Crusade and "Master" level Characters

[Berzul]

Hey everyone.

 

So, quick question...

 

In Crusade, the Codex Space Marines gives a Requisition that, for 1 point, when a character reaches heroic or legendary level, they can take the "Master of..." level upgrade that the codex has for matched play. So, a Captain can become Chapter Master, a Techmarine a Master of the Forge, etc.

 

My question is, when taking a unit for the first time into an Order of Battle, could you just give them said upgrade outright? By increasing the Power Levels accordingly? Or must you first introduce them as a regular marine, and level them up to heroic before being able to upgrade them, and to do it through the requisition?

[BluejayJunior]

You have to level them up and spend the requisition point for it. On page 98, it says that to include one you use that requisition. 

[Berzul]

But, the requistion says you CAN upgrade them if they are not yet upgraded. Is there something in the rules against just, bringing them upgraded? Since it is not an upgrade you pay CP for, but rather just more Power Levels or Matched Points for, do you need to pay a requisition to take it?

 

As I saw it, you have 2 types of upgrades. Stratagem Upgrades and these "Master" upgrades. The first cost CP the others increase points or levels cost.

 

There is a requisition that says that when you bring in a unit that CAN be upgraded via a stratagem, you can pay 1 RP and make that upgrade permanent.

But, couldn't you just use the stratagem in a battle, and get the upgrade for that one battle through CP?

 

There is a requisition that says you can make a character a master of his role for 1 RP when they reach heroic level or higher.

But, couldn't you just bring them into the Order of Battle at the flat cost of extra Power Levels from the start?

 

I kinda read this whole thing as a way to get a unit in at their base cost (since Orders of Battle start with few power levels available), with the option to add the upgrades later.

But, if you have the Power Levels already, couldn't you just add the improved unit?

 

If not, that in essence would mean that you could not add a Chapter Master for your successor chapter, for instance, unless you get over 31 points of experience with the captain first.

At the same time, chapters that HAVE a chapter master named character, could add said chapter master right off the bat, before the first battle even happens.

 

Wouldn't this then mean an imbalance between rules, where one Chapter can bring a Chapter Master at the start, but a successor has to wait over 10 battles before they can do so?

[Berzul]

wait, no, its there... I went back to the book and found the rule. It says so on page 98 of the codex, at the end of the left column of text.

 

A Crusade force cannot start with any upgraded Character units - to include one in a Crusade force, you must use the Chapter Command Requisition (pg 116).

[Berzul]

But... It says your force cannot START with any upgraded characters.

 

If you make a force, play some games, and THEN add a Captain, could you add him with the upgrade?

 

He is not being upgraded "when you start your force"...

[Tyriks]

No, as BluejayJunior said, it says "to include one [of the Chapter Command characters] you must use the Chapter Command Requisition."  Emphasis mine.  So the only way to include one is to use the aforementioned requisition, which can only ever be used upon gaining Heroic or Legendary rank.  It doesn't matter how old your roster is because it clearly states that this is the only way to include one.

[Berzul]

Thanks, guys. Clears the point.

[BluejayJunior]

 

 

There is a requisition that says that when you bring in a unit that CAN be upgraded via a stratagem, you can pay 1 RP and make that upgrade permanent.

But, couldn't you just use the stratagem in a battle, and get the upgrade for that one battle through CP?

 

 

I believe the rules for Crusade say that you cannot use stratagems that would give your army extra relics, warlord traits, etc. The only way to use them is to pay RP for them. 

 

 

 

 

If not, that in essence would mean that you could not add a Chapter Master for your successor chapter, for instance, unless you get over 31 points of experience with the captain first.

At the same time, chapters that HAVE a chapter master named character, could add said chapter master right off the bat, before the first battle even happens.

 

Wouldn't this then mean an imbalance between rules, where one Chapter can bring a Chapter Master at the start, but a successor has to wait over 10 battles before they can do so?

Narratively, he could still be the chapter master, he just wouldn't have that upgrade yet. 

Crusade isn't necessarily supposed to be perfectly balanced. So yes, Blood Angels could start a crusade with Dante, while a successor wouldn't have access to the chapter master upgrade for some time. But named characters also do not get experience, so will never get better. While a generic captain will get upgrades, battle honors, a pick of relic and WL trait. I have no problem with that. But I also have almost no interest in using named characters in Crusade. I want the experience of growing and evolving my crusade force.

[Berzul]

Yeah, I'm not using any, either. The whole point for me is to build your own.

[Arkangilos]

I think if you had a reasonable opponent you could work something out.

 

I wouldn't have a problem with you doing that if we balanced it out somewhere.

[Gloomfoe]

Idk, seems to me you wouldn't be able to bring dante. Unless his chapter master ability doesn't count as an "upgrade" because it's built in

[BluejayJunior]

Idk, seems to me you wouldn't be able to bring dante. Unless his chapter master ability doesn't count as an "upgrade" because it's built in

It doesn't count as an upgrade, because it isn't one. There are no rules limiting bringing named characters, even chapter masters or primarchs. They just don't gain experience.

[ThePenitentOne]

The key here is that Master upgrades require you to be Heroic before they can be purchased. Since there is no way to start with enough experience that you can be Heroic, there is no way to purchase this upgrade at the beginning of its inclusion in your order of battle. Other rules discussed above may also prevent you from doing it, but this was the one that seemed the simplest to understand and apply.

 

Some units have an upgrade you can purchase which lets them start out one Primaris unit start out Blooded, but there's nothing that lets any unit start the Crusade as Heroic (at least not yet- though I doubt there ever will be- anything beyond Blooded would almost defeat the purpose of playing Crusade).

 

A similarquestion came up in perusal of the DW supplement; you can give a Battle-Hardened unit a Specialism; unfortunately (depending upon your point of view), the Veterans of the Indomitus Crusade requisitioned mentioned above only gets me to Blooded, not Battle Hardened, so if I want to start with a speicalism, I have to pay the PL. I opted not to- it won't take me long to earn enough XP to hit Battle Hardened if I start blooded.

 

For the Master though, if you want to include one any time soon, because it will take longer to earn enough XP to become Heroic than it will take my Fortis Team to hit Battle Hardened. At entry, you'd be better off burning the Req for your WL trait or your Relic.