Playing without Stratagems?

[Valkyrion]

Following on from the 'tournament' thread and reading the 'direction' thread, I wondered if it was possible to play without using any stratagems at all?

 

I mean, I know it's possible, but is it feasible? 

 

I didn't play much in 8th so the stratagem system is pretty new to me and I find it easy to forget.

 

If no one has stratagems then it remains fair, right? Or do some armies simply need their stratagems to be even halfway effective? 

 

The group you play with would have to be acquiescent too, but from a system point of view would the removal of stratagems utterly change the game?

[Black Knight]

Strategems are such an integral part of all the armies now with it becoming more so every time a new codex comes out in 9th(9th edition codexes are making armies more reliable on strategems to work). You could definitely play the game without them but some armies will be completely neutered and it will take some serious balancing of the armies played to make it fair. Some armies would loose some of the very tools that give them their play style(E.g Deathwatch's new codex last week put a huge amount of all the abilities of the units into strategems instead of on the datasheets.)

 

It will be on an army by army basis but you loose a lot of the flavour of the game without them. I personally do not like the direction of making everything a strategem but I still choose them over none at all.

Edited November 5, 2020 by Black_Knight

[Dark Shepherd]

This came up before but to me itd be like playing without the psychic phase or relics or warlord traits

 

Going by marine/wolves codex/supplement strategems have been toned down

[Charlo]

The only time i'd play without stratagems is when teaching new players and even then it would only be for a couple of games...

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I don't think 9th edition would work well without stratagems. They've used cp penalties to reign in detachments, and alot of the unit/army special abilities have become stratagems. Edited November 5, 2020 by Jorin Helm-splitter

[Dr. Clock]

This could work with some armies, but less conventional forces like Genecult will struggle mightily, so in general I'd advise to learn the game by playing it as intended. This will make it less of an adjustment overall; you'll get the difficult part out of the way off the bat instead of in a few months.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

[N1SB]

 

I wondered if it was possible to play without using any stratagems at all?

 

I didn't play much in 8th so the stratagem system is pretty new to me and I find it easy to forget.

 

If no one has stratagems then it remains fair, right? Or do some armies simply need their stratagems to be even halfway effective? 

 

The group you play with would have to be acquiescent too, but from a system point of view would the removal of stratagems utterly change the game?

 

Hey Brother Valkyrion,

 

I think the question behind your questions is, do I have to learn how to use Stratagems?  It can be easy to forget, but I myself simplify to this, the Stratagems I need are:

• Re-rolls: that is technically a Stratagem, you probably used that
• 1 or 2 key faction-defining Stratagems, for example people choose to be a Raven Guard or its Successor just to use the give-an-unit-Infiltrate Stratagem.  Some of these are used before a battle, so you don't have to worry about forgetting during the course of a game when you got a lot on your mind

That's easy to remember because it's just re-rolls and a Stratagem you'd include as part of your army list-building.  You may have all these Stratagems, but that doesn't mean you have memorise them all, you just the 1 or 2 you really like.  You don't use any more than that, which just means you got more re-rolls to mitigate risk with.

 

And the thing is I do think Stratagems are integral to the game now.  Just personally, I initially noticed this between Loyalist and Chaos armies, the Loyalist always seemed to be more Command Points-intensive as they are designed with more Stratagems in mind (which is why things like the Loyal 32 became popular).  Then certain armies like Dr. Clock pointed out with Genestealer Cult seemed designed around their Stratagems.  It's like factions are balanced not just by units and their points costs, but also with their Stratagems as part of a total package.  That's why I don't think it's a good idea to obligate an opponent to avoid Stratagems, as his faction might need them more than yours.

[WarriorFish]

It's feasible, as if both armies do it then it's a fair adjustment. As fair as it can be at least as not all Stratagem packs are made equal (it's a bit of a joke when I get my Daemon deck out...) - but on the other hand not all codices are made equal either.

 

Following on from that, different armies may like this more or less depending on how many of their rules have moved to them but it's the same point really. As a broad generalisation it'd be more like the pre-8th era games, but lesser for it as an incomplete package. One of the things Stratagems do well is offer some flexibility to you as a player and this makes for more interesting games and that's before you consider the fact they contain no small amount of an army's flavour now.

 

This reduction of the predictability and addition of choice really does make a difference to a game. So while it is possible, short of simplifying the game for learning or something there's not much argument for it such is their integration to the game. Once you get used to hooking out the cards you'll need/use in a game and get a few battles in you'll be on top of them before you know it

[mughi3]

During the first half of 8th it was possible,  everybody had the index and the same 3 strats. but now with so many unit special rules and even wargear being moved to strats there is no possible way to play 9th without them. 

 

When i play epic scale with 8th ed rules we are using early 8th so  i basically only use the re-rolls  for charge distances, the odd failed important save,  or damage roll etc... and the like. 

[Medjugorje]

A few armies dont need that much CPs while others are not playable.

 

The balance between factions include the power of stratagems. Like Black Templars are not that great in their core rules but they have a couple of great Stratagems which makes them close to other Marines.

 

Genestealer Cults are simply :cuss without their stratagems.

Edited November 10, 2020 by Dam13n
Do not dodge the swear filter.

[Azekai]

I say do it. Strats are lame. We went 7 editions without stratagems, there is nothing about them that is core, integral part of 40k. Yes, some abilities that were on datasheets got changed into stratagems, but the game is still very much playable without them. Release 8th had only a few stratagems and it was fine.

 

Bad strats get ignored, while the best stratagems tend to push good units into the top tier. Any strat that allows you to double tap or fight twice is automatically god, since it makes your units twice as good.

 

If you are just learning the game, doing it with restricted or zero stratagems is fine. Once you get the basics down, you can start to learn the myriad strategems. Or not play with them at all, since they aren't reflected in points costs and are hella imbalanced, both internally and externally.

A few armies dont need that much CPs while others are not playable.

 

The balance between factions include the power of stratagems. Like Black Templars are not that great in their core rules but they have a couple of great Stratagems which makes them close to other Marines.

 

Genestealer Cults are simply :cuss without their stratagems.

Genestealer cults already get shut down by the fact that marines can and do shut down their strats... at least, the deepstrike/ambush ones. The ones that matter for the all important cult alphastrike. Edited November 11, 2020 by Azekai

[ThePenitentOne]

Once you've built an army, you pick your 5 or 6 faves. I put them on separate cards so I don't need to reference the book.

 

When it comes to genericsI don't bother with reroll strats- lots of auras for that. Overwatch though... That sucker is a must. Especially once the miracle dice pool has built up a bit. Cut them down can be nice too.

 

I personally like strats, and I have about 10 that I've written out on cards. Sisters have a lot of good ones.

[UnkyHamHam]

Once you've built an army, you pick your 5 or 6 faves. I put them on separate cards so I don't need to reference the book.

 

When it comes to genericsI don't bother with reroll strats- lots of auras for that. Overwatch though... That sucker is a must. Especially once the miracle dice pool has built up a bit. Cut them down can be nice too.

 

I personally like strats, and I have about 10 that I've written out on cards. Sisters have a lot of good ones.

I feel like the command reroll strat is definitely used more for rerolling failed saves at critical moments, or for boosting damage potential on damage (d6) weapons.

 

I've never seen someone use it for hit or wound reroll. The amount of layers upon layers of rules, auras, and bonuses that give you those kind of rerolls are insane. Especially, for marines.

[Scammel]

I honestly don't think I will be returning to 40k as long as stratagems exist. I don't want to need a brain like the Mekon to remember umpteen-thousand combinations of completely invisible, game-changing tricks for each game, especially as someone who used to maybe get in a couple of games a year even before the Current Times. 8th pulled off a couple of wonders by re-inserting some much-needed simple, intuitive rules back into the system, but the game is now completely at odds with itself with the strong emphasis on stock, WYSIWYG profiles on the one hand and complete preponderance of model-less stratagems on the other.