+Liber's Purpose+

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

What is the purpose of Liber Astartes?

 

 

It's an interesting question these days. It used to be a place to work on your IA before submission to the Libraium. It used to be a place to come and gain critique for your work.

 

At least, for me.

 

For me it used to be a place that I could come and flex my narrative muscles. I never had one of my IA's finished to the point of submission to the Librarium, but I managed to put in the reps, writing, taking criticism and going back and re-writing things. Seeing things from other people's points of view and understanding where they may disagree with me and why, and whether it was valid to me or not. To me the work, the hard graft, that is far more interesting and fun to me. The conflict, the journey is more enjoyable than the destination.

 

To me the Liber used to be a clash of ideas, a place where you could discuss and at times argue your views on what the 40k setting would allow in terms of fan IA creation, and what others deem impossible.

 

Many were the threads, both of IA's and general discussion threads that debated certain ideas or methods used by individuals or set by the community as a whole. There was a clear consensus on what was generally the most logical way to go about things. Ideas such as the Training Cadre, how Gene-Seed does and does not affect the chapter and what it brings to an IA, Mechanicus ties, influence from the High Lords and so on were all not only developed but also discussed. While the ideas existed and were widely accepted, they were also often discussed and argued as to how they could be changed/not used with the right justification.

 

It used to be a death-knell for your IA if people started saying 'do what makes you happy', because they were done arguing or discussing their critiques of your chapter that you weren't willing to deal with. It meant a loss in terms of constructive criticism for your IA. These days it often seems to be the byline for the Liber, something I totally disagree with.

 

There were many flaws and criticisms to be levelled and the Old Liber and how the members here used to prosecute certain ideas with a very narrow minded dedication and I'll be right along with you in condemning the goose-stepping of certain ideas into what you 'need' to do with your own unique work.

 

On the other side of that same coin however, you need resistance to develop. Whether it's life in general, at the gym, painting your models or writing your own stories, resistance stimulates growth. You'll never get better at painting your models without getting more detailed models and using unfamiliar or harder techniques in exactly the same way that you'll never get any stronger at the gym if you don't add weight to your lifts or reps to your sets.

 

Want to lift better? Get someone to critique your form, shift your feet, widen your stance, watch the path of the bar, work on your fundamentals as well as advanced lifts. Same goes for shooting, martial arts, marathon running, swimming, singing, etc. You get the idea, you want to get better at something you train and train and train and train.

 

 

Talking of critique and criticism, lets think about taking something from a more life-threatening industry.

 

You look at any Law Enforcement, Military, Fire or EMS vocation. Take a good look at most of the procedures, processes and tactics that are used within them. The reason that most of them are due to mistakes being made, whether through ignorance or otherwise, that lead to death or injury.

 

Think about veteran Police Officer. Do you think they got there without making some mistakes? Not all criminals are caught, and many are caught too late. Did they focus on the wrong train of evidence, the wrong person? Did a suspect get away because you didn't spend enough time on the range with your weapon, or training BJJ to restrain him? Or did he simply out-run you because you didn't train hard enough on sprints with full kit on?

 

Do you think they get critiqued on their actions?

 

How many of the poor-bloody infantry do you think died storming buildings before the tactics in room-clearing were standardized and then refined? In this regard, it's actually still being developed today, which many people don't even realize. Decades down the track working with a system that 'works', the US Military is starting to look to the British style of CQB, which they took from the Israeli's, which is essentially 'slow and steady' vs 'explosive action' that the US currently uses.

 

The reason? The fact that instead of poorly trained insurgents the possibility of going up against a near-peer military is more and more likely than ever. A harder foe, a more challenging set of factors, resistance.

 

 

This is how I view the Liber, at least in terms of IA writing. Making IA's and custom chapters is essentially a form of story writing. You're telling the story of your chapter. Who they are, where they came from and how they became who and what they are now. Just like any good story whether it's written, on a screen or in a game, it has to suspend your disbelief and the best way of doing that is to be consistent within the rules of the universe it's written in. Instead of being viewed as a set of restrictions like a yoke around your neck, you need to be creative and see what you can write within that context. Those guidelines and restrictions create resistance, something which develops your creativity and ability to write more effectively and efficiently.

 

No it shouldn't be a battleground and it's not a place where the consequences can be life or death, but I do think people should be challenged.

 

 

Now I'm not singling anyone out or attacking anyone - not even a little - these are my thoughts and opinions in regards to myself and what I see and want. Nor am I bemoaning the state of the Liber, I'm not here to complain, whining solves nothing after all. More I want to get a read on the Liber, to ask the question and see what comes out of it. Am I out of touch? Am I a relic of a time that no longer exists? Am I waxing nostalgic with rose tinted glasses?

 

I may be unreasonable in a lot of ways, though I also don't think we can improve ourselves in a vacuum and that places like this are a gym for our writing ability. Otherwise this forum has no logical reason to exist, to me, otherwise I'll just write it on my PC, assume it's good enough or even brilliant in my own mind, print it out and be done with it.

 

 

 

So, that's my rant/essay on it. Do you agree? Do you disagree?

 

 

I've had this rattling around my head for a while and it's good to finally put pen to paper as it were. I hope no-one feels attacked or put upon here, I'm honestly not singling anything out, it's just something that's been on my mind over the last little while.

[TechCaptain]

I invite comments on any of Libers. Whether they be critiques or compliments its all fuel for improvement.

[Brother Argent]

You are preaching to the choir I feel, mate.  As a fellow relic of the past I sometimes wonder if the lack of activity here these days may be to do with the Liber having lost as clearly defined goal as it once had.  I know now we have the Tabula or whatever it is called (I forget, too tired to worry as I am sure you know what I am talking about) but it doesn't feel like getting there is the sign of quality and completion the Librarium was.

 

I know its an old attitude and its not the way things are now and if how it is now works then great.  I just wonder if it is working.  Still, I cant talk, as I hardly post in the Liber these days.  Heck I mostly just lurk on the whole site.  My days of being relevant are long past.

[Ace Debonair]

What is the purpose of Liber Astartes?

 

 

It's an interesting question these days. It used to be a place to work on your IA before submission to the Libraium. It used to be a place to come and gain critique for your work.

It's still the second of those things, It's just not as active as it used to be.

Lots of people were put off the hobby completely by the heavy-handed way Primaris marines ere brought in, and those of us who remain are still left puzzling out a lot of details that currently the official lore hasn't touched upon.

 

It's an awkward thing - Primaris marines and the new lore (for all the factions) that has come in their wake are, simply, too big to ignore. They're a galaxy-wide change to the status quo, and I think the dust is still settling from the shakeup. 

 

Of course, that's probably not the only reason the forum isn't as active as it once was "back in the day", but I suspect it's a big factor. It's harder to know what fits and "makes sense" in the 40k galaxy post Fall-of-Cadia, because a lot's changed and there's not much lore yet to really reflect the scope of the changes.

 

For me it used to be a place that I could come and flex my narrative muscles. I never had one of my IA's finished to the point of submission to the Librarium, but I managed to put in the reps, writing, taking criticism and going back and re-writing things. Seeing things from other people's points of view and understanding where they may disagree with me and why, and whether it was valid to me or not. To me the work, the hard graft, that is far more interesting and fun to me. The conflict, the journey is more enjoyable than the destination.

Hmm. I mean, I enjoyed that to a degree, and it certainly helped me improve as a writer.

 

But to my mind the destination was actually the important part. Without an end goal, the journey just drags on and on, and eventually becomes a chore with no payoff.

 

I'm actually super excited 'cause we have the Tabula Astartes, something I can submit my IAs to when they are finished.

...Thing is, I am a perfectionist by nature, so I pretty much want my stuff to be absolutely perfect before I submit it. Hence, no submissions yet.

 

To me the Liber used to be a clash of ideas, a place where you could discuss and at times argue your views on what the 40k setting would allow in terms of fan IA creation, and what others deem impossible.

It's still that.

Except the scope of what's possible in-setting has been widened a bit, for good or ill.

 

Many were the threads, both of IA's and general discussion threads that debated certain ideas or methods used by individuals or set by the community as a whole. There was a clear consensus on what was generally the most logical way to go about things. Ideas such as the Training Cadre, how Gene-Seed does and does not affect the chapter and what it brings to an IA, Mechanicus ties, influence from the High Lords and so on were all not only developed but also discussed. While the ideas existed and were widely accepted, they were also often discussed and argued as to how they could be changed/not used with the right justification.

And then everything changed when the fire nation attacked Games Workshop themselves started changing the lore drastically. Suddenly there were, lore-wise, a LOT of questions with no answers. We don't know if Ultima Founding Chapters would necessarily use the same training cadres, or what - if any - influence the High Lords or Mechanicus (outside of Cawl) had on them.

 

Worse, with the lore for Primaris growing and growing, there's not much point trying to figure these things out ourselves yet. Invariably we'd come up with something clever and awesome that would be overturned with one sloppily worded sentence thrown away casually in a codex or novel.

 

It used to be a death-knell for your IA if people started saying 'do what makes you happy', because they were done arguing or discussing their critiques of your chapter that you weren't willing to deal with. It meant a loss in terms of constructive criticism for your IA. These days it often seems to be the byline for the Liber, something I totally disagree with.

...You disagree with people's happiness?

 

In seriousness, I hear you on this. It's probably worthwhile saying in your IAs that you want people to be as picky as possible, so you can double down on improvements and making the gains, to continue your weight-lifting metaphor for earlier.

 

There were many flaws and criticisms to be levelled and the Old Liber and how the members here used to prosecute certain ideas with a very narrow minded dedication and I'll be right along with you in condemning the goose-stepping of certain ideas into what you 'need' to do with your own unique work.

Absolute truth.

I was probably as bad as any of us, although I always tried to be polite about it.

 

On the other side of that same coin however, you need resistance to develop. Whether it's life in general, at the gym, painting your models or writing your own stories, resistance stimulates growth. You'll never get better at painting your models without getting more detailed models and using unfamiliar or harder techniques in exactly the same way that you'll never get any stronger at the gym if you don't add weight to your lifts or reps to your sets.

Also truth.

There's a middle ground between "do exactly as we tell you" and "do whatever" that can be difficult to walk.

Also a lot of C&C naturally comes across harsher in cold, emotionless text format, where it's harder to pick up someone's enthusiasm for your work.

 

Talking of critique and criticism, lets think about taking something from a more life-threatening industry.

Aaaand here you lost me. The best I can get from the following is that the Liber should be a battle against equally skilled opponents, so we all need to get training?

 

This is how I view the Liber, at least in terms of IA writing. Making IA's and custom chapters is essentially a form of story writing. You're telling the story of your chapter. Who they are, where they came from and how they became who and what they are now. Just like any good story whether it's written, on a screen or in a game, it has to suspend your disbelief and the best way of doing that is to be consistent within the rules of the universe it's written in. Instead of being viewed as a set of restrictions like a yoke around your neck, you need to be creative and see what you can write within that context. Those guidelines and restrictions create resistance, something which develops your creativity and ability to write more effectively and efficiently.

I agree with everything you just said.

But at the risk of sounding like a broken record, there's been precious little consistency with the rules of the universe in the official lore of late. The Eldar have a new God, Space Marines got bigger and easier to produce, Chaos is a large step closer to victory (and have apparently done diddly-squat since the fall of Cadia), the Silent King has come back - a lot of lore's changed in a couple of years. And probably will continue to change.

 

40k feels like it's changing from a setting to a story at this point.

 

No it shouldn't be a battleground and it's not a place where the consequences can be life or death, but I do think people should be challenged.

 

Oops, ignore my earlier comment about battles then.

 

I want to get a read on the Liber, to ask the question and see what comes out of it. Am I out of touch? Am I a relic of a time that no longer exists? Am I waxing nostalgic with rose tinted glasses?

In order: No; maybe (but so am I); and yes, but only a little ("many were the threads" made me roll my eyes - that's how I'd describe the WIP painting section, not the Liber in any age).

 

 

So, that's my rant/essay on it. Do you agree? Do you disagree?

Kind of?

I think a lot of what's missing from the Liber is reflective of how there's a lot of the nitty-gritty details missing from recent lore. It's all been big picture, glossed over stuff, which is fine, but we thrive in the details and there's been precious few of them. Do Ultima Chapters still have scout companies? Do they still progress through devastator/assault/tactical stuff in the reserve companies? Do reserve the companies even retain their specialisations? This sort of close-look detail is the soil from which a framework for "standard" primaris Chapters - and what we as DIYers can do with them - will grow.

 

Given time, Primaris marines are likely to get fleshed out in approximate fashion to their predecessors, and then it'll become easier to work with them.

 

 

Of course, as much as I've acted like I'm describing/speaking for everyone here in everything I've just said, this is only the ill-informed opinions of one guy and as such I reserve the right to be completely and unequivocally wrong.

[Dizzyeye01]

I know I barely post anything at all nowadays but here's my two cents at least. I see where you're coming from in terms of the journey meaning more than the end however both parts need to be meaningful in order for the Liber to work. Nobody will argue how important the Librarium was, I used to read the articles a lot when I was just starting off 40k and they really inspired me to work on my own stories even if I've been very prone to jump to different ideas. As Argent mentions, we have the Tabula but it's definitely pale in comparison.

 

The Librarium was clear and easy to find with it's own search engine and such. The Tabula? It's a topic. That's pretty much it. Sure it's at the top of the Space Marine section but it isn't even in the Liber. It only covers power armoured units and is outdated in the forces we now allow within the Liber. That's not even mentioning the download section proposed by Tyler in 2018. At the start, there was two entries to show a guideline of what to aim for. Looking at the section for background fluff today? There is now only two additions made not including the Mark of the Liber. Now, we have the Liber Showcase and while it's certainly an improvement on the past examples, it doesn't feel as recognized or as celebrated as before. 

 

As Ace mentions, lore has been more of a shifting point with the inclusion of Primaris however that hasn't stopped people from doing their own thing. There's nothing to stop people from writing their chapter before the Fall of Cadia. The galaxy is a big place and whether you want the news to affect your system or story i entirely your choice. Yes, the Silent King has come back from unknown space but how does that affect my chapter from the other side of the galaxy? Yes, we know from our perspective but does x chapter? Would x regiment know or even care if they're embattled by orks? They're the bigger threat after all because they can see them. It could be seen as a bigger threat in the universe that has brought change to the macro view but the micro? I'd argue that's the layer we focus on.

 

In short, yes the game has changed a lot during the years however that doesn't change the ending should be considered worthwhile.

[Deadass]

...Hmmm.

While I've read a number of older articles, I'm too young to have witnessed the Liber's "Golden Days" - both as a forum member and just a person in general - so my take on Ydalir's question might not bear as much weight. I do think, however, that it may be of interest, so bear with me for a little bit.
 

It used to be a place to work on your IA before submission to the Libraium. It used to be a place to come and gain critique for your work.
 
[...]
 
To me the Liber used to be a clash of ideas, a place where you could discuss and at times argue your views on what the 40k setting would allow in terms of fan IA creation, and what others deem impossible.

Many were the threads, both of IA's and general discussion threads that debated certain ideas or methods used by individuals or set by the community as a whole. There was a clear consensus on what was generally the most logical way to go about things. Ideas such as the Training Cadre, how Gene-Seed does and does not affect the chapter and what it brings to an IA, Mechanicus ties, influence from the High Lords and so on were all not only developed but also discussed. While the ideas existed and were widely accepted, they were also often discussed and argued as to how they could be changed/not used with the right justification.

I think a lot of that is still present in today's Liber. Members still challenge homebrewed concepts and ideas based on those same principles from ten to fifteen years ago. Hell, I think I've even seen the Octaguide being referred to here and there. Thing is - or, seems to be - that many of those folks from back then have moved on, either to different parts of the B&C or from the hobby altogether.
 
I also believe that part of the reason the forum has changed is the platform itself. A lot of the 40k homebrewing community is hosted on various wikis and Discord servers nowadays, places that approach this part of the hobby differently. I'd imagine that's where some of the more outlandish concepts you see these days originate from, but I have my own gripes with their methods that needn't be expanded upon here, so I'll move on.
 

It used to be a death-knell for your IA if people started saying 'do what makes you happy', because they were done arguing or discussing their critiques of your chapter that you weren't willing to deal with. It meant a loss in terms of constructive criticism for your IA. These days it often seems to be the byline for the Liber, something I totally disagree with.
 
There were many flaws and criticisms to be levelled and the Old Liber and how the members here used to prosecute certain ideas with a very narrow minded dedication and I'll be right along with you in condemning the goose-stepping of certain ideas into what you 'need' to do with your own unique work.

 
Again, I'm not really old enough to comment. I have used the phrase myself, though, and for me it was always just a matter of assuring people that I'm not the ultimate authority on writing a 'proper' chapter/warband/forge world/whatever once I've made my thoughts on the matter clear. One could argue that I'm just dodging a kind of responsibility by saying that, but I find that's a hard point to make when I'm talking about imaginary toy soldiers.
 

On the other side of that same coin however, you need resistance to develop. Whether it's life in general, at the gym, painting your models or writing your own stories, resistance stimulates growth. You'll never get better at painting your models without getting more detailed models and using unfamiliar or harder techniques in exactly the same way that you'll never get any stronger at the gym if you don't add weight to your lifts or reps to your sets.

 
Oh, absolutely. Struggling with and overcoming obstacles/resistance makes us grow as people in every situation I can think of - that includes writing exercises. Criticism is more important than praise imo, as I tend to get way too comfortable with me and my work when I hear the latter. Ace's comment correctly suggests that it's important to consider how said criticism is given, however.
 

Am I out of touch? Am I a relic of a time that no longer exists? Am I waxing nostalgic with rose tinted glasses?
 
I may be unreasonable in a lot of ways, though I also don't think we can improve ourselves in a vacuum and that places like this are a gym for our writing ability. Otherwise this forum has no logical reason to exist, to me, otherwise I'll just write it on my PC, assume it's good enough or even brilliant in my own mind, print it out and be done with it.
 
So, that's my rant/essay on it. Do you agree? Do you disagree?

 

I'll echo Ace again: Kinda.

 

You're completely in the right in saying that we need to be taken down a peg to get better at what we're doing here, and that simply brushing off those details we disagree with is not in the spirit of the Liber. But I don't think that has ever been the issue. It's not the purpose of the sub that's changed, but the times. I'll make an effort to comment more on peoples' threads and give feedback to prove that I mean what I say, but I can't promise that I'll always find the time.

 

+++

 

Now I know that's not the point of the topic, but I also wanted to address a few concerns uttered here about the state of the lore, specifically the introduction of the Primaris Space Marines. I'd argue that most of the big, glaring issues and questions with their lore have been resolved. Just like back in the day with pure firstborn chapters, there is a small amount of source material that I'd consider essential reading for working the Primaris into your homebrews, Ultima Founding or not. I'll list them here for convenience:

• The two most recent Space Marine Codices (especially the 8.5 version),
• Aaron Dembski-Bowden's Spear of the Emperor,
• Guy Haley's Dark Imperium,
• November 2019's issue of White Dwarf for its article Dawn of the Era Indomitus
• and if you can get your hands on it, the Silver Templars sourcebook from the Conquest magazines. Alternatively, their Index Astartes article can be found in this September's White Dwarf.

It's just a matter of reading up on everything, just like before. However, I think it might be surprising how little has changed in terms of organisation. They might look a little off, but ultimately, the Primaris are still Space Marines.

Edited November 6, 2020 by AHorriblePerson

[Brother Tyler]

Ultimately, this appears to be a continuation of this topic (only a few posts below, on the front page).

 

The short answer to the topic's title is easy. The purpose of the Liber is for hobbyists to discuss their DIYs. This might include development of their DIY (whether just as a concept or into some sort of article format for presentation) as well as simply presenting their DIY and how they use it in the various aspects of the hobby (modeling, gaming, fiction).

 

There are some widespread misconceptions about the Liber category, and while they are understandable, they sell the category and its forums short. Ultimately, there are a number of factors in play here. The first is that evoked by the topic title

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

This is the exact discussion I was hoping to get. I appreciate everyone taking the time to comment.

 

 

 

*SNIP*

All we can really do is encourage both types of participation.

But how?

One idea that comes to mind is that we can implement the trophy case concept via some sort of regular periodical – collecting the favorite/best DIYs and articles about DIY creation into a webzine. A ready example of this is the Eye of Terror issue of the Legio Imprint that was created here at the B&C by a group of dedicated hobbyists. Similarly, we might use the Legio Imprint as a vehicle for continued work on DIYs.

Plenty of other ideas come to mind – collaborative DIY creation projects (we’ve had several of those over the years); ongoing discussions about DIY development issues and methods; themed challenges such as the Aegyptus Astartes (Chapters themed around Ancient Egypt) and Draco Astartes (Chapters with a dragon theme); etc.

Ultimately, we’ll never force the Liber to be a happening place.

But we can inspire members to want to take part in the Liber.

 

I agree with many things you've said. Never force things upon people, inspire change and striving for their own betterment.

 

I think the best idea you've put forward is the 'trophy case'. While internet trends have changed significantly over time and a lot of people have moved on, I do believe it's the lack of a spirit of competition that makes things fall down flat around here. You can never expect everyone to need nor want that kind of achievement, but the people that do, the people that want that self-improvement and have that drive will set the tone and culture for the board they are in.

 

The idea that if you get your work to a good enough quality you could be featured, or be accepted into something is a big drive for many people. It's up to the forum's (not the boards) leadership to make sure the spirit of competition doesn't turn toxic, and the culture of a group, class or unit generally flows down from the leadership. We see this in military and especially Law Enforcement, where individual commands when isolated can adopt toxic culture that quickly has a negative impact on the operations of the 'ranking' units.

 

This is a public forum, it's definitely not the same, don't get me wrong I'm not trying to create some kind of false-equivalency here.

 

That said, to me it felt like there was a missing step in structure. You had the 'officers' (moderati, administratum, librarium, etc) but no NCO's. You need NCO's to keep the rest of the group colouring inside the lines, instead of devouring their neighbours crayon then starting a slap-fight about it (any Marines corroborate?).

 

There are no 'good old days', there's just then and now. Back then, there are a lot of positives to take away, but a lot of negatives too. Today I could say the same, yet list different things. It was busier then, and slower now. People are more positive now, and more toxic back then.

 

To me and my experience that just speaks to not having firm enough guidelines and leadership.

 

 

 

I can't speak to the changing nature of the internet and board usage in general and I'll take it on faith that you've got all the data in front of you. What can be done to boost engagement? Does the Bolter and Chainsword trade as an entity in general with social media (instagram, etc)?

 

I'm not financially involved nor am I involved with the day to day running of the board, but I am invested in keeping the board alive and thriving. This site still means a lot to me and it's the reason I'm questioning the veracity of how and why it exists, the Liber in particular. It's not a slight against those who currently work at keeping the board going, though you guys tend to do rather well at explaining things and responding without a tonne of defensive investment like a lot of other developers and creators do. The B&C seems to at least to me, take criticism well, and that in itself is rare.

 

I'm not sure myself what else is necessary, however I think the way the Liber is set up right now doesn't encourage retention of new members to the forum, or at least this particular corner of the board as it were. We want them to stay and become more involved with the board, invest in other members and other work on the forum.

 

I think overall retention is key and having your 'Librarium' equivalent is a good idea. 

 

 

 

*Snip*

 

Of course, as much as I've acted like I'm describing/speaking for everyone here in everything I've just said, this is only the ill-informed opinions of one guy and as such I reserve the right to be completely and unequivocally wrong.

 

 

You're always a joy to discuss things with. You have a funny way of being both totally firm, as well as being very humble about it.

 

 

I'm not sure just how much I'd assign to Primaris marines. It's not the same as the destruction as the Old World for example. It's a change, and it's a fairly big one historically, but I don't think that invalidates people coming to the forum to work out how this affects their DIY's.

 

And yeah, I can get a bit 'old man'-ish sometimes. In my day, I was wading through threads of whingers while walking uphill both ways in the snow just to write my DIY!

 

 

...Hmmm.

While I've read a number of older articles, I'm too young to have witnessed the Liber's "Golden Days" - both as a forum member and just a person in general - so my take on Ydalir's question might not bear as much weight. I do think, however, that it may be of interest, so bear with me for a little bit.
 

+++SNIP+++

 

Now I know that's not the point of the topic, but I also wanted to address a few concerns uttered here about the state of the lore, specifically the introduction of the Primaris Space Marines. I'd argue that most of the big, glaring issues and questions with their lore have been resolved. Just like back in the day with pure firstborn chapters, there is a small amount of source material that I'd consider essential reading for working the Primaris into your homebrews, Ultima Founding or not. I'll list them here for convenience:

• The two most recent Space Marine Codices (especially the 8.5 version),
• Aaron Dembski-Bowden's Spear of the Emperor,
• Guy Haley's Dark Imperium,
• November 2019's issue of White Dwarf for its article Dawn of the Era Indomitus
• and if you can get your hands on it, the Silver Templars sourcebook from the Conquest magazines. Alternatively, their Index Astartes article can be found in this September's White Dwarf.

It's just a matter of reading up on everything, just like before. However, I think it might be surprising how little has changed in terms of organisation. They might look a little off, but ultimately, the Primaris are still Space Marines.

 

Being 'old enough' or from way back when doesn't mean that much. Your voice is just as valid as anyone elses. I may have personal experience with the period in question which by it's nature gives it some weight, but it doesn't discount anyone elses. Some of the best ideas and arguments are put forward by those who don't have a bias drawn from that experience. Experience is good, but good, well thought through ideas arguments are better.

 

I think the points you made were absolutely on point, your and Ace's points on how criticism is given are absolutely valid. This isn't training for survival, it's a writing exercise. The aforementioned acerbic nature of the old Liber can stay deader than Elvis are far as I'm concerned. The only issue I can bring up is when someone on the receiving end is being stubborn and pigheaded, yet still wanting people to help, at which stage I feel it's helpful to give them a dressing-down, as at that point people are going to be not bothering with any more advice or critique as it is.

 

We also have to be careful with what Brother Tyler above mentions above, that it turns into a type of 'group think' that we as humans are very prone to engaging in. On the flipside I think we need community standards for things, good ones, otherwise we slide too far in either direction.

 

I also am completely behind you on the Primaris lore. It's new, it's what we're not used to, but it's here to stay and the problems are being addressed as they go. I can work with that.

 

 

And that's about as much as I can get out as a I've got work to do! I'll be back at some point to finish off where I was going with this reply. Please keep discussing if you wish, this is a topic for everyone to weigh in on, not just me, my ego and my memories.

[Daimyo-Phaeron Lenoch]

On mobile so quoting will be difficult.

 

On the topic of resistance: the old Liber (or at least the 2017 liber as I remember it, before I was en-modded and blessed with a holy melta) was something of a dangerous place. I came in bright-eyed and bushy tailed, and came out of the Iron Gauntlet a far better writer (the products of which are linked in my sig, if anyone cares to look). It wasn’t gentle criticism either—I had myself and my chapter knocked down a peg or three on at least one occasion—and it was mainly thanks to massive involvement with the frater and liberites who participated, Lord Thorn, who is now Cedo but at the time was also a frater like me, was one of them who helped me develop the Dawn Blades. Some of that is missing today, due in part to what feels like lower traffic to the Liber.

 

There is, in fact, an Iron Gauntlet occurring right now (which you should totally go check out, bee tee dubs), but it’s not having as much of an effect on the board and Liber as the 2017 one did, for a couple of reasons. 1) lower turnout in general. 2) the removal of the concrit requirement from the first challenge, which was the generation of a DIY organization (chapter, tomb world, sororitas order, etc). Some articles got plenty of traffic, notably ones from older hand liberites like LySiMachus, the original Gauntleteer, and Ace Debonair (whose name I still cannot spell :P ). Others, however, were mostly driven by their authors (like mine, to an extent, though I did a Liber Imperialis article instead of a Liber Astartes, which typically draw more attention—at the end of the day heritage is hard to let go of), and with a lack of a requirement to comment and help other liberites, cross-thread participation fell off.

 

Is there a remedy for that? Possibly, but if there is I can’t think of it right now.

 

Still on the point of resistance, but as a sort of counterpoint: resistance doesn’t have to come from other people, and growth can happen on its own as a writer. I look at some of the stuff I wrote five years ago or more for fandoms outside of Warhammer and I think ‘what the hell is this crap?’ And since I write so much in small quantities frequently, both here and elsewhere, I end up giving my brain plenty of resistance training without needing to get input from anyone.

 

A bit as to why I personally don’t post in the Liber as much as I used to.

-it’s work to post here, both as a mod and a frater. Putting together a diy article takes a lot of effort, sometimes more than it can be worth, even if only because I hate formatting, and because my lore evolves as I go as a living story, not a flashpoint in time. Real Life can get in the way of things, too, both with DIY’ing and with modding. It certainly has for me these last couple weeks (my apologies to any gauntleteers in the thread).

 

Just some responses to things I’m seeing in this thread.

[Brother Cambrius]

First off Ydalir, you've brought a very good topic of discussion that's has been a subject for a good stretch, notably with Brother Tyler's link to this discussion. :tu:

 

A lot of the stuff I would mention has been brought up already, notably how the traffic here in the LIBER and on the B&C in general has dropped significantly as the internet has advanced in how we interact with each other.

 

That alone has presented us with issues of activity, but we've had the other factors of the Era Indomitus and the complete shake up of the current 40k universe that has thrown the toys out of the pram for many members here as it affected a lot of our pre-written pieces or negates everything done prior to need to be updated. Plus right now, the current constant changing in the established lore is always making me double-think what I am writing, in case what I have created is suddenly going to be altered because of a WD entry or new rulebook/codex. It's great to see GW increasing their DIY encouragement recently, so this may help us out as the new era settles in throughout the coming months/years.

 

In terms of feedback and the Librarium, it was a good thing to have that target to chase, but as BT mentions, the concept of the Librarium warped into being very very tough and a narrow path for approval, which was a bit of an issue. The Tabula is a good thing to have now alongside Downloads, it just needs to be banged on the drum more to be shared, alongside Philip S.'s 1000 Chapter Gallery project. The level of activity and feedback during that heyday was very high and full of positivity, but there were drawbacks too with how firm the concept of divergent ideas beyond the norm was very hard to share.

 

Now on the concept of "Just do what you want as it's your Chapter.":

 

This has changed over time as the demography and posting styles here have changed, it was an old throwaway before, but now I say it very often as a Liberite first and foremost as it is a fact for the Frater who shared their work. But I also offer suggestions and balanced feedback to signpost anything that does go against the established lore that might be seen as odd or a breaking of the universe, or it needs some fine tuning to fit in a touch more snugly if desired. The offer is made, but it must be taken.

 

 

A bit as to why I personally don’t post in the Liber as much as I used to.

-it’s work to post here, both as a mod and a frater. Putting together a diy article takes a lot of effort, sometimes more than it can be worth, even if only because I hate formatting, and because my lore evolves as I go as a living story, not a flashpoint in time. Real Life can get in the way of things, too, both with DIY’ing and with modding. It certainly has for me these last couple weeks (my apologies to any gauntleteers in the thread).

 

 

Now this very much has been the same case for me, the addition of Covid's extra issues with my work has added to the energy drain that is being taken from my B&C reserves, especially during my fresh lockdown in the past 2 weeks. But I'm trying to reactivate my engines now to keep things ticking over and maintain activity to help out. 

 

That's my current 2 ceiniog, if I can think of anything else to air and share, I'll add it in. It's great to see some good discussion on this too, peeps. :)

 

Cambrius

[StratoKhan]

As someone who most actively participated in the Liber pre-2010, it's interesting to hear everyone's perspectives. The questions that came to my mind after reading through the thread are:

 

Why do people post, or not post, in the Liber? Why do I post in the Liber? Were the old ways best? Should there be a new approach?

 

Why do people post, or where has all the feedback and activity gone?

 

During the time I was most active (before being lost in the Warp), the board was marine-only and was only just starting to dip its toe into the wider factions of the Imperium. We had active membership to fuel and sustain everything within that remit. Granted, being focused on the most popular faction in 40k didn't hurt. Things are a little different now both within B&C and with the internet in general. Forums has less competition.

 

I have to agree with Brother Tyler that forums in general are not pulling in the same amount of membership or engagement as before (I was on Warseer recently and it's very sad to see how little activity they have on the boards nowadays). People seem to be moving on to new modes of communication and consumption of content. 

 

In general what I always appreciated about logging onto forums like B&C was the more articulated and well thought out feedback and criticism. Not that that's all you get here, but generally speaking the quality is good. The Liber has always been even more niche. It always attracted the section of the hobby community most inclined towards careful reading, discussion and debate (it also sometimes attracted people who were a bit Simpsons comic-book-guy-esque: "worst IA ever!"  ). But the Liber crowd was never huge. Maybe things have gone a little quieter than what I remember from 10 years ago, but this was never a section of the board with massive participation.

 

Why do I post in the Liber?

 

Why did I post in the past? I was always more fascinated by the background (still can't bring myself to write 'fluff' without getting a bad taste in my mouth) than by playing the game. Painting and creating rules, scenarios, fiction and background definitely beat gaming for me. I wanted to play narrative games. I wanted my characters and my chapter to feel real enough to runfun and exciting campaigns and special scenarios. Having my own Chapter and Chapter Master indulged my creative side in a way that Calgar, Dante or Logan Grimnar couldn't. I wanted all of that, and I wanted it to fit within the setting.

I never had multiple Chapters on the go, I had 'my guys', that's it.

 

In my vanity I wanted my Chapter's Index Astartes to be good enough to be in Citadel Journal, or WD before considering publishing it into the Librarium.

 

I would also read all the great IAs other members produced, but also all the not-so-great, even all the ones that could do with massive improvement. They all had their interesting facets and I learned a lot.

I posted a lot - as a University student I had more free time and flexibility in how to use my time. I also tried to give a lot of feedback, show people different ways of doing things. It did get repetitive sometimes because many first-time IAs had very similar issues.

 

Back then, I NEVER finished my original Index Astartes article. So many things got in the way. One issue was that I thought everything needed to be perfect before I'd be satisfied. An important step in my life has been to accept that less than perfection is not failure. Not doing something because it should be perfect vs. doing it and it that thing has flaws? Nowadays I can appreciate that my old focus on perfection has hindered me more than helped me in progressing. Personally I would like to help others in overcoming that block too.

 

Why do I post now? I'm back here because I have several goals in the hobby. One is that I want to 'finish' my IA to a decent level. That's it. I'm doing it here in the Liber because I really value the feedback that my fellow enthusiasts have for me. I want to post and help people if I can. I also want to have fun and enjoy myself. 

 

Were the old ways best?

 

First, what were the old ways?

The format that was most popular and still remains the most popular, is the Index Astartes article format. This type of article generally clocks in at 1.500-2.000 words or even more. It's not always easy for people to dedicate enough time to this, especially for those that don't have a lot of time. If younger people who generally have more free time and less commitments are gravitating towards different online communities then there will be less new people publishing IAs. a lot of the older Liber people either already built their IAs back in the day, or don't have time.

 

On feedback and on established conventions:

The training cadre. A smart and well-thought out idea. I cannot fault the logic and it makes perfect sense. What happened was that it became somewhat of a point of orthodoxy. After reading the tenth IA with the same concept it did make me wonder if rather than helping people it restricted them. The orthodoxy meant that sometimes people with slightly out-there ideas found that those ideas did not quite receive the welcome they had hoped.

I use the training cadre as an example because it's a good idea, not a bad one. I think that we need to remember that sometimes heresy is good. Following rules is good, breaking them can set you free.

 

When I was most active, there were times when the emphasis became more about getting people to adhere to an ideal than to enjoy and absorb people's new ideas. I know that sometimes I was guilty of that. Of course no one owes you any feedback, but maybe a less dogmatic approach might have retained more people. Some comments were a bit harsh. Please note that I am always talking about the community in general, and not singling anyone out. Also I am talking about pre-2010.

 

Good feedback is also hard to give. It is a big effort and not everyone has the time/energy to do it. And if it's the 20th time you've posted something similar I know from experience it can burn you out.

In the Forge you can just tell someone 'nice paintjob' or 'great highlighting' and it's enough.

Here that's an option too, but generally you are engaging with complex ideas and trying to summarise the impact of someone's writing and give feedback on multiple levels (grammar, syntax, tone, structure, themes, canon, realism, etc.). The paradox here is that the more developed IAs get less feedback than less developed ones and it can sometimes discourage those that are almost there, that have almost finished their IA and not quite.

 

Has the amount of activity in this subforum reduced over time? I'd be inclined to say yes.

But many things have happened to affect this:

Primaris Marine introduction (recent development). Changing internet habits (general trend). Changing demographics (general trend). Covid/economy (short term).

As I mentioned above, maybe the narrow focus of the subforum's community and its exacting approach might not always have helped keep people coming back to the forum. The position of the subforum and its promotion might also not have helped.

 

Since I returned to the forums this year, I can say that from what I've seen people still have passion for this hobby.

The question is are they interested in expressing that passion here? Maybe. Do they know of this place? Is Liber, to quote Spaced, the sandwich toaster of the B&C?

 

Should there be a new approach?

 

Is it realistic to expect things to 100% back the way they were? Probably not. The world is changing a little too much to hope for that. We should adapt, at least a little.

 

I think that I agree with a lot of the comments in this thread. Index Astartes style articles are great, but what about people who aren't able to do IA for whatever reason? Because of the past focus of the Liber, people who have a less ambitious goal might not feel as catered for. And then just don't come and participate in the subforum.

 

I think that people should get to feel accomplished after posting anything, not just IAs. Even just a paragraph from someone, with some interesting information on their Chapter background is a start, and this can be enough for people who have a cool army and just want to add an extra level of depth to that. A brief paragraph, 100/200 words - it might be all they need to increase their enjoyment of the hobby.

 

I've looked at some recent posts in the painting section for inspiration on different ways to engage with the backgorund. In Ryltar Thamior's Unyielding Adamanticores topic in the WIP subforum, there are painted miniatures, but there is also background. Which I don't think has been posted here. Someone (I think it's ST.Lazarus) posted some artwork they commissioned, which included a scroll with a short paragraph with some background. This is also a nice format - information and visual appeal in a concise package. Do we want people to share those kind of ideas here too? Or should we remain the IA repository?

 

I don't have answers, I just have a point of view. To summarise, as great as the Liber was at its best, at its worst it could veer into being a little elitist and dogmatic. I can't really say what it has been like in recent years. All I can say is that this summer when I posted my IA, I got good feedback and a feeling that there are still people that care enough about this kind of fan-driven development of the background. And it helped me.

 

Thanks for reading!

[Daimyo-Phaeron Lenoch]

All I can say is that this summer when I posted my IA, I got good feedback and a feeling that there are still people that care enough about this kind of fan-driven development of the background. And it helped me.

And this right here gets to the core of it. Helping people who want help in the Liber, from people who care.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I think much of the younger generation is in places like r/40klore which more or less fills the same niche as the libre section here does.

 

Single subject/topic forums I believe are dying out in favor of social media platforms that make it easier to keep up with all of your fandoms/hobbies.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Also would dropping the IA format help in favor of world anvil pages?

WA sites imho are more readable than IA pages while allowing you to do more.

[Daimyo-Phaeron Lenoch]

Strictly speaking, there is no required format for Liber articles; people just use the IA because it’s a widely known format, and because there are easy-to-use templates for it. If you want to use a WorldAnvil article format, you’re welcome to do so—it may just take some extra effort.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Ya I know there's no requirement for the IA style, just saying i think as a whole we should switch over to WA.

[Brother Tyler]

If you want to use the World Anvil format, feel free. If people like it, they might use it, too. If they like some other format, that's up to them, too.

 

I'm curious about the World Anvil format because I've never seen it. It would be really nice to see someone use it to good effect as a demonstration of its virtues. If it's solid enough, I might add it to the templates.

 

In the meantime, questions I've posed previously have yet to be answered. One of the chief complaints we hear is that the lack of the Librarium as an endgame with DIY article development has removed some of the impetus members have to work on an article. We have replaced that function with the Liber Showcase. While there are minor differences between the Librarium and the Liber Showcase, the core functionality remains comparable. Yet for all of the complaints, we have seen very few articles submitted to the Liber Showcase, not least from those that decry the loss of the Librarium. Why is this?

 

Aside from that, what projects/challenges do members think might be implemented in order to foster and sustain the activity within this group of forums?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Articles that do an in depth dive into chapter/army characters/heroes might be a challenge that can get things going again.

 

Chapter Master, librarian, or equivalents, etc.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

If you want to use the World Anvil format, feel free. If people like it, they might use it, too. If they like some other format, that's up to them, too.

 

I'm curious about the World Anvil format because I've never seen it. It would be really nice to see someone use it to good effect as a demonstration of its virtues. If it's solid enough, I might add it to the templates.

 

In the meantime, questions I've posed previously have yet to be answered. One of the chief complaints we hear is that the lack of the Librarium as an endgame with DIY article development has removed some of the impetus members have to work on an article. We have replaced that function with the Liber Showcase. While there are minor differences between the Librarium and the Liber Showcase, the core functionality remains comparable. Yet for all of the complaints, we have seen very few articles submitted to the Liber Showcase, not least from those that decry the loss of the Librarium. Why is this?

 

Aside from that, what projects/challenges do members think might be implemented in order to foster and sustain the activity within this group of forums?

here's an example of world anvil's format. 

 

https://www.worldanvil.com/w/flumen-labrum-johnpjones1776

[Brother Argent]

 One of the chief complaints we hear is that the lack of the Librarium as an endgame with DIY article development has removed some of the impetus members have to work on an article. We have replaced that function with the Liber Showcase. While there are minor differences between the Librarium and the Liber Showcase, the core functionality remains comparable. Yet for all of the complaints, we have seen very few articles submitted to the Liber Showcase, not least from those that decry the loss of the Librarium. Why is this?

 

Aside from that, what projects/challenges do members think might be implemented in order to foster and sustain the activity within this group of forums?

 

Why?  As one of those whom mourn the loss of the Librarium is that, and bear in mind I am in part projecting my own desires and opinions to a point, the Librarium of old felt like it was on the standard of being published, like by a professional publishing house.  It carried with it a level of (albeit unecessary and in reality to a point undeserved) elitism or satisfaction that your IA or article was "good enough".  It would be an acknowledgment of the hours and hours of long gruelling editing and rewriting to satisfy the feed back, both good and bad, one received in the halls here of the Liber.  Those of us whom lived in that era still want to create articles on that level.  To be able to put forward and article that is as good or better then anything that could have been found in White Dwarf in its hayday.  But to do that you need(ed) the same level of feedback, both positive and negative, to shape and mold your article till its to that standard.  You dont get that now.

 

The first draft of anything is crap.  That is an unmutable law of writing.  Yet I can sit at my key board for a few hours, vomit out some badly written vague ideas, post it up with a fancy title and, if I am lucky, get a few positive comments and maybe one or two comments offering some suggestions on what to change but not much of anything.  YOu make some edits, repost or bump and get... nothing.  I myself have tried to offer more involved comments in the past, or tried in some meaningful way to help the author and my comments are, more often then not, flat out ignored.  And I am not the only one.  But I feel this lack of comments and feedback may be a symptom of a far greater problem.

 

Long story short I feel that the Liber Showcase isn't held to the same standard as the Librarium of old, whether true or not, and many of the more veteran and grumpy members such as myself feel that it isn't really the Holy Grail of writing it once was.

 

 

But negative things aside I want to try to help with making Liber the relatively active place it once was.  I want some way to bottle the enthusiasm of members like Ace and infuse it into the rest of this little community that we all call home.  

 

In times past I attempted to run a series of challenges, originally the first Iron Gauntlet Challenges and then my Deathwatch Challenges.  Both were ways I attempted to stimulate activity as well as get people to re-examine their chapters/creations in a different light.  Unfortunately I let myself and other members down with these challenges back in the day, with loosing the time and ability to complete them and run them how I wanted.  While I am glad to see the Iron Gauntlet being run again I am sad that it isn't creating the same activity it did the first time around and its also not quite true to the original purpose, but no matter.  I feel that, although to a point good, the constant stream of Challenges and events of the B&C has to a point greatly reduced the meaningfulness of these challenges and taken a lot of the hype from them that once existed.  So perhaps a challenge/event of some sort might not be the way to go.  Although on that note an event that both gets people to develop their work but at the same time compete against each other may have some merit, particularly if it was tied to some sort of recognition or something could work.  I have been working over in my head for a while an event similar in nature to those run in the Imperial Guard sub forum such as the Conquest of Lutum etc.  I would label this even the Legends of the Liber.  I will get some ideas and send you and the Liber Mods a PM once I get things down on paper if you want.

 

As for other changes that could be made, perhaps a group similar to the Librarius of old.  A group whose role on the forum was not as Moderators but as editors and encouragers of those to form their own articles.  Somewhat as the custodians of the Showcase, though it really should have some sort of a more gothic name, like the Apocrypha Liberatii or something.  Perhaps they could as well as being stewards down here, helping encourage and being actively involved in promoting and critiquing articles, they may even have reach beyond that like working on compiling painting guides, WIP showcases etc.  A role outside the Moderatii as they once had.  Although that probably is a huge possibly solution to a smaller problem.  I know the Librarium as it once was in no more (though I miss the Librarium Painting Challenge) perhaps a soft core relaunch or even have these Librarius work towards the Legio Imprint periodical, compiling and showcasing the best from over the wed site on a regular basis.

 

I don't know how practical an idea it would be as I understand there would have been reasons for why the Librarius was shut down before, I imagine to do with bandwidth etc but I am oblivious on these sorts of things.  At the end of the day I know part of the " Fall of Liber" lies on my shoulders.  As a veteran of these halls I have stopped visiting and stopped trying to be a part of things where its up to members like myself to carry the torch to light the way for the new members.  The Liber of old was as much a toxic place as it was a good one and I feel that it was up to Frater like myself to carry on the good of the old but instead I have just given up.

 

For that I apologise to my Brothers and Sisters, both new and old.  Perhaps its time I stopped feeling sorry for things and got back to the Liber where I belong.

[Brother Tyler]

Looking at the World Anvil "format," I don't see how that works for the purposes of most people. From what I can see (and perhaps I'm missing something), that "format" works via links to pages and dialog boxes. We can't support dialog boxes. "Pages" might be separate interlinked posts, but that requires a level of effort that most members aren't willing to put in - building a structure for posts and then using the BBCode to link them appropriately. The format works well enough in a website structure, but not in a discussion forum or printed article that someone might download and print. That said, the content might be adapted to a structure that works here, which is what I'd really like to see. I will eventually be doing something like this for the Legio - an expansive discussion topic that is interlinked, providing detail and navigability around the article. As an admin, I have the resources and permissions at my disposal to make that much less daunting than it is for other members, but it's still very time- and effort-intensive for me. Since we can't give those same permissions to everyone, a similar level of effort becomes a real PITA for most people, and the results probably aren't worth the level of effort in most cases.

Ultimately, though, I foresee that the majority of hobbyists will stick to one of the formats that GW has used, especially the Adeptus Astartes format, if for no other reason than the pipe dream [that we all have] that our DIY article might one day appear in White Dwarf Magazine. I'd love to see a viable "World Anvil format" article posted here, however. Maybe it will pick up steam and others will emulate the format

Switching gears to the Librarium...

This seems to be an easy target for people, that the Librarium gave them an incentive to develop their article to a certain standard and inclusion in the Librarium was a badge of honour of sorts. More importantly, the claim is that the demise of the Librarium removed those incentives.

Keep in mind that our goal with the Librarium was never that only the "best" would be published. That elitism was an accident and we failed to nip it in the bud early so that it became accepted among too many as the goal. The goal was always that "finished" articles would be accepted, and those would be held to a basic standard that would be publication-ready. The Liber Showcase holds the exact same standards. If you look at any of the articles that are currently in the Liber Showcase, every single one of them would have been accepted into the Librarium, and each is at a level where it could have been published in WD (even the shorter ones). The expectation therein is that articles will be presented in a polished way, every bit as good as what was expected for the Librarium.

The real issue with the demise of the Librarium is the sense of accomplishment (some might call it elitism) that one's article was considered good enough to get in, better than any articles that haven't yet made it in. We have a better means for doing that now. The Legio Imprint gives us a vehicle to collect the best of the best in a recurring publication. We could have a Liber Annual, presenting the best articles for download and presenting them in a manner that we can't necessarily duplicate via the discussion forum format. That takes work, though, and wouldn't necessarily be born [solely] by the mods/admins (we can make this a product of the community and community effort).

We won't be creating a group just to provide feedback on articles. We had problems with gatekeeping in the past and having a new similar group would very likely create the exact same problem. There were some really bad problems behind the scenes. They weren't universal, but they were prevalent enough and repeated efforts to correct them failed so that we had to stop the gatekeeping via the drastic measure of shutting the Librarium down. There's no reason that members of the community can't/shouldn't help each other without some false sense of elitism and self-appointed "expert" badge. Everything that the Librarium once did (both intended and unintended) can be replicated with the current resources. The real problem is the level of participation - how do we encourage that? Repeated efforts have been made over the years to do just that, with the mods holding Liberalia Martiale events and other ways of encouraging participation. It's easy to point to the demise of the Librarium as the reason, but that's just a convenient excuse and ignores the real problem. The simple fact is that most people aren't willing to put in the level of effort required to both develop their own DIY to a high standard and help others to do the same with theirs. It's not laziness (okay, it might be in a very few cases). It's that interests have shifted, time available has changed, methods of interacting have changed, and a host of other variables. The various mod crews have tried a number of things over the years, burning themselves out in their efforts to help the community. Their efforts have been, and continue to be, valiant and worthy of admiration.

 

So the question that needs to be posed is what are you willing to do to help encourage greater participation in the Liber efforts? Simply providing feedback, even if it's nothing more than "Good job, I can't think of anything you can do to improve this" would help others to know that they're working towards an effort that can be realized. Would you be willing to vote for your favorite articles and help to re-format them into something for print? Would you be willing to work with other hobbyists in developing some narrative for two or more DIYs to interact in the setting (a scenario or campaign)? Each of us has our own answers to these questions, and our own ideas about how to improve things. The Librarium is not coming back [any time soon], however, and even if we do restore that functionality, it will be much more like what we have now in terms of the Downloads and Liber Showcase. So we need to stop banging that drum because it's not going to get us anywhere. If we really want to improve the Librarium, it's going to take effort, so we all need to make an honest assessment of the level of effort that we are willing to put into it.

[Ace Debonair]

Were the old ways best?

Myself, I don't think they were. The "old ways" are just what us grumpy old Liberites grew accustomed to.

 

In another five/ten years the Liber will change again and we'll have another crowd decrying the loss of the "old ways" of today, because human nature is what it is.  

 

In the meantime, questions I've posed previously have yet to be answered. One of the chief complaints we hear is that the lack of the Librarium as an endgame with DIY article development has removed some of the impetus members have to work on an article. We have replaced that function with the Liber Showcase. While there are minor differences between the Librarium and the Liber Showcase, the core functionality remains comparable. Yet for all of the complaints, we have seen very few articles submitted to the Liber Showcase, not least from those that decry the loss of the Librarium. Why is this?

I'm going to be 100% honest here and admit I plain old forgot to submit my Knights Oracular to the Showcase.

 

Which is quite embarrassing, because I honestly thought I already had!

I think I'll give them a quick once-over just in case I've missed any obvious mistakes (or in case fresh inspiration strikes), then get right on fixing that. 

 

 

EDIT: Ok, this might take a day or two to fix properly since I need to repaint some helmets for my display Reivers.

 

 

The first draft of anything is crap.  That is an unmutable law of writing.

Make that "The First Draft of anything needs adjustments" and I'd agree.

 

I've seen a few Chapters that, even at "rough concept" level, were pretty darn good.

 

Look back at the LASC '19 chapters, for example. Some of the stuff in there was fantastic, although they generally didn't stay as a simple first draft.

   

 

But negative things aside I want to try to help with making Liber the relatively active place it once was.  I want some way to bottle the enthusiasm of members like Ace and infuse it into the rest of this little community that we all call home.

 

Before everyone makes with the scalpels and syringes let me just interject that this sounds like Serious Heresy.

 

Also bear in mind that I haven't been terribly active in the Liber this year beyond plodding along with the Order of the Iron Tower and the Stonebound, although that's been a lack of time as much as anything. Retail life in a lockdown is a whole different level of exhausting!

Edited November 22, 2020 by Ace Debonair

[Brother Argent]

This seems to be an easy target for people, that the Librarium gave them an incentive to develop their article to a certain standard and inclusion in the Librarium was a badge of honour of sorts. More importantly, the claim is that the demise of the Librarium removed those incentives.

 

Keep in mind that our goal with the Librarium was never that only the "best" would be published. That elitism was an accident and we failed to nip it in the bud early so that it became accepted among too many as the goal. The goal was always that "finished" articles would be accepted, and those would be held to a basic standard that would be publication-ready. The Liber Showcase holds the exact same standards. If you look at any of the articles that are currently in the Liber Showcase, every single one of them would have been accepted into the Librarium, and each is at a level where it could have been published in WD (even the shorter ones). The expectation therein is that articles will be presented in a polished way, every bit as good as what was expected for the Librarium.

 

The real issue with the demise of the Librarium is the sense of accomplishment (some might call it elitism) that one's article was considered good enough to get in, better than any articles that haven't yet made it in. We have a better means for doing that now. The Legio Imprint gives us a vehicle to collect the best of the best in a recurring publication. We could have a Liber Annual, presenting the best articles for download and presenting them in a manner that we can't necessarily duplicate via the discussion forum format. That takes work, though, and wouldn't necessarily be born [solely] by the mods/admins (we can make this a product of the community and community effort).

 

I personally think that it was in part the reason alot of the more veteran Liber members moved on.  Other reasons would obviously be the changing hobby and the world and interests themselves.  I never stated it was the only reason and it is a reason that mostly effects the longer term members.  Most of the newer members probably don't even know what on earth we are banging on about so its obviously not the only reason.

 

I fully agree about the (self appointed) elitism by some of those whose articles were featured there. Not all, however, but the articles there were held to a certain esteem and some of the article writers transferred that esteem to themselves.  If I am honest I cant say how glad I am that the toxic self aggrandizing nature that often permeated the Liber.  I myself completely abandoned more then my fair share of IA's due to a blistering or sarcastic tearing down from some of the less... constructive members.  Whilst they, at least in some way, had the author's interests in heart they went about it in all the wrong ways.

 

I was unaware of the Liber Showcase standards, having never considered an article any way near good enough to submit as I still hold myself to the (mostly self punishing and self appointed) standards I imagined the Librarium to have.  But I am glad that this is still the case.  I still think it needs a more Gothic name though... 

 

But at the end of the day I feel most people post online forums such as this for a sense of accomplishment.  Be it people complimenting your painting work or that moment when you can post a full beautifully painted army in the Hall of Honour or showcases.  Or when you can finally say, yes, this article is as good as I can get it.  The attitude was, whether rightly or wrongly, that acceptance to the Librarium was a mark of that.  We just need to promote the fact that the Liber Showcase is, to a point, that now.  Not that your article is somehow better then others but that its as good as it can be.

 

As for Legio/Liber Imprint I would be willing to help where I could.  I am not sure how much I could help, but I would love to try.

 

We won't be creating a group just to provide feedback on articles. We had problems with gatekeeping in the past and having a new similar group would very likely create the exact same problem. There were some really bad problems behind the scenes. They weren't universal, but they were prevalent enough and repeated efforts to correct them failed so that we had to stop the gatekeeping via the drastic measure of shutting the Librarium down. There's no reason that members of the community can't/shouldn't help each other without some false sense of elitism and self-appointed "expert" badge. Everything that the Librarium once did (both intended and unintended) can be replicated with the current resources. The real problem is the level of participation - how do we encourage that? Repeated efforts have been made over the years to do just that, with the mods holding Liberalia Martiale events and other ways of encouraging participation. It's easy to point to the demise of the Librarium as the reason, but that's just a convenient excuse and ignores the real problem. The simple fact is that most people aren't willing to put in the level of effort required to both develop their own DIY to a high standard and help others to do the same with theirs. It's not laziness (okay, it might be in a very few cases). It's that interests have shifted, time available has changed, methods of interacting have changed, and a host of other variables. The various mod crews have tried a number of things over the years, burning themselves out in their efforts to help the community. Their efforts have been, and continue to be, valiant and worthy of admiration.

 

So the question that needs to be posed is what are you willing to do to help encourage greater participation in the Liber efforts? Simply providing feedback, even if it's nothing more than "Good job, I can't think of anything you can do to improve this" would help others to know that they're working towards an effort that can be realized. Would you be willing to vote for your favorite articles and help to re-format them into something for print? Would you be willing to work with other hobbyists in developing some narrative for two or more DIYs to interact in the setting (a scenario or campaign)? Each of us has our own answers to these questions, and our own ideas about how to improve things. The Librarium is not coming back [any time soon], however, and even if we do restore that functionality, it will be much more like what we have now in terms of the Downloads and Liber Showcase. So we need to stop banging that drum because it's not going to get us anywhere. If we really want to improve the Librarium, it's going to take effort, so we all need to make an honest assessment of the level of effort that we are willing to put into it.

 

Okay so I was unaware of any gate keeping issues or behind the scene stuff.  But I honestly wasn't suggesting it as an 'elite group of experts' rather then a 'committed group of volunteers'.  Being a member of this group wouldn't imply you had some extra knowledge or anything but rather you were just committing to helping others reach a 'finished' article.  But you are completely right on the point of that, when it comes down to it, all of us in Liber are committing to being that.  Its an unwritten agreement in a sense that if you want feed back on what you have posted, you need to provide feed back to others.  Thats what makes the Liber the Liber.  We were for the longest time the bunch of crazies in the basement.  But we were a family of crazies.

 

For how to encourage participation, I don't know.  I myself will commit to being a more active helper here in the Liber.  Perhaps my small part may help.  Perhaps not but at the end of the day it doesn't hurt to try.

 

And to the Moderatii I have nothing but respect.  They have done a valiant effort to breathe life back into these halls and I have nothing but respect for the heavy toll that must take.  I am always willing to help them where and if I can.  I owe it to them and the Liber to do at least that much.

 

As for the second bit here.  Yes.  Yes I am on all accounts.  Or will try to be.  I want to see Liber as the thriving chaotic place it used to be. I am going to develop an idea for a series of small challenges as mentioned earlier, The Legends of Liber, and will perhaps rework and relaunch some version of my Deathwatch Challenge and perhaps even one day retake the mantle of the master of the Iron Gauntlet.  Or try to create other ways to get this community thriving as it once did.  I have too long lamented the changes here without doing my part to try to help things recover.  The Liber was my first home on the B&C and it remains so, despite the new decor.

 

I promise I wont mention the Librarium again... maybe... 

 

And I will get my own articles up to scratch and submit them to the Liberatus Showcasium....  

 

 

Before everyone makes with the scalpels and syringes let me just interject that this sounds like Serious Heresy.

 

Also bear in mind that I haven't been terribly active in the Liber this year beyond plodding along with the Order of the Iron Tower and the Stonebound, although that's been a lack of time as much as anything. Retail life in a lockdown is a whole different level of exhausting!

 

... I haven't painted loyalists in a while Ace.  Serious Heresy is fast becoming my thing... 

 

And you and me both Brother.  Perhaps a return to the Lauss Rift may be in order...?  Or other... interesting locations...

[Brother Argent]

... And I have just fully re-read other posts in this topic and a lot of what I have said has already been addressed of just generally dismissed so, while I am going to leave it there, just disregard what I said.  My opinion in things has never been popular here anyway.  I guess it just goes back to my earlier comment of my days of being relevant are long past. 

 

I do still intend on being more active though.  Don't disregard that part.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Looking at the World Anvil "format," I don't see how that works for the purposes of most people. From what I can see (and perhaps I'm missing something), that "format" works via links to pages and dialog boxes. We can't support dialog boxes. "Pages" might be separate interlinked posts, but that requires a level of effort that most members aren't willing to put in - building a structure for posts and then using the BBCode to link them appropriately. The format works well enough in a website structure, but not in a discussion forum or printed article that someone might download and print. That said, the content might be adapted to a structure that works here, which is what I'd really like to see. I will eventually be doing something like this for the Legio - an expansive discussion topic that is interlinked, providing detail and navigability around the article. As an admin, I have the resources and permissions at my disposal to make that much less daunting than it is for other members, but it's still very time- and effort-intensive for me. Since we can't give those same permissions to everyone, a similar level of effort becomes a real PITA for most people, and the results probably aren't worth the level of effort in most cases.

 

Ultimately, though, I foresee that the majority of hobbyists will stick to one of the formats that GW has used, especially the Adeptus Astartes format, if for no other reason than the pipe dream [that we all have] that our DIY article might one day appear in White Dwarf Magazine. I'd love to see a viable "World Anvil format" article posted here, however. Maybe it will pick up steam and others will emulate the format

 

Switching gears to the Librarium...

 

This seems to be an easy target for people, that the Librarium gave them an incentive to develop their article to a certain standard and inclusion in the Librarium was a badge of honour of sorts. More importantly, the claim is that the demise of the Librarium removed those incentives.

 

Keep in mind that our goal with the Librarium was never that only the "best" would be published. That elitism was an accident and we failed to nip it in the bud early so that it became accepted among too many as the goal. The goal was always that "finished" articles would be accepted, and those would be held to a basic standard that would be publication-ready. The Liber Showcase holds the exact same standards. If you look at any of the articles that are currently in the Liber Showcase, every single one of them would have been accepted into the Librarium, and each is at a level where it could have been published in WD (even the shorter ones). The expectation therein is that articles will be presented in a polished way, every bit as good as what was expected for the Librarium.

 

The real issue with the demise of the Librarium is the sense of accomplishment (some might call it elitism) that one's article was considered good enough to get in, better than any articles that haven't yet made it in. We have a better means for doing that now. The Legio Imprint gives us a vehicle to collect the best of the best in a recurring publication. We could have a Liber Annual, presenting the best articles for download and presenting them in a manner that we can't necessarily duplicate via the discussion forum format. That takes work, though, and wouldn't necessarily be born [solely] by the mods/admins (we can make this a product of the community and community effort).

 

We won't be creating a group just to provide feedback on articles. We had problems with gatekeeping in the past and having a new similar group would very likely create the exact same problem. There were some really bad problems behind the scenes. They weren't universal, but they were prevalent enough and repeated efforts to correct them failed so that we had to stop the gatekeeping via the drastic measure of shutting the Librarium down. There's no reason that members of the community can't/shouldn't help each other without some false sense of elitism and self-appointed "expert" badge. Everything that the Librarium once did (both intended and unintended) can be replicated with the current resources. The real problem is the level of participation - how do we encourage that? Repeated efforts have been made over the years to do just that, with the mods holding Liberalia Martiale events and other ways of encouraging participation. It's easy to point to the demise of the Librarium as the reason, but that's just a convenient excuse and ignores the real problem. The simple fact is that most people aren't willing to put in the level of effort required to both develop their own DIY to a high standard and help others to do the same with theirs. It's not laziness (okay, it might be in a very few cases). It's that interests have shifted, time available has changed, methods of interacting have changed, and a host of other variables. The various mod crews have tried a number of things over the years, burning themselves out in their efforts to help the community. Their efforts have been, and continue to be, valiant and worthy of admiration.

 

So the question that needs to be posed is what are you willing to do to help encourage greater participation in the Liber efforts? Simply providing feedback, even if it's nothing more than "Good job, I can't think of anything you can do to improve this" would help others to know that they're working towards an effort that can be realized. Would you be willing to vote for your favorite articles and help to re-format them into something for print? Would you be willing to work with other hobbyists in developing some narrative for two or more DIYs to interact in the setting (a scenario or campaign)? Each of us has our own answers to these questions, and our own ideas about how to improve things. The Librarium is not coming back [any time soon], however, and even if we do restore that functionality, it will be much more like what we have now in terms of the Downloads and Liber Showcase. So we need to stop banging that drum because it's not going to get us anywhere. If we really want to improve the Librarium, it's going to take effort, so we all need to make an honest assessment of the level of effort that we are willing to put into it.

thought i replied to this already, guess not.

 

any way, there's no 'BBC' coding for anyone to do. there's just buttons to click for each type of article, world, organization, character, religion, diplomacy etc.

you save the article and change it from draft/WIP and it publishes to the main page automatically. 

 

i'm about as computer and tech stupid as it comes and i can figure it out. (can't even figure out how to get my iphone to update for crying out loud...)

 

and just in general i think for some reason GW isn't attracting as many people who are as interested in coming up with their own fluff, hurting the liber. 

 

Edited November 23, 2020 by Inquisitor_Lensoven