Planning on dipping my toes in black

[Skywrath]

Hello, my black-clad brethren, the Grey Knights and the Ordo Malleus send their regards.

 

That being said, I am thinking of starting a Deathwatch army as a primaris counterpart to my Grey Knights (them being fully firstborn). Their new rules look amazing, and with the amount of customability with them, I'm even more tempted to start a primaris-only Deathwatch army. So this post is me probing the waters, as the expression goes. From this, a few questions:

 

1. Is the Start-Collecting Deathwatch box (the new one), any good for Deathwatch? 

2. I see the army can mix/match units while benefiting from all mixing/matching, which ones are worth considering? 

3. What units (primaris-only) should be the first to be bought? Is a primaris only army viable competitively?

4. How is deathwatch looking competitively with the new rules?

5. What's the playstyle of the Deathwatch? Shooty/Melee/Mid-shooty? What comparisons can be made with the Grey Knights?

6. Any other beginner tips?

Edited November 3, 2020 by Skywrath

[Qui-Gon]

The book is so new and the edition so fresh that we don't have much to say about it. The whole "being locked inside due to a global pandemic" makes playing games a bit of a challenge, especially as we've barely had access to the book via youtube for less than 4 days at this point.

 

1. It can be, if you want those units. Get the wolves and angels boxes too. They include helpful units.

2. All of them.

3. Captain and intercessors. It can be, we don't know.

4. We don't know.

5. Yes. You can build it to be anything now.

6. Get stuck in and welcome to the Long Vigil.

[Trokair]

I can second Qui-Gon and wanted to add a bit more.

• If you are just starting Deathwatch army then the Combat Patrol box is good. One thing to note, it comes with a Lieutenant and we don’t really need Lieutenants as our chapter tactic kind of act like one, so I would convert him into a captain of some sort. The other combat patrol boxes are possibly also worth getting deepening on what units you want, and Deathwatch upgrade frames (if a bit expensive for what they are) can always be bought separately (I bought 4 or so for my Indomitus box content). Also with 9th we have access to all the Shadowspear stuff for the first time, so the Vanguard Start Collecting might also be worth picking up.
• In 8th I often run a mixed Squad of Intercessors and Hellblasters, the plasma gives the squad some punch while the bolter marines give it spare wounds. Once the Heavy Intercessors come out I will probably get one and add my Indomitus Eradicators and two flamer Agressors to the unit. The can either operate as one big unit or combat squad. There are lots of options on how to make a kill teams and I am sure people are going to find all sorts of interesting combination.
• One of the aforesaid start collecting/combat patrol is probably a good starting point.
  10 intercessors are a good starting point as you can put 5 towards one kill team (and add other models as wanted) and 5 towards another.
  A primaris only force can certainly work, I played one throughout 8th (well with a single VenDread for long range anti tank and a Watchmaster because he is good utility, but with the extended primaries unit we can now get you can get the long range anti tank in primaries flavor)
• Don’t know, I am not a copetative player as such, but a few things appear strong and others will be able to say more here.
• If you are going Primaris only then I suspect it will lean towards the shooty side, though with Outriders, Bladeguard and Assault Intercessors they could shape up to have some good melee builds as well.
  I played shooty Power Armour only Grey Knights in 6th/7th and my experience in 8th with shooty Primairs Deathwatch was farily similar. 10 man strike squad with Psybolt ammo and psycannons felt similar for me to 10 man Intersessor with SIA and some Hellbalster (aside from the doubl the wound factor). The Grey knight had much better melee than the primaris force I played but otherwise it was for me a similar play stile. That said 9th has changed a lot for Deathwatch and I have no idea how Grey Knights played in 8th (or even the more melee orientated 6th /7th Terminator lists that I think where way more popular than my Power Armour lots of guns list.)
• Consider fielding a Watchmaster (even if you are otherwise all primaris) as he provides a lot of utility (think chapter master equivilant) while not costing much more than a captain (unless the points have changed a lot with the new book amd even then he is probably worth it).

[Debauchery101]

If you have any marines not committed to DW just build them. You won't go wrong making some captains, chaplains, librarians and Apothecaries.

A good start is the Cassius kill team. Not for their rules but the price of the box and the variety of what you get is an excellent addition to say getting a seperate kill team.

 

I would advice against buying any of the combat patrol boxes until you see what the rest are going to have. So far the blood angel looks best because of the impulsor tank. The DW box sucks.

If you can find a shadowspear box or vanguard start collecting for sure grab it.

 

The vets box is also a nice source of weapons arms and bits because they easily scale to primaris.

[Lemondish]

1. I'll echo what others have said - Combat Patrol is a solid investment, but it is a bit of a departure from the traditional DW Veteran focused army. It will allow you to begin fielding a Deathwatch force that looks less like the 8th edition Kill Team format and more like a traditional Marine army. Take that as you will. I will add that pretty much every one of these Combat Patrol boxes we've seen so far (including the leaked BA one) will be of value to you if you like Primaris, and I daresay from a modeling perspective the Space Wolf one is awesome even for DW. With a quick bits swap of that Battle Leader's axe you can build a really wolfy Deathwatch Intercessor Sergeant or Captain that fits well with the cross Chapter nature of the watch. 

2. This will change as things develop, but there are a ton of ideas being thrown around all across the forum. Just off the top of my head...

• 5 Intercessors and 5 Outriders, combat squad to 5 and 5 giving obsec and Infantry to the Outriders and exceeding their natural unit size limits
• 5 Infiltrators (1 Helix Adept), 1 Incursor, 4 Eliminators, combat squad to 4 Infiltrators + 1 Incursor and 4 Eliminators + 1 Helix Adept
• 5 Heavy Intercessors and a mixture of Inceptors/Aggressors for a tough, durable bully squad, or mix in Eradicators to add ablative wounds to a key marine unit
• Essentially any mixture of Veterans with Terminators, Veteran Bikers, and Vanguard Veterans works thanks to SIA and the new 2 wound profile for Firstborn

3. Primaris are competitively viable, and we know this thanks to what we've seen from the base Marine codex. Primaris units are the backbones of most of the meta Marine armies right now, and while Deathwatch plays a bit differently, it isn't nearly different enough to change this fact. As far as the first units to be purchased, any of these Combat Patrol boxes will be a fantastic addition to your collection. 

4. Early impressions from those with far more experience judging competitive viability is "hell yes". 

5. As others have said - literally anything. The power of this army is that it is so insanely tactically flexible. You can make this army work for you in so many ways thanks to that control. 

6. If you don't like modeling, get out quick. Some people suggest magnets on everything - I personally prefer just having a massive collection. Any chapter specific model released for anybody is yours to play with. The BA and DA specific Lt models make great Primaris Intercessor Sergeants, for example. Same with that Battle Leader from the Space Wolves I mentioned earlier. You like a model but it isn't for your army? Slap a DW pad on the left shoulder, paint it black, and base it as something else and it will still fit thematically. 

[Debauchery101]

if you want to build a visually dynamic army it will tax your bits box hard. If you got people to trade with get on them asap.

Sadly right now its very unreasonable to be able to build a cool army if you dont have tons of bits to give your marines some Sauce, already on hand.Thats really the main thing I like about DW. There's been times where I didn't like their rules but made room to throw a kill team in with my other armies just for the rule of cool.

 

The best way I've found stuff in covid is I straight up Google game stores in other states. Most made a website but don't have a good search engine that let's Google or duckduckgo see what they have.

The nerd part...they might just group all warhammer 40k under that textual label and everything else is by a SKU# so specific results won't ever pop up in broad searches. Its a bit more digging but I found an extra indomitus box, shadowspear, 3 tooth and claws, firstborn space wolf start collecting and 2 DW start collecting since lockdown. Some stores websites may just be for announcements and events. Try giving them a call or email. Most will sell over the phone and ship.

Edited November 4, 2020 by Debauchery101

[Reskin]

This might help - It's a 40k youtube channel. Brits, but they are sensible and on point. Giving a codex rundown.

[Skywrath]

I'll have a response later today, folks, thanks for your responses so far.

[Skywrath]

So now that the exams dissapeared, I can finally address this, sorry for the wait. Questions/speculation In blue.

 

The book is so new and the edition so fresh that we don't have much to say about it. The whole "being locked inside due to a global pandemic" makes playing games a bit of a challenge, especially as we've barely had access to the book via youtube for less than 4 days at this point.

 

1. It can be, if you want those units. Get the wolves and angels boxes too. They include helpful units.

2. All of them.

 

What I meant more specifically were the Kill-teams. I'm completely new here, so the question is - which Killteams are worth prioritising?

 

3. Captain and intercessors. It can be, we don't know.

4. We don't know.

5. Yes. You can build it to be anything now.

6. Get stuck in and welcome to the Long Vigil.\

 

Thanks!

 

 

 

I can second Qui-Gon and wanted to add a bit more.

• If you are just starting Deathwatch army then the Combat Patrol box is good. One thing to note, it comes with a Lieutenant and we don’t really need Lieutenants as our chapter tactic kind of act like one, so I would convert him into a captain of some sort. The other combat patrol boxes are possibly also worth getting deepening on what units you want, and Deathwatch upgrade frames (if a bit expensive for what they are) can always be bought separately (I bought 4 or so for my Indomitus box content). Also with 9th we have access to all the Shadowspear stuff for the first time, so the Vanguard Start Collecting might also be worth picking up.

I got a DA Master in Gravis Armor that can fit the bill pretty well. I'm not sure whether I want to pull away from my DA and re-paint them, but I have a lot of primaris units in DA colors however they would be in need of a re-paint.

• In 8th I often run a mixed Squad of Intercessors and Hellblasters, the plasma gives the squad some punch while the bolter marines give it spare wounds. Once the Heavy Intercessors come out I will probably get one and add my Indomitus Eradicators and two flamer Aggressors to the unit. The can either operate as one big unit or combat squad. There are lots of options on how to make a kill teams and I am sure people are going to find all sorts of interesting combination.

That sounds interesting though, and seeing how the Deathwatch rules claim that when taking tests take the highest T model (if it's the majority), I imagine one of those blobs would be mostly gravis based? (like 3 of the models out of 5, if you run them in squads of 5?)

• One of the aforesaid start collecting/combat patrol is probably a good starting point.
  10 intercessors are a good starting point as you can put 5 towards one kill team (and add other models as wanted) and 5 towards another.
  A primaris only force can certainly work, I played one throughout 8th (well with a single VenDread for long range anti tank and a Watchmaster because he is good utility, but with the extended primaries unit we can now get you can get the long range anti tank in primaries flavor)

So by that logic, you'd recommend getting a Watch-Master? And with the recent changes, would a redemptor be better than a Venerable?

• Don’t know, I am not a copetative player as such, but a few things appear strong and others will be able to say more here.
• If you are going Primaris only then I suspect it will lean towards the shooty side, though with Outriders, Bladeguard and Assault Intercessors they could shape up to have some good melee builds as well.
  I played shooty Power Armour only Grey Knights in 6th/7th and my experience in 8th with shooty Primairs Deathwatch was farily similar. 10 man strike squad with Psybolt ammo and psycannons felt similar for me to 10 man Intersessor with SIA and some Hellbalster (aside from the doubl the wound factor). The Grey knight had much better melee than the primaris force I played but otherwise it was for me a similar play stile. That said 9th has changed a lot for Deathwatch and I have no idea how Grey Knights played in 8th (or even the more melee orientated 6th /7th Terminator lists that I think where way more popular than my Power Armour lots of guns list.)

So mostly shooty based army, with potential to be melee, interesting, thanks! I'm not sure whether my interpretation is correct, but in the recent previewed rules of the DW, there was a strategem (?) that allowed a unit to take on a chapter tactic? So if I gave my Bladeguard the Blood Angels +1 to charge/wound(attacks?) that could be a "thing"?

• Consider fielding a Watchmaster (even if you are otherwise all primaris) as he provides a lot of utility (think chapter master equivilant) while not costing much more than a captain (unless the points have changed a lot with the new book amd even then he is probably worth it).

Derp, didn't read this before I posted my hypothesis.. Will do!

 

 

If you have any marines not committed to DW just build them. You won't go wrong making some captains, chaplains, librarians and Apothecaries.

 

Good suggestion, perhaps my Master in Gravis armor will see play (I love that model, just haven't got the chance to use him yet). With the librarians and chaplains are the firstborn librarians better than their primaris counter-part? I imagine you'd want maybe 2 captains, 1 chaplain, 2 librarians, and 2 apothecaries at best? Also do you have the option to have Apothecaries on bikes, akin to a Ravenwing Apothecary?

A good start is the Cassius kill team. Not for their rules but the price of the box and the variety of what you get is an excellent addition to say getting a separate kill team.

 

If I remember right, Cassius was firstborn only? Unless you mean taking the idea of it, and using primaris models?

I would advice against buying any of the combat patrol boxes until you see what the rest are going to have. So far the blood angel looks best because of the impulsor tank. The DW box sucks.
If you can find a shadowspear box or vanguard start collecting for sure grab it.

The vets box is also a nice source of weapons arms and bits because they easily scale to primaris.

 

Thanks for the suggestions!

 

 

1. I'll echo what others have said - Combat Patrol is a solid investment, but it is a bit of a departure from the traditional DW Veteran focused army. It will allow you to begin fielding a Deathwatch force that looks less like the 8th edition Kill Team format and more like a traditional Marine army. Take that as you will. I will add that pretty much every one of these Combat Patrol boxes we've seen so far (including the leaked BA one) will be of value to you if you like Primaris, and I daresay from a modeling perspective the Space Wolf one is awesome even for DW. With a quick bits swap of that Battle Leader's axe you can build a really wolfy Deathwatch Intercessor Sergeant or Captain that fits well with the cross Chapter nature of the watch. 

 

Interesting idea! I need to remember the Deathwatch can use any chapter and call it their own Are the impulsor that good? I was looking at their stat-sheet a while ago, and I'm not really seeing their effectivity. If I were to read between the lines, are you saying that the firsborn killteams are better than the primaris ones?

 

2. This will change as things develop, but there are a ton of ideas being thrown around all across the forum. Just off the top of my head...

• 5 Intercessors and 5 Outriders, combat squad to 5 and 5 giving obsec and Infantry to the Outriders and exceeding their natural unit size limits
• 5 Infiltrators (1 Helix Adept), 1 Incursor, 4 Eliminators, combat squad to 4 Infiltrators + 1 Incursor and 4 Eliminators + 1 Helix Adept
• 5 Heavy Intercessors and a mixture of Inceptors/Aggressors for a tough, durable bully squad, or mix in Eradicators to add ablative wounds to a key marine unit
• Essentially any mixture of Veterans with Terminators, Veteran Bikers, and Vanguard Veterans works thanks to SIA and the new 2 wound profile for Firstborn

Noted down and remembered, thanks! I like the third one a lot. Which brings me to an interesting question, if you had outriders that have a M14 and a Intercessor of M6, and the primaris outrdier moves further than the 2" combat coherency rule, how do you deathwatch play around that rule? I am new to this, so take my question with a grain of salt, but it seems counter-intuitive having a outrider move faster than the rest of the squad, based of that logic. Wouldn't it make more sense to pair outriders with inceptors perhaps, because of the M characteristic?

 

3. Primaris are competitively viable, and we know this thanks to what we've seen from the base Marine codex. Primaris units are the backbones of most of the meta Marine armies right now, and while Deathwatch plays a bit differently, it isn't nearly different enough to change this fact. As far as the first units to be purchased, any of these Combat Patrol boxes will be a fantastic addition to your collection. 

 

Speaking of which, the niche indomitus units such as the Captain with the storm-shield (which is unpainted at the moment), would that be a good choice?

 

4. Early impressions from those with far more experience judging competitive viability is "hell yes".

5. As others have said - literally anything. The power of this army is that it is so insanely tactically flexible. You can make this army work for you in so many ways thanks to that control.

 

I like that a lot, hence why I am considering joining the Long Watch

 

6. If you don't like modeling, get out quick. Some people suggest magnets on everything - I personally prefer just having a massive collection. Any chapter specific model released for anybody is yours to play with. The BA and DA specific Lt models make great Primaris Intercessor Sergeants, for example. Same with that Battle Leader from the Space Wolves I mentioned earlier. You like a model but it isn't for your army? Slap a DW pad on the left shoulder, paint it black, and base it as something else and it will still fit thematically. 

 

Very much the opposite, I love coming up with original model sculpts/conversions. But yeah, all of this sounds very much like my type of army, practically (playing on TT) speaking.

 

 

if you want to build a visually dynamic army it will tax your bits box hard. If you got people to trade with get on them asap.
Sadly right now its very unreasonable to be able to build a cool army if you dont have tons of bits to give your marines some Sauce, already on hand.Thats really the main thing I like about DW. There's been times where I didn't like their rules but made room to throw a kill team in with my other armies just for the rule of cool.

The best way I've found stuff in covid is I straight up Google game stores in other states. Most made a website but don't have a good search engine that let's Google or duckduckgo see what they have.
The nerd part...they might just group all warhammer 40k under that textual label and everything else is by a SKU# so specific results won't ever pop up in broad searches. Its a bit more digging but I found an extra indomitus box, shadowspear, 3 tooth and claws, firstborn space wolf start collecting and 2 DW start collecting since lockdown. Some stores websites may just be for announcements and events. Try giving them a call or email. Most will sell over the phone and ship.

 

Thanks for the advice!

Edited November 7, 2020 by Skywrath

[Lemondish]

Interesting idea! I need to remember the Deathwatch can use any chapter and call it their own smile.png Are the impulsor that good? I was looking at their stat-sheet a while ago, and I'm not really seeing their effectivity. If I were to read between the lines, are you saying that the firsborn killteams are better than the primaris ones?

The Impulsor was a key piece of Marine competitive builds for a long time at the tail end of 8th, and while it certainly isn't as durable as it once was, it's still a unique piece of equipment to get some powerful units into position very quickly. Unlike other transports, you can pile out of it after moving, which gives you some play with things like Intercessors and Hellblasters deploying to move block and bring the pain, as well as key Primaris characters, like that Librarian. As far as Kill Teams go, I'd say the Veteran teams are more the classic Deathwatch style with mixed armour and Special Issue Ammunition, but I'm personally really drawn to the builds you can do with Indomitor and Spectrus teams as well.

 

Noted down and remembered, thanks! I like the third one a lot. Which brings me to an interesting question, if you had outriders that have a M14 and a Intercessor of M6, and the primaris outrdier moves further than the 2" combat coherency rule, how do you deathwatch play around that rule? I am new to this, so take my question with a grain of salt, but it seems counter-intuitive having a outrider move faster than the rest of the squad, based of that logic. Wouldn't it make more sense to pair outriders with inceptors perhaps, because of the M characteristic?

Here's the thing about Kill Teams - they are all based on armour types on the Primaris side now, so they do not mix any longer. This means Phobos with Phobos (Spectrus Kill Team), Gravis with Gravis (Indomitor Kill Team), and Tacticus with Tacticus (Fortis Kill Team). You can't mix in Inceptors with Outriders, but you're absolutely right about the movement being stunted, but that's because you haven't considered the effect of combat squad.

 

The key part of that unit is to combat squad it at deployment so that you have two separate units. This leaves you with one 5 man Intercessor unit, a reliable mainstay of any Marine force, even if it isn't particularly flashy, along with a separate 5 man Outrider unit. This bestows a variety of benefits on the Outriders, specifically...

 

1. They are now infantry, so can move like infantry through ruins

2. They are also now Obsec, so they can contest objectives with the best of them

3. They get to exceed the maximum datasheet unit limit that you'd otherwise be stuck with if you took them as a Fast Attack slot, massively improving their buff efficiency

 

Speaking of which, the niche indomitus units such as the Captain with the storm-shield (which is unpainted at the moment), would that be a good choice?

Absolutely, as he's a beast on his own and is a key part to many competitive winning Marine lists, he'll also give you a solid option to carry the Dominus Aegis, which will bestow a 5+ Invulnerable Save to your other Core units near him. Another cool one is the ridiculously high anti-character killing potential of the Phobos Captain that can support any Spectrus teams you have, or the reliability of the Gravis guy to be a ridiculously durable beatstick. Don't ignore the benefits of fast moving bike/jump pack Firstborn as well. Honestly, the biggest challenge for Deathwatch is selecting the right Captain for your style since you're very likely to be limited to one given how CP hungry the force looks to be and there are sooooo many decent options there.

 

I'll end this post by just saying that Firstborn have their foot strictly in the past in how they represent the original Deathwatch concept, while Primaris take a very different, but no less effective approach. You aren't going to be rocking mixed armour units with special issue ammunition if you go with Primaris, which has been the Deathwatch modus operandi since inception. Instead, you'll have one of the most tactically and strategically flexible Marine forces that can do things other Marine armies could only dream of. 

Edited November 7, 2020 by Lemondish

[Trokair]

 

So mostly shooty based army, with potential to be melee, interesting, thanks! I'm not sure whether my interpretation is correct, but in the recent previewed rules of the DW, there was a strategem (?) that allowed a unit to take on a chapter tactic? So if I gave my Bladeguard the Blood Angels +1 to charge/wound(attacks?) that could be a "thing"?

 

 

 

The Primaris side is defiantly more shooty than melee, especially what we had available in 8^th. However with all the new units added you can certainly run a primaries melee army.

All three Primaris Kill team as their starting point have a shooty unit (5 Intercessors, 5 Heavy Intercessors and 5 Infiltrators respectively) so to make a melee primaries army focused on them is going to be a little awkward, but is doable. The 5 Intercessors 5 Outrider squad can certainly have a punch.

 

(I do feel like GW missed a trick with the Intercessors kill team, I wish it had been 5 Intercessors or 5 assault intercessors as the starting point and then an option to add bladeguard. Maybe next edition. )

 

However, even if the kill teams are not as suited for melee you can always just pick normal primaris melee units such as Bladeguard, Assault Intercessors and Aggressors. Deathwatch still have a lot of flexibility with the chapter tactic, Stratagems (including the take on a different chapter tactic one), picking when you want which doctrine.

 

In terms of Melee builds Firstorne probably do it better as the Veterans and the Killteam (which uses Veterans as its starting point) and Deathwatch Terminators (How does a squad of 5 with thunder hammer and storm shield with 3 of them also having Cyclone missile launchers sound?). But really the codex is one of the most flexible and customisable armies there is, so build what you fancy.

 

 

When you get the codex supplement (or using the index if you don’t want to commit the buying the book just yet, the index is officially out of date now, but as starting/research aid it is still good) why not throw together a list of what feels right to you and then see

 

 

I believe the only way to have an apothecary on bike is via Legends, same as any other Marine army (except DA with their Ravenwing).

 

Under the current Marine codex you can only have one captain per detachment, so do keep that in mind. And unlike other Marines we cannot get around this by upgrading one to a chapter master. We have the Watch Master instead as its own unit. 

[Skywrath]

 

Interesting idea! I need to remember the Deathwatch can use any chapter and call it their own smile.png Are the impulsor that good? I was looking at their stat-sheet a while ago, and I'm not really seeing their effectivity. If I were to read between the lines, are you saying that the firsborn killteams are better than the primaris ones?

The Impulsor was a key piece of Marine competitive builds for a long time at the tail end of 8th, and while it certainly isn't as durable as it once was, it's still a unique piece of equipment to get some powerful units into position very quickly. Unlike other transports, you can pile out of it after moving, which gives you some play with things like Intercessors and Hellblasters deploying to move block and bring the pain, as well as key Primaris characters, like that Librarian. As far as Kill Teams go, I'd say the Veteran teams are more the classic Deathwatch style with mixed armour and Special Issue Ammunition, but I'm personally really drawn to the builds you can do with Indomitor and Spectrus teams as well.

 

What about Fortis? I got a fair amount of primaris units with my Dark Angels that can be repainted (mostly because they were my first models) in deathwatch colors? And if I do have 15 intercesors with hellblasters, making this ideal? I'll give the Impulsor a closer look tomorrow.

 

Noted down and remembered, thanks! I like the third one a lot. Which brings me to an interesting question, if you had outriders that have a M14 and a Intercessor of M6, and the primaris outrdier moves further than the 2" combat coherency rule, how do you deathwatch play around that rule? I am new to this, so take my question with a grain of salt, but it seems counter-intuitive having a outrider move faster than the rest of the squad, based of that logic. Wouldn't it make more sense to pair outriders with inceptors perhaps, because of the M characteristic?

Here's the thing about Kill Teams - they are all based on armour types on the Primaris side now, so they do not mix any longer. This means Phobos with Phobos (Spectrus Kill Team), Gravis with Gravis (Indomitor Kill Team), and Tacticus with Tacticus (Fortis Kill Team). You can't mix in Inceptors with Outriders, but you're absolutely right about the movement being stunted, but that's because you haven't considered the effect of combat squad.

 

The key part of that unit is to combat squad it at deployment so that you have two separate units. This leaves you with one 5 man Intercessor unit, a reliable mainstay of any Marine force, even if it isn't particularly flashy, along with a separate 5 man Outrider unit. This bestows a variety of benefits on the Outriders, specifically...

 

1. They are now infantry, so can move like infantry through ruins

2. They are also now Obsec, so they can contest objectives with the best of them

3. They get to exceed the maximum datasheet unit limit that you'd otherwise be stuck with if you took them as a Fast Attack slot, massively improving their buff efficiency

 

Ah yes, with the BS update, I can see what I can take or can't. Seeing how my rule is primaris only, then my options would be Fortis, Indomitus and Spectrus. Personally, I'd think the later two might be the better options, while Fortis taken as a cheaper option? What about their disciplines, which ones would you take, if at all?

 

Speaking of which, the niche indomitus units such as the Captain with the storm-shield (which is unpainted at the moment), would that be a good choice?

Absolutely, as he's a beast on his own and is a key part to many competitive winning Marine lists, he'll also give you a solid option to carry the Dominus Aegis, which will bestow a 5+ Invulnerable Save to your other Core units near him. Another cool one is the ridiculously high anti-character killing potential of the Phobos Captain that can support any Spectrus teams you have, or the reliability of the Gravis guy to be a ridiculously durable beatstick. Don't ignore the benefits of fast moving bike/jump pack Firstborn as well. Honestly, the biggest challenge for Deathwatch is selecting the right Captain for your style since you're very likely to be limited to one given how CP hungry the force looks to be and there are sooooo many decent options there.

 

I'll end this post by just saying that Firstborn have their foot strictly in the past in how they represent the original Deathwatch concept, while Primaris take a very different, but no less effective approach. You aren't going to be rocking mixed armour units with special issue ammunition if you go with Primaris, which has been the Deathwatch modus operandi since inception. Instead, you'll have one of the most tactically and strategically flexible Marine forces that can do things other Marine armies could only dream of. 

 

I'm leaning towards the Gravis Captain, mainly because with the Blackweave Shroud and the Librarian psychic ability, I can give him S6, T7, A7 (with shock assault). Plus he's a rare model, you don't see those around. This is probably a passing phase, but I look forward to the hilarity I can unleash with him. That Dominus Aegis relic looks pretty interesting as well, I need to give it some more thought. I'm frankly overwhelmed by all the options and customability deathwatch has, but I'm positively giddy with joy with finding out other options. With regards to SIA, I see that is now a stategem for bolt weapons, meaning intercessors can benefit from them, with stalker bolt rifles being the go-to option?

 

Let's talk Relics for a moment. What are your thoughts on the Beacon Angelis, Blackweave Shroud, Purgatus and Eye of Abiding? I like all of them, but having a really hard time justifying taking any of those? Like I can see the Beacon being used with a mobile unit such as outriders, and with the list I provided below, having a captain with the obsec aura and the librarian with the shrouding spell/FNP spell, could ensure those outrider blobs stay on the board for a long time. The Blackweave Shroud is useful perhaps against Necrons (Ironic, because I have a game against a Necron player tommorow), and Purgatus/Eye of Abiding is awesome. What combos can you think of that might be worth considering?

 

 

 

So mostly shooty based army, with potential to be melee, interesting, thanks! I'm not sure whether my interpretation is correct, but in the recent previewed rules of the DW, there was a strategem (?) that allowed a unit to take on a chapter tactic? So if I gave my Bladeguard the Blood Angels +1 to charge/wound(attacks?) that could be a "thing"?

 

 

 

The Primaris side is defiantly more shooty than melee, especially what we had available in 8^th. However with all the new units added you can certainly run a primaries melee army.

All three Primaris Kill team as their starting point have a shooty unit (5 Intercessors, 5 Heavy Intercessors and 5 Infiltrators respectively) so to make a melee primaries army focused on them is going to be a little awkward, but is doable. The 5 Intercessors 5 Outrider squad can certainly have a punch.

 

(I do feel like GW missed a trick with the Intercessors kill team, I wish it had been 5 Intercessors or 5 assault intercessors as the starting point and then an option to add bladeguard. Maybe next edition. )

 

However, even if the kill teams are not as suited for melee you can always just pick normal primaris melee units such as Bladeguard, Assault Intercessors and Aggressors. Deathwatch still have a lot of flexibility with the chapter tactic, Stratagems (including the take on a different chapter tactic one), picking when you want which doctrine.

 

In terms of Melee builds Firstorne probably do it better as the Veterans and the Killteam (which uses Veterans as its starting point) and Deathwatch Terminators (How does a squad of 5 with thunder hammer and storm shield with 3 of them also having Cyclone missile launchers sound?). But really the codex is one of the most flexible and customisable armies there is, so build what you fancy.

 

 

When you get the codex supplement (or using the index if you don’t want to commit the buying the book just yet, the index is officially out of date now, but as starting/research aid it is still good) why not throw together a list of what feels right to you and then see

 

 

I believe the only way to have an apothecary on bike is via Legends, same as any other Marine army (except DA with their Ravenwing).

 

Under the current Marine codex you can only have one captain per detachment, so do keep that in mind. And unlike other Marines we cannot get around this by upgrading one to a chapter master. We have the Watch Master instead as its own unit. 

 

 

Thanks for the response, and sorry for the delay. I purchased the Deathwatch codex/data-cards and am in the process of re-painting my DA intercessors into DW ones with the shoulder pads. What units should I go for next in a Deathwatch army? I have a fair few primaris units over with my Dark Angels (which I can't be bothered listing, sorry!), that's all, which I can convert over. 

 

Until I get the models I need for a competitive army, I came up with this list, how does this look? 

 

 

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Deathwatch) [110 PL, 11CP, 2,000pts] ++

 

+ Configuration +

 

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) 

 

Detachment CP

 

+ Stratagems +

 

Stratagem: Sanction of the Black Vault [-1CP]

 

+ HQ +

 

Captain in Gravis Armor [6 PL, 115pts]: Rites of War, The Blackweave Shroud, Warlord

 

Librarian in Terminator Armor [6 PL, 110pts]: 2. Fortified With Contempt, 5. Mantle of Shadow, Force stave, Storm bolter

 

+ Troops +

 

Fortis Kill Team [16 PL, 265pts]

. 5x Hellblaster w/ Plasma incinerator: 5x Bolt pistol, 5x Frag & Krak grenades, 5x Plasma incinerator

. Intercessor Sergeant: Bolt rifle

. 4x Intercessor w/ Bolt rifle: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Bolt rifle, 4x Frag & Krak grenades

 

Fortis Kill Team [16 PL, 265pts]

. 5x Hellblaster w/ Plasma incinerator: 5x Bolt pistol, 5x Frag & Krak grenades, 5x Plasma incinerator

. Intercessor Sergeant: Bolt rifle

. 4x Intercessor w/ Bolt rifle: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Bolt rifle, 4x Frag & Krak grenades

 

Fortis Kill Team [7 PL, 120pts]

. Intercessor Sergeant: Stalker Bolt Rifle

. 5x Intercessor w/ Stalker Bolt Rifle: 5x Bolt pistol, 5x Frag & Krak grenades, 5x Stalker Bolt Rifle

 

+ Elites +

 

Aggressor Squad [12 PL, 180pts]: 3x Aggressor, Aggressor Sergeant

. Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher

 

Aggressor Squad [12 PL, 180pts]: 3x Aggressor, Aggressor Sergeant

. Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher

 

Deathwatch Terminator Squad [9 PL, 210pts]

. Deathwatch Terminator

. . Power fist and Storm bolter: Power fist

. Deathwatch Terminator

. . Power fist and Storm bolter: Power fist

. Deathwatch Terminator

. . Power fist and Storm bolter: Power fist

. Deathwatch Terminator Sergeant

. . Power fist and Storm bolter: Power fist

. Deathwatch Terminator w/ Heavy Weapon: Power fist

. . Cyclone missile launcher and Storm bolter: Cyclone missile launcher

 

Primaris Apothecary [5 PL, 105pts]: Chapter Command:  Chief Apothecary, The Beacon Angelis

 

Redemptor Dreadnought [9 PL, 180pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Macro Plasma Incinerator, Onslaught Gatling Cannon

 

+ Fast Attack +

 

Outrider Squad [6 PL, 135pts]: Outrider Sgt

. 2x Outrider: 2x Astartes Chainsword, 2x Frag & Krak grenades, 2x Heavy Bolt Pistol, 2x Twin Bolt rifle

 

Outrider Squad [6 PL, 135pts]: Outrider Sgt

. 2x Outrider: 2x Astartes Chainsword, 2x Frag & Krak grenades, 2x Heavy Bolt Pistol, 2x Twin Bolt rifle

 

++ Total: [110 PL, 11CP, 2,000pts] ++

 

Fellow Brothers of the Deathwatch, consider this my admission into your ranks, (I have 5 more intercessors being painted up).

 

Edited November 9, 2020 by Skywrath

[Trokair]

Looks like an ok list. Any reason why the third Fortis team is 6 models? Just left over points?

 

In terms of Relics, I often have a Beacon Angelis around as it allows for some repositioning shenanigans. Pull a unit to the character from across the board mid game can allow you to reinforce a push for an objective or similar, or retrieve a unit that has become stranded or isolated.

 

Blackweave is new, so no experience yet, but making a key character more survivable is always good.   

[Skywrath]

Looks like an ok list. Any reason why the third Fortis team is 6 models? Just left over points?

 

In terms of Relics, I often have a Beacon Angelis around as it allows for some repositioning shenanigans. Pull a unit to the character from across the board mid game can allow you to reinforce a push for an objective or similar, or retrieve a unit that has become stranded or isolated.

 

Blackweave is new, so no experience yet, but making a key character more survivable is always good.   

 

The apothecary has it to reinforce the Outriders. I plan to use the Librarian/Apothecary as dedicated units to protect the Outrider blob, while the Redemptor/Aggressors protect the interceptors.  As for the other 5 interessors, they were just left over, sadly. That being said, you didn't really answer my question, what primaris units should I focus on buying?

[Trokair]

Honestly, whatever you want / feel like. Not a helpfull answer I know, sorry.

 

The only think that your above list may lack is dedicated long range anti-tank. You have lots of ways of killing light and elite infantry at range or melee, and can also deal with tanks/monsters in melee with the Agressors/Terminators. So maybe some a unit of Eradicators/Eliminators with Lasfusil/a Ven Dread with Twin Lascannon/Missile Launcer or something similar. Plasma can do long range anti tank in a pinch but it normally wants to overcharge for the higher damage (and sometimes strength) which can be risky.

 

I am not a competitive player so I don’t know what the optimized units are or will be. I can guess at what might be good/and see what other people are saying is good. Such as the ATV Apothecary combo that probably is going to be FAQed to not be as good (or just gone).  

 

As an example, I personally am intending to add to my Deathwatch the following with the new codex, not for every game, but as units available to draw from when building lists:

 

A Indomitor Kill Team (once the Heavy Intercessors box come out) with the Eradicator from the Indomitus box and some Aggressors.  The unit will combat squad with the HI holding a back filed objective and the Eradicators/Aggressors going tank hunting, the Aggressors serve as extra wounds/charge deterrent/chaff clearance so that the Eradicators can get on with their job.

 

A Spectrus Kill Team with 5 Eliminators for character sniping.

 

Outriders added to one of Fortis teams, they are essentially replacing the Aggressors that used to fill out the third Fortis team (the first two are bolt rifle/Plasma and Stalker/Hheavy Plasma respectively, though the later might become assault bolter/plasma now, especially as the HI will probably end up replacing that squads role of back filed objective holders).

Edited November 9, 2020 by Trokair

[Lemondish]

What about Fortis? I got a fair amount of primaris units with my Dark Angels that can be repainted (mostly because they were my first models) in deathwatch colors? And if I do have 15 intercesors with hellblasters, making this ideal? I'll give the Impulsor a closer look tomorrow.

As in the past, one of the benefits of adding Hellblasters is to mitigate one of the biggest weaknesses of Hellblasters by adding ablative wounds with the Intercessors, all while making the blob Obsec as a bonus. You can also use it to make pseudo-Tactical squads out of Primaris units with the combat squad ability, netting you the option to throw a couple powerful plasma weapons into 5 man Intercessor units. The Impulsor would allow you to basically deploy these squads within Rapid Fire range of any high toughness target you wish to end, and since they're all obsec they also give you the mobility to challenge an objective whenever you wish.

 

The only real con is the loss of the Intercessor keyword when you make the unit a Fortis team, which locks you out of the Rapid Fire Stratagem from the main codex.

 

Ah yes, with the BS update, I can see what I can take or can't. Seeing how my rule is primaris only, then my options would be Fortis, Indomitus and Spectrus. Personally, I'd think the later two might be the better options, while Fortis taken as a cheaper option? What about their disciplines, which ones would you take, if at all?

When it comes to Specialisms, I usually think about what I want a unit to do and will select based on that. Just some examples based on the Primaris Kill Teams above...

 

Spectrus Kill Team with 5x Infiltrators (one Helix Adept), 1x Incursor, and 4x Elminators. This unit is then split into combat squads with two distinct roles, so Aquila feels like a good fit here. I honestly might not even use a Specialism here, to be honest.

 

Indomitor Kill Team with mostly anti-infantry firepower would be solid as both Furor (Troops) and Dominatus (Elite). A similar Kill Team mixing in Eradicators instead would be best as Malleus (Heavy Support) or Dominatus.

 

For Fortis, I'd say the Intercessor/Hellblaster unit would be best hunting Elite targets or flexing with Aquila. An Outrider focused unit planning to combat squad would benefit from Furor given the weapon profiles you're likely to be playing with here.

 

I'm leaning towards the Gravis Captain, mainly because with the Blackweave Shroud and the Librarian psychic ability, I can give him S6, T7, A7 (with shock assault). Plus he's a rare model, you don't see those around. This is probably a passing phase, but I look forward to the hilarity I can unleash with him. That Dominus Aegis relic looks pretty interesting as well, I need to give it some more thought. I'm frankly overwhelmed by all the options and customability deathwatch has, but I'm positively giddy with joy with finding out other options. With regards to SIA, I see that is now a stategem for bolt weapons, meaning intercessors can benefit from them, with stalker bolt rifles being the go-to option?

Him being rare is probably one of the best reasons to field him, so I'm with you there.

 

As for SIA on Primaris, it is a Stratagem, but it is pretty expensive at 2CP. Heavy bolt weapons that are already only 1 shot baseline are good choices for it, so just as you mentioned Stalker bolt rifles and the new heavy stalker equivalent.

 

The point I was trying to make is that the old school Deathwatch style that leaned heavily on SIA and mixed units is not what Primaris DW is all about. While you can certainly use SIA with them, it's super limited, expensive, and temporary. I don't think it make sense to really lean into that and instead of using Primaris for their own strengths.

 

Let's talk Relics for a moment. What are your thoughts on the Beacon Angelis, Blackweave Shroud, Purgatus and Eye of Abiding? I like all of them, but having a really hard time justifying taking any of those? Like I can see the Beacon being used with a mobile unit such as outriders, and with the list I provided below, having a captain with the obsec aura and the librarian with the shrouding spell/FNP spell, could ensure those outrider blobs stay on the board for a long time. The Blackweave Shroud is useful perhaps against Necrons (Ironic, because I have a game against a Necron player tommorow), and Purgatus/Eye of Abiding is awesome. What combos can you think of that might be worth considering?

Blackweave Shroud will be excellent against heavy psychich armies (or even those Necron C'Tan powers) that dish out extroardinary amounts of mortal wounds, while also not being particularly worthless when you aren't facing those types of forces. Durability enhancement makes certain that the force multiplication capabilities of a Captain are around for much longer. I think this is a good choice for a character you want to keep around as long as possible.

 

The Beacon Angelis is such a fantastic item, but lacks vectors for use for Primaris outside of things like Impulsors and the Bike Chaplain. It's a piece of kit that adds some amazing force multiplication potential, but you need to be able to get it into position. The amount of movement shenanigans you can achieve with this is just straight awesome, but Primaris have fewer good ways to leverage it compared to Firstborn.

 

Purgatorus, the bolt pistol, is a great alternative to a plasma pistol since it is cheaper and does more potential damage (even if it can't always wound as reliably), while being much safer. It's a fun pick, but I think given the powerful relics DW have this one will be a bit forgettable.

 

The Eye of Abiding is an interesting one. On something like a Watch Master, I am super enticed. But for a Primaris unit like a captain with power fist, or your Gravis guy, you'll be looking at a good way to maximize damage while also removing that baseline penalty to hit in melee. I like it, especially when considering how it behaves against invuln saves, but I won't really know for sure how it performs until I can get some practical experience with it.

[Skywrath]

Honestly, whatever you want / feel like. Not a helpfull answer I know, sorry.

 

The only think that your above list may lack is dedicated long range anti-tank. You have lots of ways of killing light and elite infantry at range or melee, and can also deal with tanks/monsters in melee with the Agressors/Terminators. So maybe some a unit of Eradicators/Eliminators with Lasfusil/a Ven Dread with Twin Lascannon/Missile Launcer or something similar. Plasma can do long range anti tank in a pinch but it normally wants to overcharge for the higher damage (and sometimes strength) which can be risky.

 

I am not a competitive player so I don’t know what the optimized units are or will be. I can guess at what might be good/and see what other people are saying is good. Such as the ATV Apothecary combo that probably is going to be FAQed to not be as good (or just gone).  

 

As an example, I personally am intending to add to my Deathwatch the following with the new codex, not for every game, but as units available to draw from when building lists:

 

A Indomitor Kill Team (once the Heavy Intercessors box come out) with the Eradicator from the Indomitus box and some Aggressors.  The unit will combat squad with the HI holding a back filed objective and the Eradicators/Aggressors going tank hunting, the Aggressors serve as extra wounds/charge deterrent/chaff clearance so that the Eradicators can get on with their job.

 

A Spectrus Kill Team with 5 Eliminators for character sniping.

 

Outriders added to one of Fortis teams, they are essentially replacing the Aggressors that used to fill out the third Fortis team (the first two are bolt rifle/Plasma and Stalker/Hheavy Plasma respectively, though the later might become assault bolter/plasma now, especially as the HI will probably end up replacing that squads role of back filed objective holders).

 

So in what ratio would you expect to have spectrus/indomitus/fortis KT's? 2 of each, perhaps? 

 

With Spectrus, I can see having 2 reivers/2 eliminators, -1 infilatrator and +1 helix adept perhaps? Reivers because of the 2CP remove obsec strategem and does the whole squad benefit from grav chute?

With Indomitus, I'm not sure whether you'd include Aggressors in the mix, and I'm not sold on inceptors as their M characteristic is just too large compared to M5 Gravis. Perhaps only 3 Eradicators and maybe 2 Aggressors, just because?

With Fortis - definitely 3 outriders in each. Question about that one though, it says you can split them in equal amounts, correct? Let's assume you have 5 intercessors/5 outriders. Outriders can only be in squads of 3, how would you go around that? Does the rule get negated?

 

With the above list, don't pay too much attention to that, that's there as a proverbial foot into the door for me to try them.

 

 

What about Fortis? I got a fair amount of primaris units with my Dark Angels that can be repainted (mostly because they were my first models) in deathwatch colors? And if I do have 15 intercesors with hellblasters, making this ideal? I'll give the Impulsor a closer look tomorrow.

As in the past, one of the benefits of adding Hellblasters is to mitigate one of the biggest weaknesses of Hellblasters by adding ablative wounds with the Intercessors, all while making the blob Obsec as a bonus. You can also use it to make pseudo-Tactical squads out of Primaris units with the combat squad ability, netting you the option to throw a couple powerful plasma weapons into 5 man Intercessor units. The Impulsor would allow you to basically deploy these squads within Rapid Fire range of any high toughness target you wish to end, and since they're all obsec they also give you the mobility to challenge an objective whenever you wish.

 

The only real con is the loss of the Intercessor keyword when you make the unit a Fortis team, which locks you out of the Rapid Fire Stratagem from the main codex.

 

Ah yes, with the BS update, I can see what I can take or can't. Seeing how my rule is primaris only, then my options would be Fortis, Indomitus and Spectrus. Personally, I'd think the later two might be the better options, while Fortis taken as a cheaper option? What about their disciplines, which ones would you take, if at all?

When it comes to Specialisms, I usually think about what I want a unit to do and will select based on that. Just some examples based on the Primaris Kill Teams above...

 

Spectrus Kill Team with 5x Infiltrators (one Helix Adept), 1x Incursor, and 4x Elminators. This unit is then split into combat squads with two distinct roles, so Aquila feels like a good fit here. I honestly might not even use a Specialism here, to be honest.

 

Indomitor Kill Team with mostly anti-infantry firepower would be solid as both Furor (Troops) and Dominatus (Elite). A similar Kill Team mixing in Eradicators instead would be best as Malleus (Heavy Support) or Dominatus.

 

For Fortis, I'd say the Intercessor/Hellblaster unit would be best hunting Elite targets or flexing with Aquila. An Outrider focused unit planning to combat squad would benefit from Furor given the weapon profiles you're likely to be playing with here.

 

I'm leaning towards the Gravis Captain, mainly because with the Blackweave Shroud and the Librarian psychic ability, I can give him S6, T7, A7 (with shock assault). Plus he's a rare model, you don't see those around. This is probably a passing phase, but I look forward to the hilarity I can unleash with him. That Dominus Aegis relic looks pretty interesting as well, I need to give it some more thought. I'm frankly overwhelmed by all the options and customability deathwatch has, but I'm positively giddy with joy with finding out other options. With regards to SIA, I see that is now a stategem for bolt weapons, meaning intercessors can benefit from them, with stalker bolt rifles being the go-to option?

Him being rare is probably one of the best reasons to field him, so I'm with you there.

 

As for SIA on Primaris, it is a Stratagem, but it is pretty expensive at 2CP. Heavy bolt weapons that are already only 1 shot baseline are good choices for it, so just as you mentioned Stalker bolt rifles and the new heavy stalker equivalent.

 

The point I was trying to make is that the old school Deathwatch style that leaned heavily on SIA and mixed units is not what Primaris DW is all about. While you can certainly use SIA with them, it's super limited, expensive, and temporary. I don't think it make sense to really lean into that and instead of using Primaris for their own strengths.

 

Let's talk Relics for a moment. What are your thoughts on the Beacon Angelis, Blackweave Shroud, Purgatus and Eye of Abiding? I like all of them, but having a really hard time justifying taking any of those? Like I can see the Beacon being used with a mobile unit such as outriders, and with the list I provided below, having a captain with the obsec aura and the librarian with the shrouding spell/FNP spell, could ensure those outrider blobs stay on the board for a long time. The Blackweave Shroud is useful perhaps against Necrons (Ironic, because I have a game against a Necron player tommorow), and Purgatus/Eye of Abiding is awesome. What combos can you think of that might be worth considering?

Blackweave Shroud will be excellent against heavy psychich armies (or even those Necron C'Tan powers) that dish out extroardinary amounts of mortal wounds, while also not being particularly worthless when you aren't facing those types of forces. Durability enhancement makes certain that the force multiplication capabilities of a Captain are around for much longer. I think this is a good choice for a character you want to keep around as long as possible.

 

The Beacon Angelis is such a fantastic item, but lacks vectors for use for Primaris outside of things like Impulsors and the Bike Chaplain. It's a piece of kit that adds some amazing force multiplication potential, but you need to be able to get it into position. The amount of movement shenanigans you can achieve with this is just straight awesome, but Primaris have fewer good ways to leverage it compared to Firstborn.

 

Purgatorus, the bolt pistol, is a great alternative to a plasma pistol since it is cheaper and does more potential damage (even if it can't always wound as reliably), while being much safer. It's a fun pick, but I think given the powerful relics DW have this one will be a bit forgettable.

 

The Eye of Abiding is an interesting one. On something like a Watch Master, I am super enticed. But for a Primaris unit like a captain with power fist, or your Gravis guy, you'll be looking at a good way to maximize damage while also removing that baseline penalty to hit in melee. I like it, especially when considering how it behaves against invuln saves, but I won't really know for sure how it performs until I can get some practical experience with it.

 

 

Which them very nicely brings me to this point - what units for Deathwatch would be staples? Is this faction a case of having as much KT as you can, and add an apothecary to the mix, if points permit? With Outriders still getting ObSec, do you see a place for Hellblasters in Fortis teams, especially seeing how in the Indomitor Team you have eradicators that do a better job than plasma inceptors? I think I'm getting sold on the Impulsor idea though with your logic. Another question - is the Impulsor open topped, meaning units inside can fire?

 

I'll keep the above recommendations in mind, cheers! With Fortis, wouldn't you say Venator would be a better choice, because of the High S and AP? Also, regarding the rules and death-watch re-rolls would I be correct in interpreting it, as in against that type of unit <let's assume Venator> re-roll ones, but if they are Xenos Heavies, then re-roll all failed wounds? 

 

I had a game against a Necron player using SIA stragem on my Aggressors (as they wield bolt weapons) - less than impressed. As I'm primaris only, I presume I should forget about SIA?   

 

With relics - That Blackweave Shroud is absolute, irrevocably AMAZING. That Gravis Captain wasn't dying at all with him, against the MW output necrons had. I'm not sure whether 

it is justified always spending 1CP on giving him that relic, but god, with T6, so good. With the Beacon, another very good choice, would you say a Warlord with the Rites of War WL trait

would benefit more from it, then a chief apothecary with that beacon? Purgatus while awesome, but I don't see it being more useful than Blackweave. The eye on the other hand, I'm scratching my brain trying to get the most out of it - what other combos do you see with it?

Edited November 12, 2020 by Skywrath

[Skywrath]

Any takers?