Strategy & Tactics: The counter - attack / charge - breaker

[BluejayJunior]

Nothing about Death from Above prevents a unit coming in from reserves on turn 1. It is the matched play rules that do that. So the fact that he is using Miraculous Savior to come in has nothing to do with it. 

There is nothing in his rules that allows him to bypass the turn 1 restriction. The fact that the drop pod specifically calls out that it ignores the turn 1 restriction is evidence that something only ignores it if specifically stated. 

To me, the rules seem pretty clear. I think it is only our wishful thinking that is fueling any interpretation that the Sanguinor can arrive turn 1. 

[SnorriSnorrison]

Nothing about Death from Above prevents a unit coming in from reserves on turn 1. It is the matched play rules that do that. So the fact that he is using Miraculous Savior to come in has nothing to do with it. 

There is nothing in his rules that allows him to bypass the turn 1 restriction. The fact that the drop pod specifically calls out that it ignores the turn 1 restriction is evidence that something only ignores it if specifically stated. 

To me, the rules seem pretty clear. I think it is only our wishful thinking that is fueling any interpretation that the Sanguinor can arrive turn 1. 

There's a yes and no to both sides, actually. The drop pod rule only has precedence, but not necessarily exclusivity for overriding the matched play rules. The way Miraculous Saviour is worded, the Sanguinor can heroically intervene when he is in reserves. There is also general practice that special rules override the matched play rules.

Wishful thinking aside, an enemy unit finishing it's charge move within engagement range prompts the activation of MS, not Death from Above. By RAW, the Sanguinor is not placed on the table using the DfA rules, that what's he's using to be placed in reserves in the first place. He can still use DfA to be placed on the table normally, if no charges are declared by your opponent. The rules collision you mention is the reason why I'd say the intention of the rule is not entirely clear. I'd personally allow it though until FAQ'd.

[BluejayJunior]

Specific rules only override matched play rules when they specifically say so. By your logic, Death from Above allows units to come in on the first turn because it doesn't say otherwise and it overwrites the matched play rules. But that is not how it works. 

Whether he is using Miraculous Savior or Death from Above to be placed on the table is irrelevant. He is starting the game in reserves and the matched pay rules say that a unit cannot come in from reserves on the first turn. Miraculous Savior doesn't have any language that overrides that rule. Same for Death from Above. 

If the intent is for it to work on the first turn, then some clarification is needed. But as it is right now, RAW is pretty clear on units that start the game in reserve not being allowed to come in on turn 1. 

Death from Above vs Miraculous Savior isn't relevant to the conversation. 

[Shaezus]

The difference is that Death from Above is a generic rule for Astartes jump pack units; Miraculous Saviour is a special rule. This is the only potential way by which the option of a Turn 1 MS might have been intended.

 

On the flip side the Callidus assassin for example, has its own special rule for arriving from reserves yet it still can't be used on turn 1. Plus of course the fact that the drop pod rule specifically states it can be used turn 1, and the case for MS on turn 1 is looking less likely.

 

Definitely worth a quick faq though

[The Unseen]

More on topic, I've found that Incursors make fantastic "bait" squads. Deploy them on midfield objectives, especially if you can get them into cover, and whether you go first or 2nd your opponent has obsec bodies to remove before they can claim primary points on turn 2. With the SMOKESCREEN keyword you can make them -1 to-hit if Dense terrain isn't around, and Haywire mines are excellent deterrents vs stuff like Harlequins trying to kill them in melee to slingshot around. A squad of Sanguinary Guard waiting behind some LoS blocking terrain behind them to counter-punch has had a lot of success for me the past few games. That and Biker's supported by a Sanguinary Priest. Both are fast and punchy enough to heavily punish anything that over-extends into the middle before they're taken care of.

[Indefragable]

More on topic, I've found that Incursors make fantastic "bait" squads. Deploy them on midfield objectives, especially if you can get them into cover, and whether you go first or 2nd your opponent has obsec bodies to remove before they can claim primary points on turn 2. With the SMOKESCREEN keyword you can make them -1 to-hit if Dense terrain isn't around, and Haywire mines are excellent deterrents vs stuff like Harlequins trying to kill them in melee to slingshot around. A squad of Sanguinary Guard waiting behind some LoS blocking terrain behind them to counter-punch has had a lot of success for me the past few games. That and Biker's supported by a Sanguinary Priest. Both are fast and punchy enough to heavily punish anything that over-extends into the middle before they're taken care of.

I’ve been shouting Incursors’ praise for a while now. I love them. Surprisingly, Smokescreen was probs lay my most used Strategem in my last game. 

[Morticon]

The wording of the Sanguinor's ability had made me automatically assume he could come in turn 1.  But, after reading this thread, I'm  now (sadly) of the view it cannot.  Whether or not this is the intent, I dont know.  But, the interaction of his rule and the matched play reserves rule dont give him a specific pass.  And the drop pod example vs other death from above stuff is a very good one.  

[Shaezus]

More on topic, I've found that Incursors make fantastic "bait" squads. Deploy them on midfield objectives, especially if you can get them into cover, and whether you go first or 2nd your opponent has obsec bodies to remove before they can claim primary points on turn 2. With the SMOKESCREEN keyword you can make them -1 to-hit if Dense terrain isn't around, and Haywire mines are excellent deterrents vs stuff like Harlequins trying to kill them in melee to slingshot around. A squad of Sanguinary Guard waiting behind some LoS blocking terrain behind them to counter-punch has had a lot of success for me the past few games. That and Biker's supported by a Sanguinary Priest. Both are fast and punchy enough to heavily punish anything that over-extends into the middle before they're taken care of.

It's a great idea. The more I play 9th Ed however, the less it seems to work.

 

Much depends on terrain setup but with tournament rulings where objectives cannot be placed on terrain, the bait tactic turns into a waste of points. If my opponent goes first, very little if any of my army will be in open LoS for shooting. Spending 2CP on smokescreen and transhuman on a unit that will die regardless is also another waste. It also offers a slingshot to the opponent, so against things like DG plague marine blobs I definitely don't want to be helping them up the board.

 

it is totally worth having a Phobos unit just in case the bait trap would make a difference. I can see it being superb against Ghazgkull; bait him in and knock a couple of wounds off with the mine, maybe another if you survive his attacks and get lucky, and by the end of BA psychic and shooting he'll be easy to take down in melee.

[The Unseen]

Just because you can't place the objectives in terrain doesn't mean you can't be in it either nearby or even within 3".

And against deathguard, sure, you don't need the bait, They're going to be moving forward anyway.

 

But against harlequins, guard, custodes, etc, having control of the midfield before the game even starts has been stellar.

 

And in a lot of games, there hasn't been any way I'm getting my entire army behind LoS blocking terrain, I can get some of it hidden sure, and can get the rest some cover saves or behind dense, but not entirely hidden, so having some forward deployed squads soak firepower with smoke and TH still has some value.

[Shaezus]

@The Unseen I'm right with you that it's an awesome tactic in general and specifically against certain setups and maybe more so in some missions than others too.

 

Just that after about 20 games of 9th including 7 with the new SM dex, I've decided to drop the incursors. More from points squeeze than anything but I found too often they were just a pointless sacrifice, or couldn't be deployed in the way I wanted them to. Thats just me from my experience with them. There are one or two players with Harlequin armies where I live but they prefer to use their DG or custodes these days so I haven't played against Harlies in a long time. I can see why you use incursors against them

 

I'll see how it goes without them for now. Can always drop a San guard model and the assault intercessors to bring the incursors back in

[Karhedron]

Would Infiltrators be superior to Incursors? They have slightly lower damage output but their defensive buffs are decent. As a delaying unit (which is really what we are talking about here), they could be superior. 12" Reserve denial bubble will mess with Pods (a lot of Space Wolf players are stocking up on Pods at the moment). They have the same smokescreen ability but can also ignore the first failed save per turn which will make it just that little bit harder for your opponent to shift them.

[The Unseen]

Infiltrators are more expensive and do less damage, so your opponent ignoring them is easier than Incursors. Incursors are -1ap with their combat knives which are very nice for us specifically. And I'd take ignoring modifiers over auto-wounding 1/6 of the time.
People aren't really using deep strike in my area currently, or when they are it's probably a mistake, but if they were I could see bringing some if you really needed to screen stuff out, like if my meta was full of people running long fangs in pods, But both can do the same job, just slightly different.

[Shaezus]

I come up against a lot of deep strike users so infiltrators are pretty much auto include for me. Definitely not as damaging as incursors but that helix gauntlet can make more difference in holding an objective for longer

 

If you're playing the bait / midfield denial tactic, is it best to do it with only one unit?

 

For example a recent game against aggressive space wolves. Sweep and clear mission. I went for bait and denial with infiltrators on one midfield objective and incursors on the other. He got first turn and charged each of these with a unit of TWC.

 

I could only use transhuman on one unit, so opted for the infiltrators. Unfortunately even with the gauntlet he was rolling well and my saves were below average. I lost both units.

 

If playing a bait, i would have been better off putting it away from an objective but close enough to take it if I got first turn. That way he can't kill them and claim an objective at the same time

[Shaezus]

One other thing. I always deploy assuming my opponent will go first.

[BluejayJunior]

With scoring for main objectives not happening on the first turn, I think it is better for Incursors/Infiltrators to deploy out of LOS or behind obscuring terrain in a position to move onto the objective in the first turn. Obviously it depends on the terrain setup. But they don't need to be actually on the objective to start the game. 

[The Unseen]

With scoring for main objectives not happening on the first turn, I think it is better for Incursors/Infiltrators to deploy out of LOS or behind obscuring terrain in a position to move onto the objective in the first turn. Obviously it depends on the terrain setup. But they don't need to be actually on the objective to start the game.

Exactly

Being within 9" is enough.

 

And deploying as if you'll not go first is pretty vital, as its now just a flat 50% chance each way.

 

Also having at least one unit that doesn't need to move off your backfield objective and can still contribute from a distance while not being completely trivial to remove is the other half of the tactic.

Quad Mortar/Thunderfire or even a whirlwind are great at it. A unit of bolt rifle or stalker equipped intercessors also aren't bad, but the non-los shooty units are the best.

 

Having that and forward deploying units let's you dominate the early board with the smallest investment, and you'll end up scoring well on primary without having to send your hammer units to stand on them, instead you can send them out to flip them from the opponent while holding yours cheaply

 

Of course, your opponent is gonna try and do the same thing, but we have possibly one of the best hammer units in the game with Sanguinary Guard.

The +1 Str on the swords, the change to Heirs, and the 3rd base attack really turn them into terrors.

[Shaezus]

If you can deploy them within 9" of a midfield objective and out of LoS, perfect. Sadly in 9th so far this has rarely been possible for me.

 

Sanguinary guard are an awesome counter attack / ambush tool. So happy with how they've performed so far.

 

I'm looking at something like this:

 

blade guard and San guard moving up to take and hold objectives on either flank. Not necessarily both. *

 

bigger San guard squad with warlord as hammer / ambush / make use of Upon Wings of Fire type of things if we get them.

 

infiltrators or assault intercessors to deploy ready to move into the centre for "oath of moment" secondary

 

* ideally concentrate bodies on one objective to make it harder to flip, focus fire on the other to deny 5 points to the opponent

[Shaezus]

How about an invictor battlesuit in place of incursors in the same role?

 

One of those loitering with intent near an objective is much killier and more resistant to anything lower than S7. Didn't work so well when going second in 8th Ed so I haven't tried it yet. Wondering if the smaller boards might make it effective

[Karhedron]

The Invictor is an interesting possibility. Give it the Incendium Cannon and that is some nasty Overwatch potential. Put it out of LOS as best as possible so you opponent can't simply shoot it down. If you opponent charges, you overwatch to try and BBQ him then go down swinging. If he tries to ignore you, he risks it charging into his units when it will be striking first instead of him. It's not guaranteed by any means but I can see mileage in it.

 

The other unit that springs to mind is a couple of Contemptor Dreads. Most of the nasty melee units we are talking about pack 2D weapons like power fists. Those lose half their damage against Dreadnoughts now. While they will wound a Contemptor on a 3+, it will still have its 5++ save and non-degrading profile meaning that if they don't kill it, it will swing back hard. Pack a MM and if it survives, it will be able to blast them in your shooting phase before hitting them again.

[BluejayJunior]

If you can deploy them within 9" of a midfield objective and out of LoS, perfect. Sadly in 9th so far this has rarely been possible for me.

 

Sanguinary guard are an awesome counter attack / ambush tool. So happy with how they've performed so far.

 

I'm looking at something like this:

 

blade guard and San guard moving up to take and hold objectives on either flank. Not necessarily both. *

 

bigger San guard squad with warlord as hammer / ambush / make use of Upon Wings of Fire type of things if we get them.

 

infiltrators or assault intercessors to deploy ready to move into the centre for "oath of moment" secondary

 

* ideally concentrate bodies on one objective to make it harder to flip, focus fire on the other to deny 5 points to the opponent

What is your terrain like? It shouldn't be hard to put to obscuring terrain around the midfield and scattered around the board to block LOS. 

[Majkhel]

I like the Contemptor option.
Warsuit seems a tad too squishy and it's harder to hide than 5 Incursors, being taller. They also cost more points and if destroyed, can give the enemy 3 points if he chosen 'Bring it Down'. Also, if you manage to hide it, he might potentially get charge from behind cover? That would deny him his overwatch.

[Shaezus]

Just to update with what we know about the new supplement. The "Angel's Sacrifice" stratagem opens up some strong new options for counter - attack strategies

 

Sanguinor & Angel's Sacrifice

 

Maybe the most direct and obvious option, but one which could completely ruin an otherwise devastating charge. More effective against smaller elite units and characters but with thoughtful positioning could stop a horde unit from over running an objective. The cherry on top is Sanguinor - if he survives - then being in position to charge other units in the BA turn. Can also be used to prevent deep - striking melee units from flipping your objectives. This is a huge thing IMO

 

Unbridled Ardour

 

Now only 1CP. Limited to the sanguard and ancient but that's fine. With Selfless Valour on the sang ancient, both can perform a 6" heroic intervention.

 

Which together with Sanguinor and Angel's Sacrifice gives us a very effective combo option against assault - heavy aggro armies. I think it deserves a name but for now all I can think of is "The Golden Trap"

 

Deploy a large bait unit, or several smaller ones, right on your line. Watch how the opponent deploys; full aggro armies will likely have at least two units wanting to charge on turn 1. Plus characters.

 

For example: SW opponent deploys a TWC unit able to reach the right flank of the bait. He deploys another TWC plus character to attack the left.

 

Place the sanguard and ancient behind the right of the bait. The closer the better, to give more room to make engagement range when they HI. Try to make sure the TWC can't reach them in the charge phase. Place the Sanguinor on the left and able to make 6" HI

 

If you win the roll off, give him first turn. If he wins, he will want to go first or face losing his TWC.

 

 

He goes first and charges the bait. Sanguinor performs HI into engagement range of the character and the TWC. The Sanguinary guard use unbridled ardour and the ancient uses selfless valour to HI on the right.

 

The oppo activates his first unit. At this point use Angel's Sacrifice on whichever character is near; sanguinor on the left, ancient on the right. You can use Only in Death (also the banner ability if it's the ancient) if your character dies. Then counter - attack with either Sanguinor or Sanguard, depending which TWC will attack next

 

It's a really simple idea and I've probably explained it in a long and boring way lol but just wanted to put it out there. Obviously there will be situational variations but it's a good core to start from. You might lose a character but it takes the punch out of their assault, causes losses to the enemy before you even start your first turn and gains a few inches of ground from where to launch your own assault

 

Thoughts and suggestions welcome!!

Edited December 2, 2020 by Shaezus

[Morticon]

Remember, Tim - at present, rules dont allow Sanguinor to deploy turn 1 since his rule doesnt specifically override the 1st turn exclusion of deploying from reserve (like the drop pod does for instance.) 

 

The trap works well otherwise. 

[Hintzy]

I think he means to deploy Sanguinor on the table during deployment.

 

My concern would be losing my SangGuard instead of my bait unit, since units that HI make themselves eligible to be targeted by chargers. Positioning could mitigate that possibly, but that would be an in the moment variable.

[Shaezus]

I had that turn 1 restriction in mind, and just going with the characters I'm already using then in this case Sangy would start on the board.

 

A judiciar with selfless valour would be just perfect, if I can fit him in somehow without skewing the list just for this situation and idea

 

The sang ancient is there to stop the sanguard from being targeted, or at least take a good deal of heat off them. Against TWC and similar fast hard hitters with only a handful of models, he can be in engagement range of half the unit, so Angel's sacrifice on him would stop a lot of attacks on the sanguard