Jonathan Sleigh-Johnson’s 1st place RTT w/ RG Successors

[Alcyon]

Very exciting to see this come up in Goonhammer's excellent Competitive Innovations in 9th series: https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-vasteras-autumn-bash/

 

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium – Adeptus Astartes – Raven Guard) [97 PL, -3CP, 2000pts] ++

 

+ Configuration +

 

**Chapter Selection**: Born Heroes, Raven Guard Successor, Whirlwind of Rage

 

+ HQ [13 PL, -2CP, 280pts] +

 

Captain [6 PL, -1CP, 140pts]: Jump Pack [1 PL, 25pts], Master of Ambush, Storm shield [10pts], Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter [-1CP], Thunder hammer [20pts]

 

Primaris Chaplain on Bike [7 PL, -1CP, 150pts]: Exhortation of Rage, Canticle of Hate (Aura), Chapter Command: Master of Sanctity [1 PL, 35pts], Litany of Hate, Rites of War, Stratagem: Master of the Trifold Path [-1CP], Swift and Deadly, Swift as the Raven, Warlord

 

+ Troops [5 PL, 305pts] +

 

Incursor Squad [5 PL, 105pts] . 4x Incursor [84pts]: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Occulus bolt carbine, 4x Paired combat blades

. Incursor Sergeant [21pts]

 

Incursor Squad [5 PL, 105pts] . 4x Incursor [84pts]: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Occulus bolt carbine, 4x Paired combat blades

. Incursor Sergeant [21pts]

 

Assault Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 95pts] . 4x Assault Intercessor [76pts]: 4x Astartes Chainsword, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Heavy Bolt Pistol

. Assault Intercessor Sgt [19pts]: Astartes Chainsword, Heavy Bolt Pistol

 

+ Elites [39 PL, -1CP, 765pts] +

 

Bladeguard Veteran Squad [10 PL, 175pts] . 4x Bladeguard Veteran [140pts]: 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Heavy Bolt Pistol, 4x Master-crafted Power Sword, 4x Storm Shield

. Bladeguard Veteran Sgt [35pts]: Heavy Bolt Pistol

 

Bladeguard Veteran Squad [10 PL, 175pts] . 4x Bladeguard Veteran [140pts]: 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Heavy Bolt Pistol, 4x Master-crafted Power Sword, 4x Storm Shield

. Bladeguard Veteran Sgt [35pts]: Heavy Bolt Pistol

 

Primaris Apothecary [5 PL, -1CP, 105pts]: Chapter Command: Chief Apothecary [1 PL, 25pts], Selfless Healer, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter, The Vox Espiritum, [-1CP]

 

Vanguard Veteran Squad [14 PL, 320pts]: Jump Pack [2 PL, 20pts]
Space Marine Veteran [26pts]: Lightning Claw [3pts], Storm shield [4pts]

Space Marine Veteran [26pts]: Lightning Claw [3pts], Storm shield [4pts] 
Space Marine Veteran [31pts]: Power fist [8pts], Storm shield [4pts]
Space Marine Veteran [31pts]: Power fist [8pts], Storm shield [4pts]
Space Marine Veteran [31pts]: Power fist [8pts], Storm shield [4pts]
Space Marine Veteran [31pts]: Power fist [8pts], Storm shield [4pts]
Space Marine Veteran [31pts]: Power fist [8pts], Storm shield [4pts]
Space Marine Veteran [31pts]: Power fist [8pts], Storm shield [4pts]
Space Marine Veteran [31pts]: Power fist [8pts], Storm shield [4pts] 
Veteran Sergeant [31pts]: Power fist [8pts], Storm shield [4pts]

 

+ Fast Attack [24 PL, 500pts] +

 

Inceptor Squad [12 PL, 250pts]: 4x Inceptor [160pts], Inceptor Sergeant [40pts], Plasma Exterminator x2 [50pts]

 

Inceptor Squad [12 PL, 250pts]: 4x Inceptor [160pts], Inceptor Sergeant [40pts], Plasma Exterminator x2 [50pts]

 

+ Heavy Support [6 PL, 130pts] +

 

Eradicator Squad [6 PL, 130pts]: Melta rifle

. Eradicator [40pts] . Eradicator Sgt [40pts] . Eradicator with MM [50pts]: Multi-melta [10pts]

 

[97 PL, 9CP, 2000pts]

 

Now note this was only a 40 player RTT with 5 rounds in Sweden, but from my memory this i the first time I've seen an RG list on a top table since the nerf to Centurions. But I'd like to celebrate it as I think it's thematic and fluffy and plays to the strengths of the RG supplement, specifically warlord traits and stratagems.

 

Like One Wing says, the Bladeguard or VVs can use MoA with the Captain, a second combat unit can use SftS and Raven's Blade to make a re-rollable 7" charge with the Chaplain's litany, and the Eradicators can drop down with SftS as well just like the Inceptors can naturally.

 

Born Heroes and Whirlwind of Rage work directly on 8/12 units in the army since all the Troops choices are solid in combat. I've been tempted to try Duellists but as the Goonhammer guys note the restriction of only working against infantry and bikes really hurts its utility. I think Tactical Withdrawal or Hungry for Battle are also fairly strong options but the former can be delivered with the RG-specific litany, and the latter is a nonbo with the Chaplain's Canticle.

 

Inceptors make a lot of sense here, not only being one of the most undercosted/pushed units in the codex now but also being a deep-strike threat that can keep up with the army. If they can get near the Captain their overcharge is actually usable especially against big units. 

 

Incursors also a big pick here, I've been leaning towards Infiltrators because they help zone out your DZ, but this list is all about pressure and I don't think anything in the army is going to be hanging out in the backline. Accordingly running a Troops choice with -1 AP weapons and Concealed Positions makes total sense, and they really benefit from the CTs. Note probably no Haywire Mines - these guys are making the charges, not being charged.

 

My major questions are:

• how does the Apothecary reposition and get into range of the assault troops with his aura, big as it is? I suppose the Assault Intercessors might be his retinue?
• how many of these units come in from reserve?
• what secondaries did he pick and how'd he decide?

What do you think of this list? Any influence on how you'll play your RG?

[tentagil]

My list is a bit different, partially because its much smaller at this point, but I'm leaning in a similar direction. Pure infantry, lots of units with concealed position so I can have a lot of objective/board control right from the start, and then Vanguard Vets and Inceptors ready to Deep Strike to be where I need them when I need them. I play much more narrative games though, so not necessarily going for a super competitive list. And I'm trying to avoid most of the foot slogging gravis types. I have a three man Aggressor Squad at the moment, which I think still has potential, though they did get hit a bit hard with the nerf bat. Most of my planned purchases are looking at Phobos and Jump Pack based stuff.

[Alcyon]

My own list is much more mid-board focused and involves a lot of shootier units as I locked in Stealthy and Bolter Fusillades at the start of the crusade campaign I'm in (which began pre-new codex.) I'm still running Aggressors with MoA and have just added a Bike Chaplain but I've got Hellblasters over Inceptors, Infiltrators over Incursors and an Invictor over VVs/BGV. I like my list despite its flaws and I think it's got merit but it's nice to see the RG supplement used to build such a heavy pressure list that doesn't look totally cookie-cutter like they did back in 8th.

[tentagil]

My own list is much more mid-board focused and involves a lot of shootier units as I locked in Stealthy and Bolter Fusillades at the start of the crusade campaign I'm in (which began pre-new codex.) I'm still running Aggressors with MoA and have just added a Bike Chaplain but I've got Hellblasters over Inceptors, Infiltrators over Incursors and an Invictor over VVs/BGV. I like my list despite its flaws and I think it's got merit but it's nice to see the RG supplement used to build such a heavy pressure list that doesn't look totally cookie-cutter like they did back in 8th.

I have an Invictor I haven't had a chance to run yet, very excited to see what it can do. I play Orks as my other army, I like Raven Guard because its a finesse army that lets me play very differently then charging 100+ boyz, Kanz, and Dreads across the table.

[Dracos]

My major questions are:

• how does the Apothecary reposition and get into range of the assault troops with his aura, big as it is? I suppose the Assault Intercessors might be his retinue?
• how many of these units come in from reserve?
• what secondaries did he pick and how'd he decide?

What do you think of this list? Any influence on how you'll play your RG?

 

The Apothecary might run with Assault Intercessors but BladeGuard is more likely

 

Eradicators, Inceptors and Vanguard look like they're just under a 1000 and the PL fit for Reserves.

 

Engage on All Fronts, Deploy Scramblers, and opponent/mission specific are my guesses

 

List works a lot like mine is planned to work but those Vanguard give it a real melee kick my Aggressors can't match. That double unit of Plasma Inceptors is nasty business also. I've decided to go with Eradicators striking from the shadows but this is probably a better choice. Honestly hope it becomes more popular. Should take some heat off of our Eradicators being "OP" talk. 

 

It's a good list but imo it is going to get bogged when it runs into a true horde army.

 

 

I'm not up on the Look Out Sir Rule and bikes. It looks to me like nothing in the army keeps the Chaplain from being targeted besides being in melee.

[Alcyon]

The Apothecary might run with Assault Intercessors but BladeGuard is more likely

 

It's a good list but imo it is going to get bogged when it runs into a true horde army.

 

I'm not up on the Look Out Sir Rule and bikes. It looks to me like nothing in the army keeps the Chaplain from being targeted besides being in melee.

 

Assuming the BGV aren't reserved, but yeah. Hard to imagine using SftS for a single character for 1 CP or on the Assault Intercessors so I figured they're walking, I suppose Strategic Reserves is possible too but much harder to engineer a charge out of.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the Blast Inceptors and the pile of Str 4 attacks in the Troops section can handily deal with hordes.

 

I don't think Bikes are any unique unit type other than being a codex keyword, no indication to my eyes that Look Out, Sir works any differently for bike characters. I think he's happily screened by any 3-model unit like anything else, no?

[Dracos]

In the right list I'd use a CP for a Primaris MoS Chappie in a heartbeat. I could see doing the same with the Apothecary but for 100 points I'd rather just have 2 more Plasma Inceptors. I night change my mind on that eventually but I'm not a fan of characters if I don't have to have them (its a quirk).

 

Honestly I've been to lazy to look into the Outrider Chaplain after trading my Outriders for more Bladeguard and Eradicators. I still think its a cool model and if he can "hide" with the Inceptors I'll likely pick him up just for the cool factor in fun games even if he doesnt make my tournament cut. I could see him replacing Shrike in my list actually. In which case I would start looking harder at Successor Traits again.

[sultansean]

I am super pumped on the list and it has me really excited to play a RG Successor. 

 

I'm making a few different model/tech choices but a very similar idea. 

 

I really like Whirlwind of Rage and Tactical Withdrawl as traits to stay mobile once your army gets stuck in to combat. 

I'm also planning on running heavy eradicators, i'm imagining starting on the board so that they are a target for master of ambush depending on the terrain and the opponent. 

The main change would in my list  be dropping an inceptor squad for an outrider squad and a whirlwind. I just think the suppressive fire start is huge when you are facing another combat army. 

[ShinyRhino]

So, it looks like the list is driven by the successor traits. Does this list fare even close to the same using actual Raven Guard tactics?

[Alcyon]

I don't think so. Losing Whirlwind of Rage maybe isn't that big of a loss but not having +1 to hit on the charge is a big drawback, and on the other side, the RG CT grants basically no benefit to this list. Even the Inceptors only have an 18" range and the Eradicators want to be within 12", so they'll rarely be benefitting from the Light Cover bonus or standing in cover to benefit from -1 to hit. The Incursors already have access to the smokescreen strat to protect them when they aren't in combat, if that ever happens.

 

Because of the 9th edition focus on objectives and the fact that combat units can more easily contest and seize objectives, I think shooting-focused lists (which is what the RG CT encourages) are going to struggle generally. Doesn't at all surprise me to see someone competing with this type of build and I think it goes to show that the WLTs and Stratagems are better than the CT.

[sultansean]

Yeah I think it's an entirely different build, than you would do as Raven Guard. 

Although most marine  units are good enough that being Raven Guard they are still good. 

 

Mathematically Whirlwind of Rage and Born Heroes have the same result of like 17% more hits. And whirlwind of rage is active not only when you charge. 

Stacked together you are really pushing the damage out. 

 

[Alcyon]

I actually managed to get in touch with Jonathan today and ask him a few questions about the list; he's given me permission to share.

 

Me: "I’d love to know how you deployed the Apothecary, Assault Intercessors and Bladeguard without Impulsors - you didn’t find it too hard to get them into combat? Did you ever overcharge the Inceptors/how did you get them in re-roll range of the Captain? And what made you land on Incursors - did you go for a turn 1 charge with them when you won the roll? I would love to know what secondaries you tended to pick and just generally how you set up and what your plan was going into games."

 

JSJ: "So Incursors are there first as a way to pushback other ppl scouting units. So when I use Infiltrators and Master of Ambush I can go where I want. Late game they can Guerilla Tactics to steal objectives and do actions.

 

I use the Infiltrators strategem to move between 3-4 (Bladeguard and Inceptors) units pre-game almost always. If I go first it's to get Inceptors into shooting position. If I go second I get everything into a central ruin if possible. Captain redeploys near where the Inceptors moved to to give re-rolls. Assault Intercessors just hold backfield.

Secondaries that work are Deploy Scramblers, Raise the Banners, Oath of Moment, Engage on All Fronts, Domination on odd number of objectives missions."

 

Me: "Why Assault Intercessors if they’re just holding backfield?"

 

"'cause they are 5 pts less   and they do still get into combat sometimes so it's not a complete waste."

 

Me: "Do you use Infiltrators to move the Apothecary up too? 1 cp for 1 character seems like a lot."

 

"No he can just run at the start of t1. If there is absolutely no way I can keep him safe otherwise I might but I haven't needed to yet."
 

Me: "Gotcha. so you aren't really going for t1 charges just getting the Bladeguard and Vanguards onto objectives turn 1 or into a central ruin?"

 

"Well hopefully the threat of t1 makes them screen it out. If they don't then yeah send in the Vanguard. But mostly its board control yeah."

 

He also noted he was recently on the WTC podcast so I'll be giving that a listen too!

Edited November 13, 2020 by Alcyon

[Dracos]

Nice. Pretty much follows with much of how I feel any list like this needs to be ran.

 

I admit I’m cautiously interested in the use of Assault Intercessors as a backfield unit. Points are hard to come buy for Primaris builds.

 

I don’t like the Successor Tactics. You give up too much hoping for the roll of a 6 and an opponent who positions badly. Shrike is too good to give up if you’re running Inceptors, especially plasma.

 

 

I’ve had good success with RG in 9e for two reasons I believe.

 

Infiltrators and Strike from the Shadows.

 

We might not have the cool toys and always on abilities out 4 famous brethren do but we’re a turn ahead in the game most the time if we are playing our army right. In 9e that gives us a fighting chance against most anyone.

 

(Those Slaanesh monster list are scary as beep)

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

I don't want to de-rail the thread too much away from Jon's list (and its a good'un), but I will say this regarding the RG vs Successor debate:

 

One thing most competitive players will tell you, regardless of the game, is this: They prefer options that give the element of choice to themselves, rather than their opponent.

 

Born Heroes & Whirlwind of Rage place the control firmly in the pilots hands. Your opponent can do virtually nothing to avoid the efficacy of those tools. Shadow Masters places control firmly in your opponents hands. If they want to counter it (and have the tools to do so) they can, and will. If the effects of the CT don't bother them, they can opt to ignore it as well, at their own peril. When competing, you generally want to minimize the choices you give your opponent and maximize your own. When you give give your opponent a choice, you want it to be very difficult - ideally so difficult that it will provoke a mistake.

 

I do agree with you on Shrike though. For now I feel he is an economical choice for a Chapter Master, so that's still a good plus for playing as stock-standard RG.

[Dracos]

I generally agree with you on, you want to take choices out of your opponents hand and keep them in your own.

 

That said, I also have a long standing aversion to trying to get any effect out of the dice that have a 16% chance of happening. I am not a fan of Duelist and Whirlwind for this reason. I would like Hungry for Battle but I don’t think they are allowed to stack with other similar effects. (I could be wrong there) 16% in melee especially is bad as there aren’t enough dice (imo) thrown from any one particular unit to entice me to build an army around it ... and I’m very much into upping the (Primaris) Raven Guard melee threat.

 

It’s a good list. I just think it plays better with Shrike. :)

[Alcyon]

I think Duellist is bad solely because it only works on bikes and infantry, and a big benefit of auto-wounding on 6s to hit is being able to get something Str 4 to deal damage more consistently to T5 and above, especially if you're throwing the unit into harder targets because you already have something like a PF on the sergeant. 

 

I also think it's important to look at the statistical impact of exploding 6s in comparison to other abilities so it doesn't just seem like a 16% chance. When you think about it, going from WS 4 to WS 3 is an improvement of 16% because the chances of every roll succeeding go up by one side of the die. So mathematically exploding 6s is basically +1 WS - not as good as re-rolls usually (at least not full re-rolls) but certainly an improvement. I think Whirlwind of Rage is unequivocally one of the two best combat successor traits alongside Born Heroes, which only works on the charge but offers +1 to hit. 

 

Shrike is a great option to have but frankly I think the price of the CT makes him not worth it, especially because his re-roll all ability is wasted on Plasmaceptors which can scarcely afford to re-roll all. Remember the Goonhammer chart; re-roll all takes your risk of dying on a 1 from 52% on 2d3 (and 67% on a full 6 shots with blast) to 20% and 29% respectively, versus 11% and 20% for re-roll 1s. A regular JP Captain with a TH+SS is the same price as you can see from the list above and doesn't come with Shadow Masters.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

Shrike is a great option to have but frankly I think the price of the CT makes him not worth it, especially because his re-roll all ability is wasted on Plasmaceptors which can scarcely afford to re-roll all. Remember the Goonhammer chart; re-roll all takes your risk of dying on a 1 from 52% on 2d3 (and 67% on a full 6 shots with blast) to 20% and 29% respectively, versus 11% and 20% for re-roll 1s. A regular JP Captain with a TH+SS is the same price as you can see from the list above and doesn't come with Shadow Masters.

 

IIRC it is a may effect, so you can elect not to re-roll the 2s. This will reduce the risk of overheat substantially at a cost to performance. Chapter Master should never be worse than a Captain re-roll unless for you to elect to do so for the increased output, should you deem necessary. For the same reason you can use Chapter Master to re-roll hits to fish for 6s, and use it to re-roll dice that are effected by modifiers.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

I think Duellist is bad solely because it only works on bikes and infantry, and a big benefit of auto-wounding on 6s to hit is being able to get something Str 4 to deal damage more consistently to T5 and above, especially if you're throwing the unit into harder targets because you already have something like a PF on the sergeant. 

 

I also think it's important to look at the statistical impact of exploding 6s in comparison to other abilities so it doesn't just seem like a 16% chance. When you think about it, going from WS 4 to WS 3 is an improvement of 16% because the chances of every roll succeeding go up by one side of the die. So mathematically exploding 6s is basically +1 WS - not as good as re-rolls usually (at least not full re-rolls) but certainly an improvement. I think Whirlwind of Rage is unequivocally one of the two best combat successor traits alongside Born Heroes, which only works on the charge but offers +1 to hit. 

 

Agreed. I think it's also worth mentioning that when you have units like the Vanguard Veteran bomb, the +1 to hit of Born Heros becomes a significant boost in output when weighed against the -1 hit penalty of the Power Fist. Its effectively a 33% increase in output. (Not counting Whirlwind on top)

 

Edit: oops I thought the board would auto-append my double-reply. Oh well!

Edited November 13, 2020 by Shadow Captain Vyper

[Dracos]

I though Born Heroes only effected characters?

 

You’ve convinced me on Whirlwind. I actually am teaching math for middle school this week and used this for out fraction exercises this week. :)

 

I’m still not sure it’s worth giving up Shrike and RG CT I’ve been getting use out of in actual games but it’s pushing me to look and try it once I get the Bladeguard table ready.

 

I also see why he went with Assault Intercessors given these choices for CT. I rarely get any real range work out of Intercessors. I usually charge after rapid firing. With AIs it’s a wash of sorts and cheaper.

[Alcyon]

 

IIRC it is a may effect, so you can elect not to re-roll the 2s. This will reduce the risk of overheat substantially at a cost to performance. Chapter Master should never be worse than a Captain re-roll unless for you to elect to do so for the increased output, should you deem necessary. For the same reason you can use Chapter Master to re-roll hits to fish for 6s, and use it to re-roll dice that are effected by modifiers.

 

You're right, I just mean the ability is wasted on Plasmaceptors specifically if you plan to overcharge them and just re-roll 1s - you are better off running a JP Captain with them instead of Shrike for the same cost and be able to access Successor CTs.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Born heroes affects all models as long as those models charged.

[Dracos]

BattleScribe needs fixed on a few things then and I need to read my codex more. Thanks. :)