+Liber's Purpose+

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

Were the old ways best?

Myself, I don't think they were. The "old ways" are just what us grumpy old Liberites grew accustomed to.

 

In another five/ten years the Liber will change again and we'll have another crowd decrying the loss of the "old ways" of today, because human nature is what it is.  

 

In the meantime, questions I've posed previously have yet to be answered. One of the chief complaints we hear is that the lack of the Librarium as an endgame with DIY article development has removed some of the impetus members have to work on an article. We have replaced that function with the Liber Showcase. While there are minor differences between the Librarium and the Liber Showcase, the core functionality remains comparable. Yet for all of the complaints, we have seen very few articles submitted to the Liber Showcase, not least from those that decry the loss of the Librarium. Why is this?

I'm going to be 100% honest here and admit I plain old forgot to submit my Knights Oracular to the Showcase.

 

Which is quite embarrassing, because I honestly thought I already had!

I think I'll give them a quick once-over just in case I've missed any obvious mistakes (or in case fresh inspiration strikes), then get right on fixing that. 

 

 

EDIT: Ok, this might take a day or two to fix properly since I need to repaint some helmets for my display Reivers.

 

 

The first draft of anything is crap.  That is an unmutable law of writing.

Make that "The First Draft of anything needs adjustments" and I'd agree.

 

I've seen a few Chapters that, even at "rough concept" level, were pretty darn good.

 

Look back at the LASC '19 chapters, for example. Some of the stuff in there was fantastic, although they generally didn't stay as a simple first draft.

   

 

But negative things aside I want to try to help with making Liber the relatively active place it once was.  I want some way to bottle the enthusiasm of members like Ace and infuse it into the rest of this little community that we all call home.

 

Before everyone makes with the scalpels and syringes let me just interject that this sounds like Serious Heresy.

 

Also bear in mind that I haven't been terribly active in the Liber this year beyond plodding along with the Order of the Iron Tower and the Stonebound, although that's been a lack of time as much as anything. Retail life in a lockdown is a whole different level of exhausting!

 

if the old ways had a higher level of participation that right there is a pretty good indication of if they were better or not.

[Ace Debonair]

if the old ways had a higher level of participation that right there is a pretty good indication of if they were better or not.

Not sure I'd necessarily agree with that.

 

For example, in the Old Liber people were generally encouraged to create Index Astartes articles specifically, so you'd have been gently but firmly discouraged* from even attempting something like a Chapter Summary on the World Anvil.

 

Now days, not so much. A bit more diversity in layout can surely only be a good thing - sometimes you really just don't need 2,000+ words to describe your Space Marines/Chaos Marines/Other 40k stuff, and splitting the sections you write onto different pages makes it a bit more of an interactive experience.

 

Especially if you've got a few neat models or suitably cool artwork and can put different ones on each page.

 

*I still have the scars from my last discouragement. At least I've stopped waking up screaming now, though.

[Brother Tyler]

...there's no 'BBC' coding for anyone to do. there's just buttons to click for each type of article, world, organization, character, religion, diplomacy etc.

you save the article and change it from draft/WIP and it publishes to the main page automatically...

The issue there becomes whether or not the information in that format is even necessary for what an author wants to do. For reference, you might read this topic about how different concepts require different types of information and different amounts of that information. Not everyone is developing a DIY in a way that needs a world to be developed. World Anvil, after all, is about world development. Often, DIYs are more concerned with an organization, an event in an organization's history, or individuals that lead/influence an organization. There will be some DIYs for which the information presented in a World Anvil format might be very useful, but there will be many more for which much of that information is superfluous. As I stated before, though, the presentation of that World Anvil information is via a format that we can't support here. We would have to convert that into headers and what-not. We're not going to funnel our activities over to another site, but we might adapt useful bits of that site for our purposes. So a constructive follow-up would be a presentation (in another topic) of how the World Anvil format might be converted for use here.

 

if the old ways had a higher level of participation that right there is a pretty good indication of if they were better or not.

Definitely not. There was a lot of good participation, but there was also a lot of bad participation that drove hobbyists away. We have considerable anecdotal evidence to support this, and a whole lot of work that took place behind the scenes to combat the negativity. A better metric would be to compare the quality of articles written at that time to articles written at other times. And then you'd have to evaluate whether any reduction in articles was due to changes in criticism provided or if other factors are an issue. Also, were the finished articles at that time really "good" or "better" than what we have now. I've seen quite a few articles written before and after "the good old times" that were every bit as good as articles written during anyone's perceived Golden Age of the Liber. And while some might point to some or other incentive to participate and reduction in participation, we've already demonstrated that there are quite a few other factors at play and the complex interactions of all of these factors means that there's no simple answer. We're not going back to "the good old days" (which had some really nasty elements to them). It would be much better to forge a new era where we incorporate the good stuff from those good old days and the good stuff from other periods to foster a better environment, hopefully removing or reducing the bad parts to the greatest extent possible.

 

...in the Old Liber people were generally encouraged to create Index Astartes articles specifically, so you'd have been gently but firmly discouraged* from even attempting something like a Chapter Summary on the World Anvil...

That's really sugar coating things. Let's call things like they were: While there was a lot of really good stuff in those good old days, there was also a lot of rampant jackassery. Too many people demanded conformity to arbitrary standards of format, lore adherence, and level of effort and demeaned those that refused to conform. Too many hobbyists were driven away by gatekeeping jerks. We don't need that. There are lots of things that we can do to encourage participation herein, but we're not going to regress to the bad old days. I know that you're not advocating for a return of the bad elements, Ace. I'm just making my point emphatically clear for those that are ignoring all of the negative aspects of the perceived halcyon days of the Liber.

[Ace Debonair]

That's really sugar coating things.

True, but I'm trying not to cause offence to anyone.

 

Don't let my sugary tones fool you - I've little love for the Old Days beyond missing a lot the brothers-in-text I made years ago.

 

Let's call things like they were: While there was a lot of really good stuff in those good old days, there was also a lot of rampant jackassery. Too many people demanded conformity to arbitrary standards of format, lore adherence, and level of effort and demeaned those that refused to conform. Too many hobbyists were driven away by gatekeeping jerks. We don't need that. There are lots of things that we can do to encourage participation herein, but we're not going to regress to the bad old days. I know that you're not advocating for a return of the bad elements, Ace. I'm just making my point emphatically clear for those that are ignoring all of the negative aspects of the perceived halcyon days of the Liber.

One thing I do recall, vividly, is that a lot of the members would come down equally heavy on anything that was posted, be it by a hardened Liber veteran or a fresh-faced newbie whose only prior experience of Space Marines was multiplayer on Dawn of War.

 

I think that's how I got my reputation as a (comparatively) nice guy, because I'd try not to immediately crush the hopes and dreams of every newcomer that typed up a rough draft, instead of immediately throwing the fresh meat into the grinder.

 

EDIT:

Oops, posted my reply before I'd finished writing it.

 

In the Liber these days, everyone has more of the hang of it - there's less immediate crushing of every idea down to the bedrock and going "No, make a Codex Chapter instead, exactly like their forefathers but subtly different. Oh, and it'd better be interesting."

 

In short, everyone seems to have finally figured out how Kid Gloves work and when to use them.

 

Granted, there's less activity now than there once was.

 

But mostly the people upset about how the Liber is now aren't posting or visibly working on their own Chapters (hint hint, brothers ) of late.  So I can think of at least one easy fix for the perceived lack of activity in the Liber - be the change you want to see and all that!

Edited November 24, 2020 by Ace Debonair

[StratoKhan]

Anyone who has some time to spare can reread old topics in this sub forum, to get a feel for.

It’s certainly been enlightening for me.

Especially regarding the kid gloves Ace mentioned. Enthusiastic newcomers were sometimes met with a bit more force than might have been warranted.

 

Two things I noted from a brief run through old topics:

- Several people who started topics were newcomers to the board (8posts total, 21 posts). Once they got mauled they didn’t come back to the board, not just this sub forum.

- The amount of posts and views for each topic aren’t that dissimilar to now, unless I’m misinterpreting what I’m seeing.

 

Enough about the past though.

 

What do I want to do about the future? I have two goals:

 

- I want to finish my IA (selfish, I know )

- I want to start another Chapter, using a new format that’s more visual and has very little text. I would like to prove that there are other ways to convey interesting concepts beyond the IA format that we all like.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

if the old ways had a higher level of participation that right there is a pretty good indication of if they were better or not.

Not sure I'd necessarily agree with that.

 

For example, in the Old Liber people were generally encouraged to create Index Astartes articles specifically, so you'd have been gently but firmly discouraged* from even attempting something like a Chapter Summary on the World Anvil.

 

Now days, not so much. A bit more diversity in layout can surely only be a good thing - sometimes you really just don't need 2,000+ words to describe your Space Marines/Chaos Marines/Other 40k stuff, and splitting the sections you write onto different pages makes it a bit more of an interactive experience.

 

Especially if you've got a few neat models or suitably cool artwork and can put different ones on each page.

 

*I still have the scars from my last discouragement. At least I've stopped waking up screaming now, though.

 

if all you're doing is 

 

Chapter Name

Founding Number

Lineage

 

and a single paragraph about your chapter, sure WA might be a bit much and not worth the time to make an account.

 

but for people who are trying to fit/build their chapter into the existing world/universe a  bit more than "here's my chapter, they exist" it's a great tool is all i'm saying, and especially for the crusade game play, for recording such campaigns/crusades into your chapter's history. there's literally a conflict option, etc.

 

 

Anyone who has some time to spare can reread old topics in this sub forum, to get a feel for.

It’s certainly been enlightening for me.

Especially regarding the kid gloves Ace mentioned. Enthusiastic newcomers were sometimes met with a bit more force than might have been warranted.

 

Two things I noted from a brief run through old topics:

- Several people who started topics were newcomers to the board (8posts total, 21 posts). Once they got mauled they didn’t come back to the board, not just this sub forum.

- The amount of posts and views for each topic aren’t that dissimilar to now, unless I’m misinterpreting what I’m seeing.

 

Enough about the past though.

 

What do I want to do about the future? I have two goals:

 

- I want to finish my IA (selfish, I know )

- I want to start another Chapter, using a new format that’s more visual and has very little text. I would like to prove that there are other ways to convey interesting concepts beyond the IA format that we all like.

WA has a lot of text, lol but i think for indepth lore i personally think it's a better option than the IA format.

[TechCaptain]

 

 

if the old ways had a higher level of participation that right there is a pretty good indication of if they were better or not.

Not sure I'd necessarily agree with that.

 

For example, in the Old Liber people were generally encouraged to create Index Astartes articles specifically, so you'd have been gently but firmly discouraged* from even attempting something like a Chapter Summary on the World Anvil.

 

Now days, not so much. A bit more diversity in layout can surely only be a good thing - sometimes you really just don't need 2,000+ words to describe your Space Marines/Chaos Marines/Other 40k stuff, and splitting the sections you write onto different pages makes it a bit more of an interactive experience.

 

Especially if you've got a few neat models or suitably cool artwork and can put different ones on each page.

 

*I still have the scars from my last discouragement. At least I've stopped waking up screaming now, though.

 

if all you're doing is 

 

Chapter Name

Founding Number

Lineage

 

and a single paragraph about your chapter, sure WA might be a bit much and not worth the time to make an account.

 

but for people who are trying to fit/build their chapter into the existing world/universe a  bit more than "here's my chapter, they exist" it's a great tool is all i'm saying, and especially for the crusade game play, for recording such campaigns/crusades into your chapter's history. there's literally a conflict option, etc.

 

 

 

Anyone who has some time to spare can reread old topics in this sub forum, to get a feel for.

It’s certainly been enlightening for me.

Especially regarding the kid gloves Ace mentioned. Enthusiastic newcomers were sometimes met with a bit more force than might have been warranted.

 

Two things I noted from a brief run through old topics:

- Several people who started topics were newcomers to the board (8posts total, 21 posts). Once they got mauled they didn’t come back to the board, not just this sub forum.

- The amount of posts and views for each topic aren’t that dissimilar to now, unless I’m misinterpreting what I’m seeing.

 

Enough about the past though.

 

What do I want to do about the future? I have two goals:

 

- I want to finish my IA (selfish, I know )

- I want to start another Chapter, using a new format that’s more visual and has very little text. I would like to prove that there are other ways to convey interesting concepts beyond the IA format that we all like.

WA has a lot of text, lol but i think for indepth lore i personally think it's a better option than the IA format.

 

Well unfortunately I am not seeing much of those discussions even on longer written Chapters.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

 

if the old ways had a higher level of participation that right there is a pretty good indication of if they were better or not.

Not sure I'd necessarily agree with that.

 

For example, in the Old Liber people were generally encouraged to create Index Astartes articles specifically, so you'd have been gently but firmly discouraged* from even attempting something like a Chapter Summary on the World Anvil.

 

Now days, not so much. A bit more diversity in layout can surely only be a good thing - sometimes you really just don't need 2,000+ words to describe your Space Marines/Chaos Marines/Other 40k stuff, and splitting the sections you write onto different pages makes it a bit more of an interactive experience.

 

Especially if you've got a few neat models or suitably cool artwork and can put different ones on each page.

 

*I still have the scars from my last discouragement. At least I've stopped waking up screaming now, though.

 

if all you're doing is 

 

Chapter Name

Founding Number

Lineage

 

and a single paragraph about your chapter, sure WA might be a bit much and not worth the time to make an account.

 

but for people who are trying to fit/build their chapter into the existing world/universe a  bit more than "here's my chapter, they exist" it's a great tool is all i'm saying, and especially for the crusade game play, for recording such campaigns/crusades into your chapter's history. there's literally a conflict option, etc.

 

 

 

Anyone who has some time to spare can reread old topics in this sub forum, to get a feel for.

It’s certainly been enlightening for me.

Especially regarding the kid gloves Ace mentioned. Enthusiastic newcomers were sometimes met with a bit more force than might have been warranted.

 

Two things I noted from a brief run through old topics:

- Several people who started topics were newcomers to the board (8posts total, 21 posts). Once they got mauled they didn’t come back to the board, not just this sub forum.

- The amount of posts and views for each topic aren’t that dissimilar to now, unless I’m misinterpreting what I’m seeing.

 

Enough about the past though.

 

What do I want to do about the future? I have two goals:

 

- I want to finish my IA (selfish, I know )

- I want to start another Chapter, using a new format that’s more visual and has very little text. I would like to prove that there are other ways to convey interesting concepts beyond the IA format that we all like.

WA has a lot of text, lol but i think for indepth lore i personally think it's a better option than the IA format.

 

Well unfortunately I am not seeing much of those discussions even on longer written Chapters.

 

I think that's a result of GW's marketing.

i cant put my finger on what exactly i think is causing fewer of the more creative types to get into it, but i think their attempts to 'simplify' and streamline the game itself has attracted more people who are more interested in pretty pictures (which  can be uploaded to WA articles) than they are story telling.

 

i think the big thing for the liber is just figuring out how to keep those who are active involved in the various discussions.

[TechCaptain]

Agreed, Even on the Wiki that seems to be the case. Longer discussions involve pictures than words. Unfortunately for me, I am not very Artistic lol. But i am glad for discussions like this where those who do read are getting into how we can engage people.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Agreed, Even on the Wiki that seems to be the case. Longer discussions involve pictures than words. Unfortunately for me, I am not very Artistic lol. But i am glad for discussions like this where those who do read are getting into how we can engage people.

ya i'd love to upload a picture of my chapter's chapter badge but i can't draw for :cuss lol

[Sete]

A couple of things from me.

I have zero experience on photoshop, or creating those fancy index pages, a resource where a frater could just pick up and fill would give another breath of life in Liber.

 

Does it need to be an extensive article?

I do not think so.

 

You get a colour scheme, chapter tactic, motto, some info about the chapter and any quirks or features and you have a small index sorted, like CF and BT got in the last codex space marines.

 

Compile a PDF of all liber chapters, and boom, you have a catalog of Chapters that you can read about, use on your campaigns or fluff pieces, and it's a great resource that can be shared around the community.

Bolter & Chainsword Index Astartes for example.

 

In the aspect if creating a chapter I'm moving away from creating a "snowflake" one.

 

I double down on the vanilla aspect of it due to the fact that they are primaris only and their recent existance does not justify deep cultural roots or practices.

 

And this is a thing now with the crusade system, if you are lucky enough to play often, to create a living Index Astartes.

 

They are vanilla but they fight Orks often, so they might take prefered enemy Orks instead of stealthy, they might start taking trophies, and become experts on melee, etc.

 

It's an exciting time to create a chapter.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

... And I have just fully re-read other posts in this topic and a lot of what I have said has already been addressed of just generally dismissed so, while I am going to leave it there, just disregard what I said.  My opinion in things has never been popular here anyway.  I guess it just goes back to my earlier comment of my days of being relevant are long past. 

 

I do still intend on being more active though.  Don't disregard that part.

 

 

I'll be blunt, who cares if your opinion isn't popular? The only way we grow is by listening to and talking about viewpoints that don't align with our own. It's one of the many reasons the world has become so unbelievably and infuriatingly partisan in all things, everyone sits in their social-media echo-chambers and shouts insults and death threats across the waters without having any true understanding as to the gravity of the things they're emotionally expelling at each other.

 

I've had the misfortune to have seen some wicked things that people have done to each other in reality, and yet online discourse still staggers my disbelief and anger more than the horrors of the real world.

 

I'd rather you voice your opinion, unpopular or not. Unpopular doesn't mean wrong either, just keep that in mind.

 

I enjoy going against the grain and making people uncomfortable, not everyone does and I get that, but don't let social pressure make you self-censor yourself.

 

We all need to be able to talk to each other about the hole in the road in front of us, or we are all going to fall into the damn thing.

 

 

I think it's a line from Voltaire: "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." This is something I believe in wholeheartedly.

 

 

 

Now to address what seems to be a bit of an argument here, the Old Librarium had it's flaws, granted. More than granted, as sometimes it felt like a grueling trial to get past those who were in charge of submission.

 

Were there jackasses in charge of some of it and who commented in the Liber with their own sense of misplaced grandeur? Definitely, but that's not a problem with the Librarium, it's standards or the community in general, that's a failure to monitor and select the right people for the job.

 

Let's compare LE to the Librarium. Now I bring this up not for any political reason, but to compare things. In this instance I'm comparing abuses of power or bad behavior by those in a position of authority. If I'm totally honest, from my own experiences and knowledge, cops may not always be friendly, nice, or even at times willing to hear you out. Too many people misconstrue being blunt and uncompromising with some real true character flaws. However, most are on the level and are quick to force out those that aren't. You may pass through the academy, but that doesn't mean you'll get a good reception at the command you're posted to and bad behavior is usually rooted in the command structure, not the street-officers. It's why there are so, so, so many checks and balances, procedures and reports that come with modern policing. It's why the use of bodycams have skyrocketed.

 

(To make a complete comment, I think Law Enforcement needs to be more transparent and get with the times, admitting your mistakes and highlighting the removal and prosecution of bad apples goes a long way to restoring the public trust, including making all bodycam footage accessible to the public.)

 

In the same manner, if we're talking about anyone chosen to proof-read submissions there are a couple of things you'd need for a system like that. The chosen ones need to be able to collaborate between them, not to be overworked and have a clear set of guidelines to follow when it comes to submissions. If it passes, it get's added. I think an article should also be passed between at least three 'submissions' people anonymously and rubber stamped by each as it also brings individual accountability.

 

You encourage the submissions staff to work with those who submit the work. You don't hold an elite status, but you showcase the best work in your e-zine or what have you. It gives people something to aspire to without making the level of entry too hard to get through, so long as you keep that initial set of quality control checks at a reasonable level. Let people promote their work, or perhaps have those showcase articles be used in other challenges, like set-iron gauntlet challenges at the authors acceptance. Having a 'Castigators Iron Gauntlet' or some-such. There are some fantastic artists out there and a lot of people work far better within a set of restrictions rather than free reign.

 

In a similar manner to LE I think keeping the process transparent would help immensely. Have the submissions work be public, let everyone know what checks have to be passed and keep that current and observable with any entries that are submitted. Perhaps a sub-forum of the Liber, where you can't post or edit unless you're a member of that group, but you can still see what's being worked on and how.

 

I know that's a bit of a long, involved and somewhat emotive set of comparisons for a lot of people but I find it easier to make my case and comparisons when I get more detail and understanding with what I'm saying.

 

All that said, it's a lot of work to implement and I understand a lack of resources to do it when the community for this particular corner of the B&C isn't necessarily all that big or active. It'd have to be a site-wide initiative and I'm not sure how willing anyone is to do this, especially considering that the B&C has always been a 'models first' site, which I will for the umpteenth time disagree with, but it is what it is and it's not up to me to say what it is here for.

 

 

As for changing the entire site to a different format to 'move with the times', I'm not sure that's a wise idea. It's a huge amount of work (so far as I'm aware) and at the moment I don't think it's warranted, especially if we're applying it to the thinktank here over one small corner of the entire site.

 

Also, perhaps it's just me being a dinosaur, but I heavily dislike Reddit. I find it relatively hard to navigate compared to a more traditionally structured board. I also dislike the activist/PC culture of the mods on some boards.

[Brother Tyler]

Note that I split Sete

[Nineswords]

Hi all,

Some very thought-provoking sentiments expressed in this thread. As I am no Longfang board speaking, a lot of the Liber's history is lost to me, and I can only offer some observations of my own experience with my own DIY Chapter which after six years, I'm still fleshing out.

Relative Popularity

 

It seems to me that the Liber Astartes proportionally in terms of popularity is never going to be as popular as other boards on the B&C, namely +++ News and Rumours +++ and +++ Works in Progress +++, and this is reflected as a microcosm of the hobby as a whole. I love the hobby's diversity, but circumstances prevent me from being able to access my miniatures and paints to constantly update whatever faction I'm working on. Quite frankly, I've come to the point where I've realised it's not the bit I'm actually interested in because of limits of my time and resources. Fan fiction, and its framing mechanism by extension, the Liber, helps me focus on the area I derive the most joy out of: dreaming up and writing small bits of flavour text, trying to distill the essence of the faction I am writing about.

I offer it up publicly because a small number of people are engaged with what I produce, and it is a good incentive for me to keep going – as per the spirit of the Liber, they are welcome to also offer suggestions and measured critique. A lot of the time I incorporate said suggestions, sometimes I privately disagree, but the important thing is I am forced to come up with plausible reasons why I must disagree, and see where I can reconcile that information.


Artwork & Production Values

My very tiny corner of the hobby is working on fleshing out a whole faction in my head and try to bring it to life. It requires at its core, an investment of the imagination, and the rest follows: writing and rewriting, editing, and if you so choose, artwork. I take the artwork seriously, because I want it to be reflective of the consideration I've put into writing about my faction. Whilst it is certainly useful to have experience in programmes like Photoshop and InDesign to produce spreads (hopefully) similar to what you'd expect in the real thing; the fact of the matter is that the Liber as a concept is the incentive to overcome my own failings.

I cannot draw, believe it or not, so like most people here, I am limited in that sense. My way around this is to a. Commission a piece. This involves time to brief the illustrator on what you want to do (currently for me that means coming up with the entire Chapter's markings to make sure they are accurate). This also involves money. The money that would otherwise be spend on buying models and paints is instead channeled into paying an illustrator who does this professionally to realise my characters in the same way someone may paint a miniature in the colour scheme of their choice. If I do not have the funds, then I have to do it myself. I've done half a dozen pieces myself and they were all done in Photoshop – essentially collages put together and re-lit and recoloured. I am fortunate in that I have the professional skills to do this, but I am forced way out of my comfort zone and must come up with some method to circumvent the fact I can't draw. This means I cannot do the scenes I really want to, and things come up out differently to how I wanted them because of said limitation. That's okay. Practice makes perfect. Just like the writing, which is a difficult skill in itself.

 

Perhaps that some people are critical with themselves or with others about the standard of their writing. Creative writing requires persistence and an acknowledgement that whatever is offered is not going to be great. I see the Liber like presenting one's first draft, and letting beta readers or editors figure out which bits require some sort of revision. I have been working on my drafts for six years and counting with my own entry. The destination is not important to me, but the journey is. 


Further Thoughts

It appears to me one way of keeping people 'in' and not be scared off is some way of clarifying that opinions are simply that: opinions, and perhaps making it clear that threads in the thread are intended to be WIP pieces rather than a final version, and that discourse is encouraged to rework the drafts into the best version it can be. Once some basic requirements are met, then there is always the Liber Hall of Fame or whatever it is called.

 

Ultimately people can do as they please and as someone who reads many of the threads, in the forum, if I feel the need to comment I will do so. Sometimes I am content to ignore a thread if I don't feel I can offer something useful, but most of the time I am simply inspired by what people come up with. I love the diversity of backgrounds and influences, and it helps me think about how I can improve my own Liber entry. For me, the Liber is my journal, which lets me think about and crystallise ideas before I hop into Google Docs (and then InDesign), and I can look back and see how far I've come, and what I still need to do.

I don't have answers for the problems, but I will say the Liber is a constant source of inspiration for me, and I imagine, others too. If that remains its only function, then it has certainly met its goal in my mind.

Thanks for reading,

Nine

[Brother Tyler]

Getting back to some of the issues addressed in Grey Hunter Ydalir's original post...

 

I was working on a lengthy response, but I realized that we're just treading over ground that we have trod many times before. While some of those discussions are no longer with us (or maybe I just can't find them), some remain available.

 

Yet another rendition of my DIY Chapter (2009) (this link goes directly to my intervention post)

Any advice outside the guides (2011)

Paradigm (2011)

Critiquing and Commenting (2011)

An open letter to the regulars of the Liber Astartes (2012)

DIY Guidelines: why and how

On Do It Yourself (DIY) Discussions (2013)

 

Note that all of the above were found by looking for posts I made in the Liber Astartes forum with the word "feedback." There are probably other similar discussions, including some in which I didn't participate.

 

The cycle of feedback and revision (and improvement!) remains. What is changed, or what is supposed to have changed, is the tone. The decrease in activity herein can partially be attributed to the exodus of members that didn't like that shift in tone, who wanted to preserve the gatekeeping beatdowns that were administered to those that didn't conform. Frankly, good riddance to those people. The majority of hobbyists were able to adapt to a more respectful atmosphere, however, and the site and community are better for it. Realistically, that's only a small fraction of the reason for the diminishment of activity in this category. The larger reasons have nothing whatsoever to do with that. Other reasons also explain why many of the old time Liberites have left, having nothing to do with wanting to be "brutally honest" with people whose work they found wanting.

 

Ultimately, hobbyists should challenge an author's ideas and provide supported arguments for suggestions they might have for improving an article. Once an author makes it clear that they've made a decision about something, though, courtesy demands that we respect that decision (even if we disagree with it).

[Lysimachus]

If I can put forward another old-timer's opinion, I'd add a couple of things:

 

 

Firstly, many moons ago, before I had the privilege of serving as a Mod, I had the privilege of serving as a Lexicanium (for those that don't remember, they were the team that looked after and sought out and approved new articles for the Librarium). And I still consider that role to have been a privilege. The vast majority of work I did personally was suggesting fixes to purely grammatical issues in what were otherwise excellent articles. I would like to say that I don't think any of us had the deliberate intention of creating an elitist or exclusive atmosphere within the Liber and Librarium. That said, I have to agree with Brother Tyler that mistakes were made regarding the purpose and methodology of the Librarium. I made them myself once or twice. I can remember one submission I didn't approve, a blue/white quartered Chapter using a red badge of a sideways-on bull… called the Red Bulls. The fluff itself was very, very minimal. Now at the time I considered this as a bit of an over-themed joke and not suited to what the Librarium was all about, and so I suggested to the author a few edits to try and expand his ideas (a little) and bed the Chapter with a bit more subtlety into the setting eg. change the name to Crimson Taurans or something. Looking back now I can see that maybe I should have just approved it. If the author was happy with a (very obviously) Red Bull themed Chapter, why not? It was quite funny and a striking looking scheme, regardless of whether it totally killed my personal suspension of disbelief, and for many DIY creators that's really all they want. Anyway, that story is probably getting a bit off the point. All I'm trying to say is that it was never the goal to become evil overlords that shut people down on a whim or stamped on their creativity, which sadly seems to be how the Liber/Librarium team came to be viewed and is mostly remembered. We - well, I can only really speak for myself so I - just wanted to help people develop their Chapters. I think it's important to clarify that.

 

 

On Forum traffic: we make the forum what it is. If you say you want a return to more people commenting on articles, then do it. Set a trend. Give feedback (it doesn't matter if you agree or disagree with an author's ideas, as long as you're polite and offer something constructive). Others will follow that example, including commenting on your projects.

 

 

On formats: Personally, I love IA/IT/IWhatevers. I've written loooaaads. Many are in the Showcase. A few are quite good. But I don't think anyone should be limited to any particular type of article, as different things work better for explaining different groups. As an example, check out the Wretched by Gulag at the top of the Liber Chaotica, I just saw it today and it's got a real 'fireside ghost story' feel that works beautifully as a way to describe a renegade force!

 

 

On criticism: If you post, you're asking for others' opinions. Don't expect everyone to immediately love what you've written. Be prepared to listen to what people say. Take it in. Think about whether they have a point. But after you've done that, don't feel obliged to change stuff that you want to keep. The author is the boss of his thread (within forum rules, obviously) and if he insists "My Chapter once beat the Ultramarines, Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Dark Angels all at once in a straight up fight" then in his thread they did. If you've respectfully disagreed with the author, had your objection rejected and don't like it, then just stay out of his thread from that point on. Equally though, to use the same example, don't have your Chapter beat on the big 4 and expect everyone to stick around and tell you how great you are.

 

 

On the Showcase/Librarium: As mentioned, I've got a lot of articles in the Showcase (perhaps more than any other contributor?) so I hope I can speak with some authority on this. I don't attribute that total to any great skill on my part as a writer. Rather, it's because I can shrug and say "yup, I think that's ready to submit". It doesn't have to be flawless and perfect and universally loved by every single person that reads it. People may still have questions. (In fact, if I understand right, that's why Showcase articles all include links to their discussion articles, so people can still raise issues they've noticed after reading them?) But overall I'm happy with it and it meets the requirements that Bro T mentioned above. When you view it that way, there are stacks of damn good articles in the Liber that could be submitted!

 

And remember, being submitted to the Showcase doesn't mean it's finished if you don't want it to be, you can keep tweaking it forever if you like!

 

 

I think that sums up my feelings on most things. Thanks for reading.

[Ace Debonair]

On the Showcase/Librarium: As mentioned, I've got a lot of articles in the Showcase (perhaps more than any other contributor?) so I hope I can speak with some authority on this. I don't attribute that total to any great skill on my part as a writer. Rather, it's because I can shrug and say "yup, I think that's ready to submit". It doesn't have to be flawless and perfect and universally loved by every single person that reads it.

This concept is so horrifically alien to me that I think I might actually be descended from the III Legion.

I am slowly getting better at it, though - I did submit a Chapter to the Tabula a few days ago, and might even forward it to the Showcase next time I have a day off.

 

I'm also 99.99% certain nobody on this forum has ever thought of you as a Tyrannical force of Oppression, Lysimachus.

 

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

 

 

Definitely, but that's not a problem with the Librarium, it's standards or the community in general, that's a failure to monitor and select the right people for the job.

Yes, it was definitely a supervision problem. That said, there were multiple efforts to curb the gatekeeping, and the guidance given was very clear. However, the guidance was met with considerable resistance each time. Hence the ultimate decision to shut the Librarium down.

 

*SNIP*

This was very much how the Librarium was supposed to work.

 

As it is, this discussion points out the fact that there is considerably less feedback being given in DIY discussions. Given that, what pool would we draw potential article editors from?

 

The current arrangement is much more

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

 

On the Showcase/Librarium: As mentioned, I've got a lot of articles in the Showcase (perhaps more than any other contributor?) so I hope I can speak with some authority on this. I don't attribute that total to any great skill on my part as a writer. Rather, it's because I can shrug and say "yup, I think that's ready to submit". It doesn't have to be flawless and perfect and universally loved by every single person that reads it.

This concept is so horrifically alien to me that I think I might actually be descended from the III Legion.

I am slowly getting better at it, though - I did submit a Chapter to the Tabula a few days ago, and might even forward it to the Showcase next time I have a day off.

 

I'm also 99.99% certain nobody on this forum has ever thought of you as a Tyrannical force of Oppression, Lysimachus.

 

 

 

It might blow everyone's mind, but I totally agree with Ace here. That's sarcasm, I usually tend to agree with him, funny as I'm generally unfriendly and he's friendly as hell.

 

Lysimachus you are far from the tyrannical stereotype that is being discussed here. At that point in time the community standards were higher so rejecting a 'joke' chapter I think is fair play.

 

Remember that fools seldom doubt themselves. The idiots of the world are perpetually sure of themselves and their actions and those who have a mark of intelligence are usually further down the path of low-self esteem, worth and doubting the quality of their own work. While it's good as someone who has a measure of authority to qualify our own decisions and reasonings, to second guess yourself this far down the line is nonesense. If you made a mistake, it's a teachable moment and you learn from it, making sure you take the right lessons away, and move forward.

 

Luckily, it was the Red Bulls (I remember that chapter, bloody hell. I don't think I was particularly impressed either), and you didn't hurt someone, or worse allow someone else to be hurt as a result. I think you can safely sleep at night with that one. 

 

But I understand where you're coming from. We all do, I think. You're in good company.

Edited December 5, 2020 by Daimyo-Phaeron Lenoch
no politics of any kind

[Ace Debonair]

It might blow everyone's mind, but I totally agree with Ace here. That's sarcasm, I usually tend to agree with him, funny as I'm generally unfriendly and he's friendly as hell.

 

Hell is notoriously unfriendly, from all the reviews I've read of the place.

 

 

Bring the gaming side in. Create online tournaments, painting competitions and army builds that either require or reward people to have a fleshed out Liber-stamped/worked through article along with their list/models.

It's funny you should say that - In my head I've been kicking an idea around for a thread that can be roughly summed up as "Liber Astartes kill-teams running around and hunting monsters, via the medium of play-by-post moves on a virtual battlefield".

 

Broadly, the idea was taken from a game held long ago (almost a decade back, I think) in the Space Wolves forum, where packs of marines went out hunting Fenrisian Kraken, and there was much telling of sagas and stories before and after moves. Granted, it's the Space Wolves, so a lot of it was about how drunk they were, but the idea could easily be leveraged for a Liber task force, replacing "staggering from the inhuman amount of ale consumed" to "behaving appropriately for their Chapter and/or adjusting their behaviour to better suit the Legio's requirements".

 

Adding a requirement for people to have posted and/or recently updated information for the Chapter they're representing wouldn't be too hard.

 

Of course I'd have to work out all the rules, and the terrain, and all the other minutiae of setting up such an endeavour, which will probably take me a whole year or two, but the idea's been there for a little while.

Edited November 28, 2020 by Ace Debonair

[Machine God]

Ooh I come back from a long absence to have a check of The Liber and find a new thread, nice!

 

Some lots of points about a silent Liber.

 

I'm more a fan of IA posts but that is my preference. But I do need to wrench my chapter lore/fluff out of my noggin and down onto the screen... Maybe some day. Kudos to braver souls.

 

The bit I don't like is how the B&C got changed around and Lore isn't at the bottom of the page anymore. I go to where I think Amicus is and find The Forge and Rules is at the bottom. No doubt Brother Tyler can post a link to enlighten me.

 

Keep up the good work. 

 

(Edit: Typo)

Edited December 24, 2020 by Machine God

[Brother Tyler]

The bit I don't like is how the B&C got changed around and Lore isn't at the bottom of the page anymore. I go to where I think Amicus is and find The Forge and Rules is at the bottom. No doubt Brother Tyler can post a link to enlighten me.

link

[Brother Tyler]

Note that I split the tangential discussion about the idea(s) for a play-by-post type of Liber participation into a separate topic here.