Strategy & Tactics: The counter - attack / charge - breaker

[Shaezus]

After the NCO event and the discussion that arose on Moritcon's thread, this seems worthy of its own thread.

 

At the moment BA seem to be one of the few factions in the game that can't deliver a turn 1 charge. Many factions can reliably put multiple units in melee on turn 1, with space wolves, white scars, raven guard and sisters of battle standing out at the NCO for this.

 

Barring some major changes in the upcoming supplement, it's likely that other factions will be better at this than we are. We simply don't have the units and tools that others do. But it seems we might stand out as a counter - attack army:

 

Sanguinor

 

pros: He can drop in and force the opponent into a difficult decision: attack the original target and risk being hurt by the sanguinor, or kill the sanguinor and be open to "only in?death does duty end" and then a counter - attack

 

If he survives, his ability to fall back and charge will be a nuisance for aggressive armies; their points are mostly in the offensive units, leaving smaller squads to hold objectives. Sanguinor has real potential to flip objectives.

 

At worst, he forces your opponent to consider him and maybe adjust his plans

 

cons:

 

at the same points as 5 san guard with swords, he's not the durable beat stick that other similar priced characters can be

 

even if you give him speed of the primarch, he won't fight first. You might have to spend 2CP just to get a round of melee out of him

 

 

Judiciar:

 

pros:

 

"fight last" is very strong

 

can affect multiple units simultaneously

 

option to use "unbridled ardour" to catch opponents unawares and affect multiple units

 

forces the opponent to adjust his charge positioning

 

cons:

 

very short range of effect

 

tricky to position

 

easy for the opponent to avoid

 

 

 

Whirlwind

 

pros:

 

suppressing fire only 1 CP

 

Superb for ruining a charge before it even happens

 

Its effect lasts a whole turn and also removes overwatch

 

 

cons:

 

 

won't have any effect on a turn 1 charge unless you go first

 

 

 

What are your thoughts and experiences with these units?

 

Any other ideas on how BA can beat aggressive turn 1 lists?

Edited November 3, 2020 by Shaezus

[Indefragable]

Mind elaborating on what you mean in your opening statement?

 

What abilities do the other factions you mention have that makes them so good at getting the charge?

 

Also, I think some more specificity around our inability to get “the charge” would be helpful. I mean....Incursors and Scouts = Turn 1 Charge right there, that is unlikely what you meant. 

[Morticon]

Probably means comparatively from where we were before, as well as in relation to two of our very similar swift-marine chapters like Raven Guard and White Scars and even Wolves with their T-wolf Cavalry. 

 

Before we had Wings of Fire and Forlorn Fury and wings, which allowed us to get into the lines of the enemy - that's no longer an option.
 

Other first turn assaults would be things like Stormboys supported by Da Jump Orks or a wave of  Genestealers 

[Shaezus]

Advance and charge is surprisingly common and available to dedicated melee units. So by "first turn charge" I mean a dedicated strategy where the whole game plan revolves around this or at least heavily relies on it.

 

The key thing is, it depends on going first. Which is why the counter - attack strategy is well worth looking at.

[Majkhel]

Sorry for spoiling this wonderfully on-point and crunch-related thread with fluff, but I have to say it's awesomely thematic for BA to be the ones that endure and counter-strike based on our pre-Sanguinius Legion's history.

Having said that, I'm certain we will be getting at the very least Forlorn Fury with our Supplement. If we get our SoS equivalent as well, it would massively increase our survivability in a counter-punch games. We are not that bad at the moment and I'd say we can only get better. 

What would you say for some relatively cheap Flyers for charge-blocking?

[Karhedron]

There seem to be 2 distinct threats, either units that can pull off T1 Deep Strikes or units that can Advance and Charge with fast units. I normally run infantry heavy (or even infantry-only) lists so like for many, starting off in Transports for protection won't be an option as most of our killy units have Jump Packs instead.

 

For units that arrive from Deep Strike, Infiltrators are a viable option. They are expensive for what they do but 2 squads widely spread out will block off big chunks of board. Now that Firstborn are 2W across the board, I am toying with the idea of ditching my Bolt Rifle Intercessors which would create some room for Infiltrators although I would need to find some points from elsewhere.

 

For armies that can bring a number of Advance + Charge units, I think they need to be approached differently. TWC hit very hard but only have a 10" move. Bikes are faster and but don't hit quite as hard. I haven't read through all the new missions in detail but is the default starting position of 24" apart still a thing? Maybe a skirmish screen of Infiltrators/Incursors could do the trick as long as they are out of consolidation range of the rest of our lines. Yes they will get crushed but if it leaves your enemy's elite units exposed to shooting and/or counter charges, it might be a worthwhile exchange. A 5-man Phobos unit can create a screen 15" long at a push so 2 of them can block off a lot of charge corridors.

 

The last option is one I am loath to suggest but always an option. Play conservatively on T1 and don't deploy all the way forward in your deployment zone. Since we are unlikely to be making nay T1 charges ourselves, this isn't such a big deal. It will normally be clear from your opponents' lists if they are planning something like this.

[Shaezus]

@Karhedron

 

Infiltrators are superb. They're worth their points even if they just sit on an objective the whole game. With the new helix gauntlet they can hold out longer and frustrate an opponent who wastes heavy fire on them. I dropped them for a recent RTT and paid the price; my opponent was chaos daemons with bloodletter bomb and the mission was "sweep and clear", the one where each player has one objective in their DZ. 3 secondary points each turn for holding your own, 5 if you hold both. I accidentally gave him the smallest of gaps to DS into and he took it. Wouldn't have happened with infiltrators.

 

That mission is the one with the smallest "no man's land" in deployment. A circle in the centre of 9" radius. At the two closest points the players zones are only 12" apart. This was the same mission I played against the SW player last weekend and he put his TWC at these closest points with outriders next to them.

 

The Phobos screen, like you mentioned, did allow me to delete a unit of TWC with shooting but it also cost me my infiltrators, which in hindsight would have been better used shutting out his turn 2 deep strike with assault terminators.

 

It's a very fine balance to play. I assume I'm going second and deploy to minimise turn 1 losses, but also be in position to flip midfield objectives. This is bound to leave some of my units vulnerable to the turn 1 assault

 

Hugging the back line is indeed a self - loathing thing to do and it makes it more difficult to score primaries. I guess this is where terrain and specific synergies in deployment come in.

[Indefragable]

Disclaimer: I have only played a single game of 9th so far myself.

 

That being said, based theoryhammer I did before and how my game played out, I have confidence in what I am about to say.

 

2 Factors override all else:

 

1. Win conditions

2. Adaptability

 

Win Conditions 

“The enemy’s gate is down.” 
-Ender Wiggin, Ender’s Game
 

What you choose for secondaries determines the game. That might seem obvious, but in 7th and 8th you could almost always win by tabling an opponent. For a bloodthirsty faction like us, that meant when in doubt we could always just try to kill as much stuff as possible. With the way secondaries work now in 9th you have a more limited means of achieving victory, but you get to choose your path to victory, a dream come true for those who recall the fickleness of Maelstrom cards. What this means is that all your efforts should be spent achieving those win conditions, and anything else is secondary. From list building to Deployment to opening salvoes, to T5 desperate gambles, you need to put yourself into position to achieve your win conditions, whatever you choose them to be.

 

Likewise, as Sun Tzu said “all that is good for my enemy is bad for me” and so anything you are doing that does not directly help you achieve your win conditions should be spent enemy from achieving his. This could mean hiding a character if he has Assassinate, or kiting a scary unit if he is out to destroy something. 
 

Adaptability
There are two seemingly divergent points here, but they ultimately mean the same thing.

Foremost what you pick for Secondaries should adapt to battlefield conditions, You built your army to get assassinate, but your opponent somehow found a way to only bring a single HQ. Don’t die on that hill and switch it up to give yourself a better chance. 
 

Secondly, how you go about achieving your win should be fluid. Improvise, Adapt, Overcome. Your plan was to hold that middle OBJ with your Bladeguard, but he’s pushing a scary threat down your flank? Perhaps it’s time to put a different unit on that OBJ. Etc... Again, it might seem obvious, but as one of my favorite sports coaches likes to say: “excellence is the glorious execution of the basics.”

 

This might be a bit airy or lofty and not as in-the-weeds as the OP is looking for, but in my experience often we get caught up thinking  in terms of formulas and “products” rather than in terms of concepts and solutions. Especially since we are in an interim period, i hunk now is better than ever to focus on core mechanics and simplicity over fancy tricks. 

[Shaezus]

Definitely agree that we are in an interim period

 

Try to consider this as an initial thrashing out of ideas. Nothing is too lofty or too... "in the weeds" - that's a new one for me - because we are all here to help each other

 

Orks. Nids. Eldar. Chaos daemons. Chaos Marines. sisters of battle. GSC. Space Wolves. White Scars. Raven guard.

 

All of them have successful competitive setups capable of ramming several hundred points worth of brutal melee up in your grille on turn 1. Even necrons with their phase jump ability (not sure what it's called but it's the necron equiv of Wings of Fire) can ruin your day with a full squad of immortals in your face on turn 1.

 

Personally now's a good time for me to look at ways to counter these. Might as well share the journey. All philosophies and fancy tricks are welcome

Edited November 4, 2020 by Shaezus

[Indefragable]

Definitely agree that we are in an interim period

 

Try to consider this as an initial thrashing out of ideas. Nothing is too lofty or too... "in the weeds" - that's a new one for me - because we are all here to help each other

 

Orks. Nids. Eldar. Chaos daemons. Chaos Marines. sisters of battle. GSC. Space Wolves. White Scars. Raven guard.

 

All of them have successful competitive setups capable of ramming several hundred points worth of brutal melee up in your grille on turn 1. Even necrons with their phase jump ability (not sure what it's called but it's the necron equiv of Wings of Fire) can ruin your day with a full squad of immortals in your face on turn 1.

 

Personally now's a good time for me to look at ways to counter these. Might as well share the journey. All philosophies and fancy tricks are welcome

 

By "in the weeds" I meant my suggestion is not "take Intercessors with Auto bolt rifles" or anything so specific, rather an overall mindset. 

 

We traditionally are the ones to get up in the enemy's face early and often, so it can feel weird to have the tables turned. But that's a huge advantage, since we know exactly what goes right and what goes wrong in an aggressive play style. Use that to your advantage. i.e. try to set things up so an enemy has to make 10-12" charges, just enough that they will attempt it, but there's a good chance they either fail or have to burn CP to make it work. I almost always measure melee threat ranges with enemy units, i.e. Movement + 12" to have an idea where to position my own guys into baiting the enemy. 

[Shaezus]

For sure, that's a much safer option than deploying everything aggressively and hoping for turn 1

 

Against aggro lists the advance + charge needs to be factored in. As with the +2 to charge from litanies and other similar faction

 

Then there's the consolidate bonus to consider

 

With the boards being smaller these days, all of this means even hugging the back line won't always help

[Shaezus]

A nice lesson from last weekend...the DA player had about a dozen terminator models. All with the native transhuman ability. Against SW They deployed centrally like a magnet for the TWC.

 

SW got first turn and threw the TWC at the terminator blob. Only two terminators were killed....

 

There's a place for a solid back line tank unit, even with BA. Looking at heavy intercessors or termies backed up by an apothecary

[Majkhel]

3W Gravis with Transhuman can definitely hold for a bit. I was thinking a 10-man squad, potentially combat-squadding if going first. But how about a 5-man Bladeguard in that role with their shields? Also 3W each.

About DA termies - central-forward placement is the best way of ensuring they see action as they are relatively slow. SW player definitely took the bait.

[smileyjim]

I had a 4man squad of blade guard tank 3 executioners and loose only 1 model. He rolled poorly and I had good saves but still, shocking that amount of fire-power for a turn let's the rest of your army run amok

[Shaezus]

3W Gravis with Transhuman can definitely hold for a bit. I was thinking a 10-man squad, potentially combat-squadding if going first. But how about a 5-man Bladeguard in that role with their shields? Also 3W each.

About DA termies - central-forward placement is the best way of ensuring they see action as they are relatively slow. SW player definitely took the bait.

He totally went for the bait. Did exactly what DA wanted

 

Bladeguard as backfield, that's worth some thought. The range, AP and damage of executor rifles and heavy bolters on 10 heavy intercessors is something else though

[Shaezus]

I keep being drawn back to the sanguinor. Against aggressive armies he might actually be the best thing out there for clearing backfield objectives on turn 1.

 

Heroically intervene into the rear of an enemy unit. Survive. Fall back in a forwards direction.

 

As situational as anything else but...

[Hintzy]

I keep being drawn back to the sanguinor. Against aggressive armies he might actually be the best thing out there for clearing backfield objectives on turn 1.

 

Heroically intervene into the rear of an enemy unit. Survive. Fall back in a forwards direction.

 

As situational as anything else but...

Can he Heroically Intervene from space on turn one or does that count as arriving from reserves?

 

Edit: "In Grand Tournament 2020 missions, Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement units can never arrive on the battlefield in the first battle round." From the GT Pack.

 

I think that answers the question as no. If it said something like "reinforcement units cannot be "deployed" or "setup during the reinforcement step of the movement phase"" the answer may have been yes.

Edited November 6, 2020 by Hintzy

[Majkhel]

Can he Heroically Intervene from space on turn one or does that count as arriving from reserves?

Edit: "In Grand Tournament 2020 missions, Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement units can never arrive on the battlefield in the first battle round." From the GT Pack.

 

I think that answers the question as no. If it said something like "reinforcement units cannot be "deployed" or "setup during the reinforcement step of the movement phase"" the answer may have been yes.

That seriously hampers Sanguinor's ability, but I also do not see it any other way as well fro the moment.

[Shaezus]

Ahhhh yeah! You're right.

[Hintzy]

I feel like lately my only contributions to the various 9th edition BA tactics discussions has been to "fact check" the various little rules/jank gold nuggets and find reasons why they can't be used. I can only apologize. As a solely BA player I want these neat suggestions to be valid as much as anybody else. The rest of you are much more creative than me and I very much enjoy reading everybody's ideas. I'm personally struggling with list archetypes for "Index BA" for an RTT I've got coming up in a few weeks, mostly limited by my current collection.

 

To bring it back to The Sanguinor, I think I've decided that were I to run him with the intention of exploiting the Heroic Intervention ability I likely wouldn't bother giving him Speed of the Primarch. He'd have to be the warlord to get the trait, as you can't use the stratagem on named characters. There are characters in my prospective lists I'd rather be the warlord, mostly those I intend to run with my SG blob. Making The Sanguinor warlord would force me to spend a CP on that other character for a useful trait, but by saving that CP using the interrupt on Sanguinor when he first comes in would only cost one net CP for the first and probably only use of the interrupt stratagem. I don't see the fight first ability being much use beyond that first fight, as Sangy will certainly be charging around every other turn.

Edited November 6, 2020 by Hintzy

[Shaezus]

@Hintzy you've nothing to apologize for bud! In fact you've just helped me out again by reminding me that sanguinor would have to be the warlord to use SotP and thus the San guard wouldn't get the bonus to hit from the captain being nearby

 

fight first can be more of a nuisance than it's worth. In Winters CEO's nids vs BA game for example it lost him a key combat and arguably lost the game. fight last doesn't have this problem. if I have first turn but can only move up the board without making any charges, suppression fire can make a huge difference to survivability. Even just as a precaution against failing a key charge

 

Really on the fence about the sanguinor now. In his favour I've used him once, against custodes, didn't give him the WT and his HI and fall back next turn was a huge problem for the opponent

[SnorriSnorrison]

Would the Miraculous Saviour ability not override the rules for Reserves? As the general rules are usually overridden by special rules. From the MS, it reads as if you could set him up in any turn since all you do is heroically intervene.

[Shaezus]

Special rules do indeed usually overrule general rules! In that case, the conditions for Miraculous Saviour allow it to be used on turn 1. Given that arriving within engagement range already overrides the general reinforcement rules, there's nothing in the wording to exclude it on turn 1

[Hintzy]

Unfortunately, I have to disagree again. Most if not all of the deep strike abilities native to data sheets would be considered special rules and also specify the unit can arrive on "any" turn. We all know this actually means turns two and three, per the mission rules. I don't see anything different in The Sanguinor's ability. The part about arriving within engagement range is articulated very clearly and is wholly separate from the timing of such a move.

[SnorriSnorrison]

Unfortunately, I have to disagree again. Most if not all of the deep strike abilities native to data sheets would be considered special rules and also specify the unit can arrive on "any" turn. We all know this actually means turns two and three, per the mission rules. I don't see anything different in The Sanguinor's ability. The part about arriving within engagement range is articulated very clearly and is wholly separate from the timing of such a move.

There is a difference actually - the Sanguinor comes in only through the action of your opponent. That means you can deploy him normally from turn 2 onwards, or, if there is a turn 1 charge made by your opponent, you should be able to bring the model down in turn 1. The restriction towards deep striking do not apply since he’s not technically using the Death from Above rule, but the rule Miraculous Saviour. Even though he uses the rule Death from Above to be placed into reserves.

 

That would be my interpretation anyways. The fact that we have a discussion over how this rule works means it needs an FAQ...

 

P.S. one point against this working on turn 1 is the Drop Pod, in which rules it specifically states that it can be deployed turn 1! So I’d say there’s both a “yay” and a “nay” to this particular question and put forward the motion to release it in an FAQ.