Vow ideas are all fun and original. I like them! Personally I want Vows with a bonus and restriction so they augment our play style rather than granting a flat bonus (like in 4th ed) but if GW did something like your idea I'd be cheering

[Brat Igorus]

I don't know if this has been said but:

 

I would really like him to make a bearer of the holy cross as in the Templars of old

 

what do you thinks brother?

[Medjugorje]

So. After its confirmed by GW that we getting something and very likely oriented on the 4th edition codex.

So what do you remeber on old rules so far?What was specific for Templars ( some rules used to be normal for each marines like infiltrating veterans or tank hunter terminators... )

And how it could possible converted into 9th edition.

 

- Emperors champion + 4 vows

*better hit

*better wound

*something against psykers

*protection

 

- charging after get shot

 

- shoot at the closest enemy

 

- crusader squad

 

- holy orb

 

- sword brethren

 

- fearless in close combat

Edited July 18, 2021 by Medjugorje

[Brother Carpenter]

No or cap on devs and whirwinds.

But i think that would be a bit too much in the current system.

 

Yessss the Holy Orb of Antioch muahhahaha aka the holy hand grenade.

Thou shals pull the pin and count to three, not two and certainly not five. After this count thou shals throw the holy handgrenade...

 

Laughs guaranteed

Edited July 25, 2021 by Brother Carpenter

[Bjorn Firewalker]

Yessss the Holy Orb of Antioch muahhahaha aka the holy hand grenade.

Thou shals pull the pin and count to three, not two and certainly not five. After this count thou shals throw the holy handgrenade...

It will help if there's a holy hand grenade LAUNCHER, so the Emperor's enemies will not escape His Immortal Majesty's justice by fleeing further than a human or Astartes arm can throw a grenade. Maybe incorporate it into a Chaplain's crozius, creating a combination weapon resembling the historical gun-axe?

Edited July 25, 2021 by Bjorn Firewalker

[BayOkuz]

 

 

 

Should consider running fires of devotion on one of the chaplains and running assault intercessors instead of crusaders. On the charge you'll have 5 attacks each 2+1+1+1 means every model gets an autowound pretty much. They don't cost much more than crusaders and they can actually perform if they need to. Crusaders are cheap but they are literally just an ornament base 1 attack S4, -1 AP... Even if you make it into melee most shooting units will swing back harder than the crusaders swing haha

You should also consider that with every intercassor lost you'll lose all those 5 attacks.

I mean... Obviously? With any model lost you lose all their attacks. I don't really see the point you are making.

 

I've watched Implausible Nature play multiple intercessor squads in most their games, haven't seen them run many crusader squads. As far as I know IN are the most competitive Templar players right now. So, I lean towards following their example.

 

 

IN are great and they do so much for our community, which I am so happy about. They are our "Eternal Crusader" where we have our bulwark against the dark, our monastary where we are with our brothers and we gain knowledge to burn the enemy.

But there are many other great players out there. 

 

Worldwide the american players and all Youtubers are well known while other great players are not rec ognized a tiny bit. All people know Siegler, Bro Hammer and so on - dont forgt that Poland and Germany are the record holders in ETC ( and I am really sure that you cant name even one of them^^)

I have won tournaments in 5th, 6th and 8th edition (even in 7th edition but this edition does not count because its heresy). I play against some of the best players in germany ( a lot of them had won the ETC over the last 15 years). For example - Greek Hammers Semi-WTC is won by the german team. I played against Fritz "LTT" ( a member of that Greekhammer team) a lot of games ( he is one of my best "sparring partners) - the last 3 games I had won. I played a lot of games against Stefan Härle who was a long time Nr.1 in the ITC ranking germany (he is a member of our gaming club). Back in 6th edition we had an ELO-ranking for our tournament-community - I used to be rank 10 for all german speaking  countries. I think  it doesnt sound arrogant when I say I really know what I am talking about. I played 2 tournaments in 9th edition with 8 games and lost 2 games (eacht time against the later winner (and one of it because we read the rule wrong - so very likely I had won the whole tournament)).

 

And btw All BT lists with succeeded last time had 3x5 crusadersquads in it.

The input for 3 crusadersquads is the same then for 3 intercessors while one unit cost 225 and the other 285. Thats 60 points ( an additional Trike with MM + 5 points). Transhuman does not count that much because most times you will use it for more important squads then your Battallion tax.

 

 

Hey, did you played in this Greekhammer's TTS WTC Tournament?

 

I was with the Turkish Team "Crescents", maybe we did even made some game with you not sure. 

 

As for the Crusaders, they are the most competitive troop choice for templars I agree. Maybe less attack but definitaley worth to their points cost.

[Marshal Laeroth]

 

 

Should consider running fires of devotion on one of the chaplains and running assault intercessors instead of crusaders. On the charge you'll have 5 attacks each 2+1+1+1 means every model gets an autowound pretty much. They don't cost much more than crusaders and they can actually perform if they need to. Crusaders are cheap but they are literally just an ornament base 1 attack S4, -1 AP... Even if you make it into melee most shooting units will swing back harder than the crusaders swing haha

 

You should also consider that with every intercassor lost you'll lose all those 5 attacks.

I mean... Obviously? With any model lost you lose all their attacks. I don't really see the point you are making.

 

I've watched Implausible Nature play multiple intercessor squads in most their games, haven't seen them run many crusader squads. As far as I know IN are the most competitive Templar players right now. So, I lean towards following their example.

We appreciate the support, truly! Alex and I are tuned to competitive play, though I am the tournament goer. With that being said, we do make mistakes and are not infallible. While I have won many tournaments over the years, so have a number of other players. We might be the household name for the BT community, but there are great BT players out there.

[Trignama]

I'd like to offer my opinion here. 

Our troops are amazing, literally the whole breadth of them are good choices, with the exception of adding neophytes to crusader squads. 

I play 40k pretty much every weekend, and nearly all of my games, my assault intercessors perform very well. I typically take 2x5 man of them (3rd troop is usually 5 infiltrators + helix gauntlet), and their goal is one of 2 things. 

Go assault enemy units off their obj's, and use your obsec to make them my objs.

Go jump into combat with units that made it up the board faster than you. 

It's very very easy to do a 1 / 2 sort of punch with our set of rules and litanies, with the 2 coming from a stacked up troop unit. 

Say you have 10 VV's w/JP's in your list, well, that unit catches all your buffs 1st turn and shoot up the table and get themselves all the attention. 

Turn 2, you could buff 10 intercessors with pretty much everything you just gave the VV and then go send them after something with Grimaldus in tow, and I PROMISE you, that squad will wreck damn near anything it touches, be them troops or not. 

Either way, I'm a huge fan of troop units and they have always served me very well. 

As far as what I'd like to see in the supplement, it would be a REASON to take our Crusader Squads over any of the already amazing troop choices we currently have, and same for the Sword Brethren. The latter more than likely being elites and sitting in an even heavier contested slot. 

Gravis Sword Brethren with relic blades and combi bolters?

Crusader Squads get old school righteous zeal again to make adding neophytes attractive?

Whatever our supplement may be, I just hope we see that 4th edition character of the army come back with it.....

[Trignama]

So. After its confirmed by GW that we getting something and very likely oriented on the 4th edition codex.

So what do you remeber on old rules so far?What was specific for Templars ( some rules used to be normal for each marines like infiltrating veterans or tank hunter terminators... )

And how it could possible converted into 9th edition.

 

- Emperors champion + 4 vows

*better hit

*better wound

*something against psykers

*protection

 

- charging after get shot

 

- shoot at the closest enemy

 

- crusader squad

 

- holy orb

 

- sword brethren

 

- fearless in close combat

Crusader Seals, the Land Raider Crusader (Remember this released with our 4th ed codex and no other chapter had access to it at the time), our sword brethren could gain veteran abilities like infiltrate or furious charge, blessed hull (this was HUUUUGE against lance back in the day and made our LR's some of the best in the game)....

 

That codex was amazing when it dropped, and a far cry from anything on the table that was being built out of the standard marine dex.... I mean we couldn't take psykers OR devastator squads lol.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Other chapters could use the Crusader, which was released in third. But they couldn't take more than one, whereas we could take multiple.

[Trignama]

Other chapters could use the Crusader, which was released in third. But they couldn't take more than one, whereas we could take multiple.

Hmm maybe my memory is off, but I was pretty sure we were the only ones with it and it released with the 4th edition codex....