Unit of the Week: Terminator Squad

[Skywrath]

Welcome to the Grey Knight unit of the Week, where we analyse the Grey Knights units strength's and weaknesses. The unit for this week is the mighty Terminator Squad. Each week a different unit will appear, with the idea being that we discuss how best to use that model on the battlefield.

 

Questions:

 

1. General first thoughts and impressions of the unit?

2. How would you use said unit, to compliment a list, or to build a list around? 

3. What other units/strategems synergize with it to give it that extra shine?

4. Miscellaneous use/Tips and Tricks?

 

BONUS: Creative ways to use units that wouldn't be obvious at first. 

Edited November 7, 2020 by Skywrath

[Reskin]

The backbone, the heavy lifter, the beat stick.

The one and only, Terminator (Troops Choice)

 

My first impressions of these guys, way back when I started the hobby were something like "gosh their sculpts look sick!" They have some fantasticly designed weapons and armour

that really bring the units too life. And their spare bits are invaluable!

Anyway, enough of that. My first impressions of how they interact with the 9th edition of the game is a positive one. Objective secured, multi-wound models with a 2+ save usually a 1+ save in cover really helps their survivability. The invul save of 5++ helps somewhat. But more on that later.

They are relatively slow moving, which kinda sucks but their threat range is quite substantial in combination with psychic powers and stratgems.

 

There's multiple ways you can incorporate the terminators into your army lists. At smaller point versions of the game they can be your bread and butter filling most of your army list and carrying a bulk of the work load. 2 units of 5 in a 1000pt incursion game is 40% of your army, and they pack quite a punch at that level and size of play. So you can build around having multiple small squads for obsec duty, or larger blobs to control the mid board or even teleport strike them into your opponents backfield lines and chew through units. Fully customizable from the Grey Knight weapon options. 2000pt games of strike force allow you to flesh out and field larger units of 10, that really have some staying power.

 

Characters really help the units punch well above their weight, a librarian or chaplain, even a apothecary teleport striking with them for use of one of the Dominus discipline psychic powers really goes a long way, armoured resilience, edict imperator, or ethereal manipulation are great psychic synergies.

Equipping them with hammerhand and halberds allows them to reliably wound anything, and reducing everyone to the standard 4++ invul if they have it.

 

They obviously have their terminator only stratagems which are super helpful, both offensive and defensive variants. Great in most circumstances. Which are also pretty straightforward.

The psychic powers that really help these units shine both defensively and offensively would be, Hammerhand +1 to wound. Sanctuary +1 to their invul save giving them a 4++ invul. Bringing them inline with stormshields now. Armoured resilience -1 to wound them, which means you don't have to use that other stratagem or spend cp. Edict imperator is also helpful, if they move and aren't in range to charge, use them for a double move. Or just good old gate of infinity to move them anywhere on the board.

 

My personal tips and tricks I would share would be;

-In smaller incursion games, keep them cheap, don't pay for falchions or the hammers, Your points are scarce and you don't need them. Nor give them too many special guns.

-Keep them 5 man in smaller games, you can only gate 1 unit, and they move super slow. So edict imperator helps get another unit across the board if you have to.

 

-In larger games, fill the squads out or dont if you are wanting MSU. Throw a hammer on the Justicar if needed.

-Make sure to give one of the squads Gate of Infinity (incase your characters die) Or all your units if you so wanted. But having built in redundancies is a must.

-Use them to hold the mid board objectives.

-Use them to protect a character.

Edited November 7, 2020 by Reskin

[The Woodsman]

 

My first impressions of these guys, way back when I started the hobby were something like "gosh their sculpts look sick!" They have some fantasticly designed weapons and armour

that really bring the units too life. 

 

 

 

The first 40K models I bought by myself were the old metal Grey Knight Terminators. Even back then they were upwards of 70$CAD, but good gosh were they stunning. Terminators in general are just about as badass you can get, amongst a bunch of certified badasses, the Adeptus Astartes. Grey Knight Terminators take this to a whole new level. 

 

There's not much I can say that hasn't been said already by Reskin, but there are a couple things I'd like to point out. While a solid list can be built around a backbone of Terminators, and I feel one should go for one or other of the Troops choices, they do need to be backed up by "cheap" power armored Grey Knights. Grey Knights are already outnumbered by pretty much everybody but Custodes, and as mentioned by Reskin, they have quite slow movement, which can really be capitalized on by a canny opponent. Granted, you can Gate a unit and Edict another, but that's only two units per turn. I'd personally like to try out a "Terminator spam" list, focusing on 4 5-man units that come in from Deep Strike with a First to the Fray Warlord, but you'd need enough other units that can be effective starting on the board for this to work. My point is while they are a punchy, resilient and versatile (in some aspects) unit, they need proper support to function, or they get swamped and their 2+ save doesn't really account to much. 

 

Another thing is, I'm not sure I'd bother with psi weapons on terminators. Just the one on a unit of 5, or two on a 10-man unit, doesn't really justify the CP spent to boost the S/AP and hit-roll that you'd need to get the most out of those weapons. If you want to go down that route you're better off with Paladins. Overall, I think they are best used as a Troops backbone for which you build the remaining portion of the list to support, or if a little point-starved, as a baby "Paladin-bomb" - though I think (speaking only from theory, I mainly run power armored dudes and vehicles) , the first option to be the better. 

[librisrouge]

I think that the basic terminators are in weird place right now, thanks to the marine rules. They do, typically, 50% better in melee than strike squads, thanks to Shock Assault. They do the same damage at range as a strike squad, if the strike squad is within 12" or held still, thanks to Bolter Drill. They cost about 70% more than the strike squad though. Offensively, the strike squad is simply better because it is cheaper. A similarly costed strike squad will dish out more attacks and more shots.

 

Where the terminator squads shines is on defense, which makes a lot of sense. 2 wounds (fingers crossed for 3 wounds soon) means they can either take twice the firepower to drop or at least force the enemy to dedicate superior weaponry to the job. An invulnerable save means that the best AP weapons are wasting their full potential. Use of cover or Tides means that you might not just be one armor save better, you might actually get to stick to a 2+ save for longer. Stick a terminator unit in cover near an objective with Tide of Shadows activated and any army will have to work hard to get them off of it.

 

The stratagems only reinforce this. While terminators have a strat that gives them +1 to hit, the shinning star of stratagems they can use gives them -1 to damage. Suck it plasmaguns and autocannons. In many cases, this will literally double the durability of a terminator unit. The biggest downside to this stratagem is the presence of Paladins, who will typically be the priority for its use.

 

I'd recommend strike squads in more instances than not, compared to terminators. Simply being cheaper makes them great candidates for objective holders. That being said, Gating or Surging a terminator unit forward onto a midfield objective is probably a very good use for them and a ten man squad of termis is something that will be both good at holding objectives and a legitimate threat to whatever wants to take it.

 

 

The first 40K models I bought by myself were the old metal Grey Knight Terminators.

 

Same here.

[Reskin]

After much back and forth with Skywrath on Terminators vs Strike Squads. And having been an avid PAGK user for the last 5 editions, except for a unit of paladins in 5th. I can say I love my PAGK and hold no bias.

 

However, after using both now in 9th edition simply out of necessity. (Getting stomped in games)

 

The termies come out ahead ever so slightly. For a few reasons.

 

 

They cost about 70% more than the strike squad though. Offensively, the strike squad is simply better because it is cheaper. A similarly costed strike squad will dish out more attacks and more shots.

 

librisrouge how did you come to that conclusion. I'm no mathhammer expert but 5 basic termies are 190pts and 5 basic Strikes are 100pts. Thats an increase of 190% (Correct me if I'm wrong.)

 

5 termies will always be shooting 4 shots from their storm bolters for a total of 20 and 10 shots from 5 strikes. So on Turn 1 the termies are way more efficient than strikes if both moved. If both remained stationary, its a draw. 5 termies also have double the attacks, double the wounds and a 5++ invul. So if both went against AP-3 weaponry the termies get a better save. Essentially by that math. The termies are 10% cheaper. The negative here is the 5" move as opposed to 6" on the strikes.

 

5 basic termies vs 10 basic strikes is 190pts to 200pts now for the 10 strikes. Yes, the strikes now are pumping 40 storm bolter shots at a target on the first turn, ONLY if they don't move. But lets keep it fair, and say both the units moved. It's still 20 shots from the 5 termies and 20 shots from the 10 strikes. Lets move onto melee. 5 termies in the first round of combat are doing are 16 attacks in total. 5x2+5 for shock assault +1 for the justicar. 10 strikes are doing 10x1+10 for shock assault +1 for the justicar. for a total of 21 attacks. Both units now have 10 wounds in total. But the termies win out in defence. For 10 pts more offence when within 12" of a target yes the 10 strikes come out on top for shooting, and the 5 extra attacks when charging.

 

But the strikes really fall to a stiff breeze and that means their effectiveness really drops quickly and drastically. Where as the termies effectiveness has a slower decline. I will agree with you librisrouge that the termies get redoubtable defence which is -1 to the damage of weapons. When used on the 5 termies its only 1CP. Soooooo good imo. A a lot of my meta is D3 or 2wound or greater weapons. And that's what the game is moving towards now anyway I think.

 

As a unit of 5 termies vs a unit of 10 strikes. I'm now leaning more towards the termies. Partly for the stats stated above, but also the fact that the termies have use of way more stratagems. In fact, the strikes get none really but transhuman and steady advance. And there's no way in hell I want to use that much CP on PAGK. 

Edited November 9, 2020 by Reskin

[librisrouge]

 

 

They cost about 70% more than the strike squad though. Offensively, the strike squad is simply better because it is cheaper. A similarly costed strike squad will dish out more attacks and more shots.

 

librisrouge how did you come to that conclusion. I'm no mathhammer expert but 5 basic termies are 190pts and 5 basic Strikes are 100pts. Thats an increase of 190% (Correct me if I'm wrong.)

I came to that conclusion because I didn't want to look it up at the time. I figured that under estimating it was better than over estimating it and 90% more isn't too bad when I guessed 70% more.

 

5 termies will always be shooting 4 shots from their storm bolters for a total of 20 and 10 shots from 5 strikes. So on Turn 1 the termies are way more efficient than strikes if both moved. A very important distinction that might not always be true. You also have to take the cost into account again. Strikes may be dishing out 1/2 the shots but their also about 1/2 the points (as you correctly corrected me) so it makes sense. However, what if they don't move or you use the stratagem to let them move and rapid fire? Well, now you've got a lot of shots. If both remained stationary, its a draw. Except one cost 1/2 as much for the same damage potential. 5 termies also have double the attacks Until shock assault is calculated in, double the wounds and a 5++ invul. So if both went against AP-3 weaponry the termies get a better save. Essentially by that math. The termies are 10% cheaper.But only on the defensive (as I readily agree with), shock assault, standing still (or being within 12"), or having the same numbers mitigates offensive differences. The negative here is the 5" move as opposed to 6" on the strikes. I think I forgot the movement speed in my own write up. Another, ableit small, point for strikes.

 

5 basic termies vs 10 basic strikes is 190pts to 200pts now for the 10 strikes. Yes, the strikes now are pumping 40 storm bolter shots at a target on the first turn, ONLY if they don't move. Or use the stratagem that is almost purpose designed for this exact scenario. But lets keep it fair, and say both the units moved. Why? If I'm taking strikes, their job is probably to stick to objectives. They'll be the least mobile part of my army. It's still 20 shots from the 5 termies and 20 shots from the 10 strikes. Lets move onto melee. 5 termies in the first round of combat are doing are 16 attacks in total. 5x2+5 for shock assault +1 for the justicar. 10 strikes are doing 10x1+10 for shock assault +1 for the justicar. for a total of 21 attacks. Both units now have 10 wounds in total. But the termies win out in defence. For 10 pts more offence when within 12" of a target yes the 10 strikes come out on top for shooting, and the 5 extra attacks when charging. I think that we're both agreeing that the who is better on attack argument comes down to certain circumstances.

 

But the strikes really fall to a stiff breeze and that means their effectiveness really drops quickly and drastically. Where as the termies effectiveness has a slower decline. I will agree with you librisrouge that the termies get redoubtable defence which is -1 to the damage of weapons. When used on the 5 termies its only 1CP. Soooooo good imo. A a lot of my meta is D3 or 2wound or greater weapons. And that's what the game is moving towards now anyway I think. ​Redoubtable defense existing is perhaps the greatest defense of terminators that the army has. It is an amazingly good stratagem that is a big part of the reason Paladins work. I think it is also a good reason to mix strikes and terminators (particularly if you're taking Paladins), you can't use it on multiple units.

 

As a unit of 5 termies vs a unit of 10 strikes. I'm now leaning more towards the termies. Partly for the stats stated above, but also the fact that the termies have use of way more stratagems. In fact, the strikes get none really but transhuman and steady advance. And there's no way in hell I want to use that much CP on PAGK. 

I hope that didn't come of as confrontational. Not my purpose, please believe me. I think you make some excellent points but in replying I think I came up a good point in support of strikes...they can hold two objectives. If you're spending 200 points on termis, you're getting one unit. However, you're getting two units of strikes. That's two objectives they can sit on. With how objective heavy 9th edition is, that could be a big deal.

 

Still, I think we both agreed on how tough terminators can be. I cannot wait for them to have 3 wounds. It'll dramatically change the game for Grey Knights.

[Reskin]

Nah I didn’t take it that way. I think you make some great arguments.

I love strikes, but the staying power of termies just make me lean towards them more at this point in time. Subjective to rules and codex changes in the coming months. Who knows where we will be.

I don’t know how you play, so I can only speak for my group. When an opponent shoots at a unit. They fully intend to take that unit off the board. They don't spread shots thin between units and poke here and there. They want to kill whole units to stop return fire and or charges in the following turns.

For this reason, I’ve moved over to termies. As I previously mentioned. You are correct in stating that objectives are super important this edition. So naturally being able to sit on them for long periods of time is key.

In my meta, everyone just kills my strikes so easily. Even when I used to have a 10 man unit. It’s target no.1.
Also, now that the apothecary is free to heal whoever he wants, reviving a terminator is so much more worth it then reviving one strike.

Ultimately both units are good. How you want to play and build your list is completely up to you. And what works in your current meta or group. You might find you agree with me or you might find you have success with something else.

Edited November 10, 2020 by Reskin

[Reskin]

I should add, that unlike other factions. Our troops are unique in that from our lowly strike squad to terminators and onto characters every single one can be fully kitted out the same.

 

So whereas other factions may take minimal troops choices and detachments that have minimum troop slots.

Great knights don’t suffer from this, taking more troops whether it be terminators or strikes will only be beneficial.

[The Woodsman]

I should add, that unlike other factions. Our troops are unique in that from our lowly strike squad to terminators and onto characters every single one can be fully kitted out the same.

 

So whereas other factions may take minimal troops choices and detachments that have minimum troop slots.

Great knights don’t suffer from this, taking more troops whether it be terminators or strikes will only be beneficial.

 

Agreed, Grey Knights lists can be successfully built around a lot of troops, which can fill many tactical roles. Few armies can emulate this, Harlequins and Drukhari come to mind, but even then they are far less versatile and resilient and require Transports to be of any real use. More power to the sons of Titan.

[Gnomeo]

Terminators this is historically what grey knights were until 3rd edition brought power armour. There have been some great points made so far. Would like to point out something that is often over looked about terminators (and power armour but thats a different week). Combat squads!!! The ability that no one uses until you realise its flexibility. Take that 10man terminator unit you know you can hold an objective with it and also place 40 s6 -1 2dmg shots anywhere within 24" then if you add strats its brutal we all know this. Now lets say your opponent doesn't really have anything that warrants that level of fire power. BOOM combat squad!!

2nd option gate forward with astral aim behind something obscuring 24" gets nicely in to the deployment zone if you go 1st. For that sweet psybolt ammo.

Turn 2 the threat has been killed time for the combat squad stratagem.

 

I know people compare PAGK to the terminators and say how the fire power is more points efficient and there is steady advance for if the unit moved. However fury of the 1st so the whole unit hits on 2's!!!! Its the stuff of dreams if you are using psybolt you really want to maximise that output.

[Reskin]

Usually Terminators are accompanied by a supporting character though. With either an aura for rerolls or a relic such as the augurium scrolls. Or vice-versa where the termies are escorting a character.

 

If your character didn't make the charge and your terminators did, then using that 1CP to hit on 2's in melee I would think is worth it. Not so much for shooting their stormbolters though.

Unless you are against t-shirt hordes any wounds with the stormbolters are a bonus to the real threat. 2 Wound smites are much more reliable. They essentially can't be stopped 99% of the time. Melee is where its at for termies. No expensive unit likes to sit there and take a barrage of firepower.

 

And as mentioned, don't give them hammers. Or special ranged weapons for that matter. When writing lists and adding units, its best to wait until you've added everything you want before spending points on what is essentially a luxury. 1 hammer on the Justicar, may be worth it with left over points as he has the additional attack to make up for hitting on 4's. Usually he has rerolls close by.

 

Halberds are currently the way to go. With the meta moving to T5 models, wounding on 4's is fine. With perhaps hammerhand to wound on 3's against T5 is a bonus. Don't quote me, but I speculate now before the release of our 9th edition codex that the Halberd will represent the standard Space Marine power axe and be brought up to +2str. making it even better. Who knows, if swords are +1str -3AP. Sword might be the "new halberds" once the codex is released. Just as what halberds are now.

Edited November 16, 2020 by Reskin

[Gnomeo]

 

Unless you are against t-shirt hordes any wounds with the stormbolters are a bonus to the real threat. 2 Wound smites are much more reliable. They essentially can't be stopped 99% of the time. Melee is where its at for termies. No expensive unit likes to sit there and take a barrage of firepower.

 

I agree mortal wounds are great for us however I dont think they are our win condition. Though this further reinforces my mention of the combat squad rule and taking a unit of 10 terminators so you can adjust on the fly. If you fully buff a unit with all strats its an average of 21 wounds against a knight. This means you can gate psybolt eliminate threat then combat squad.

[Reskin]

What are the parameters you are using to get 21 wounds on average to a knight?

[Skywrath]

Unless you are against t-shirt hordes any wounds with the stormbolters are a bonus to the real threat. 2 Wound smites are much more reliable. They essentially can't be stopped 99% of the time. Melee is where its at for termies. No expensive unit likes to sit there and take a barrage of firepower.

 

I agree mortal wounds are great for us however I dont think they are our win condition. Though this further reinforces my mention of the combat squad rule and taking a unit of 10 terminators so you can adjust on the fly. If you fully buff a unit with all strats its an average of 21 wounds against a knight. This means you can gate psybolt eliminate threat then combat squad.

 

Outline in blue/bold. With regards to the blue text, sorry, I can't see myself agreeing with that statement for two reasons. First one is that in order to get 2W smites we will have to switch the tide over (which isn't a problem), and when we could do so much more damage in convergence. I see the smite tide useful for two things - to kill demons, or (using my favourite example) to kill off pesky Bladeguard. I see it as an "execute" button of sorts. Even then, aside from those two very specific conditions, you would be better off either in convergence for shooting, or fury for melee, especially with your quote of: Melee it's where it's at for terminators. Now to build a list that makes us have full use of the melee tide, yay!

 

So with the above logic in question, why would you write the second bolded bit, which contradicts the blue text? I'm actually genuinely confused.

[Gnomeo]

Hi skywrath my 1st paragraph was a quote from reskin but I failed to use the quote function correctly on my phone.

 

My full thought on GK as a whole not just terminators is that if you focus on a single aspect then I believe grey knights are being played wrong. I feel there strength is they are good nearly every phase and that you need to maximise your strengths per opponent. Further to this feel more than other armies GK benefit from thinking ahead eg. Tide of escalation for most of psychic phase then go convergence to psybolt twice in a turn is insane.

 

As for your comment on melee yes terminators are great in melee but you lose the shooting unless you lose gate. So I feel the best use for melee (opponent dependent) is for extra movement and finishing stuff off.

 

Reskin as for 21 wounds on a knight it is full buff so hitting on 2's with fury of 1st and reroll 1's. Then rerolling wounds with bring down the beast. Yes I appreciate it is 5cp however through in some smites or a charge and it is a dead knight.

[Reskin]

 

Unless you are against t-shirt hordes any wounds with the stormbolters are a bonus to the real threat. 2 Wound smites are much more reliable. They essentially can't be stopped 99% of the time. Melee is where its at for termies. No expensive unit likes to sit there and take a barrage of firepower.

 

I agree mortal wounds are great for us however I dont think they are our win condition. Though this further reinforces my mention of the combat squad rule and taking a unit of 10 terminators so you can adjust on the fly. If you fully buff a unit with all strats its an average of 21 wounds against a knight. This means you can gate psybolt eliminate threat then combat squad.

 

Outline in blue/bold. With regards to the blue text, sorry, I can't see myself agreeing with that statement for two reasons. First one is that in order to get 2W smites we will have to switch the tide over (which isn't a problem), and when we could do so much more damage in convergence. I see the smite tide useful for two things - to kill demons, or (using my favourite example) to kill off pesky Bladeguard. I see it as an "execute" button of sorts. Even then, aside from those two very specific conditions, you would be better off either in convergence for shooting, or fury for melee, especially with your quote of: Melee it's where it's at for terminators. Now to build a list that makes us have full use of the melee tide, yay!

 

So with the above logic in question, why would you write the second bolded bit, which contradicts the blue text? I'm actually genuinely confused.

 

That's fine you don't have to agree. However from actual experience, the psychic phase is the most reliable phase for me. Never once did I say we needed to be in Tide of Fury to make melee awesome. We don't even need it. A chaplain allowing us to reroll the random damage roll for weapons would be a sufficient buff. But regardless you don't need it.

Or the extra -1AP to nemesis weapons, but again. not needed to excel in melee.

 

What the heck are you saying... we definitely don't need the extra +1 wound from Tide of Escalation... WE ALREADY DO A FLAT 3 DAMAGE to daemons.

 

I will definitely disagree with the whole Tide of Convergence theory... Look at any of my lists.. special weapons are a luxury. But regardless of my personal preference. You expect me to believe paying for all these special weapons and using tide of convergence is really that strong? It doesn't affect stormbolters unless we spend 2CP for psybolt ammo.

 

And a str7 psycannon doesn't need extra strength. The REAL issue with our weapons is the PURE lack of AP. And psychic onslaught to get the extra -1AP only affects 1 unit. So a MAXIMUM of 4 weapons. In combination with the Tide of Convergence and psybolt on ammo on the same unit to really maximise its shooting. That's 4CP for -2AP and -1AP shots.

 

In a game that is all about getting that cover save. But lets say for the sake of argument you also add astral aim to that unit, stripping the enemies cover save. That awesome man.. You now have to go through the opponents armour save. Could be a 1+ to a 3+ save, (termies with stormshields.) Or 1 units with a 5+ to its save. How is that more effective them simply casting smite 5 times to do 10 mortal wounds that go right through any of its saves? And through in a vortex of doom, and its only 1CP to 3 dice it, use a librarian with sanctic shard for an effect +2 to the cast with a free re roll to ensure it gets to 12. Or use 1 extra CP empyrean surge for +1 to cast. 6 MORTAL wounds from vortex, average of 3+2 for that characters other cast of smite.

 

Until our ranged weapon profiles drastically change. You will never convince me otherwise.

 

In fact I'll quote myself....

 

 

...special weapons are a luxury...

 

They actually aren't even a luxury. Flamers used to be good. But ARE THE MOST EXPENSIVE of the three choices. The feeling I have when purchasing special weapons is like this... "sure I'll upgrade to a large fries" knowing full well I'll eat a handle full of chips and throw the rest in the bin.

 

It's like, I have 8 points spare.. or whatever, sure I cant get more units I may as well tac a few on and laugh when they do 1 damage.

Edited November 16, 2020 by Reskin

[Skywrath]

 

 

Unless you are against t-shirt hordes any wounds with the stormbolters are a bonus to the real threat. 2 Wound smites are much more reliable. They essentially can't be stopped 99% of the time. Melee is where its at for termies. No expensive unit likes to sit there and take a barrage of firepower.

 

I agree mortal wounds are great for us however I dont think they are our win condition. Though this further reinforces my mention of the combat squad rule and taking a unit of 10 terminators so you can adjust on the fly. If you fully buff a unit with all strats its an average of 21 wounds against a knight. This means you can gate psybolt eliminate threat then combat squad.

 

Outline in blue/bold. With regards to the blue text, sorry, I can't see myself agreeing with that statement for two reasons. First one is that in order to get 2W smites we will have to switch the tide over (which isn't a problem), and when we could do so much more damage in convergence. I see the smite tide useful for two things - to kill demons, or (using my favourite example) to kill off pesky Bladeguard. I see it as an "execute" button of sorts. Even then, aside from those two very specific conditions, you would be better off either in convergence for shooting, or fury for melee, especially with your quote of: Melee it's where it's at for terminators. Now to build a list that makes us have full use of the melee tide, yay!

 

So with the above logic in question, why would you write the second bolded bit, which contradicts the blue text? I'm actually genuinely confused.

 

That's fine you don't have to agree. However from actual experience, the psychic phase is the most reliable phase for me. Never once did I say we needed to be in Tide of Fury to make melee awesome. We don't even need it. A chaplain allowing us to reroll the random damage roll for weapons would be a sufficient buff. But regardless you don't need it.

Or the extra -1AP to nemesis weapons, but again. not needed to excel in melee.

 

What the heck are you saying... we definitely don't need the extra +1 wound from Tide of Escalation... WE ALREADY DO A FLAT 3 DAMAGE to daemons.

 

I will definitely disagree with the whole Tide of Convergence theory... Look at any of my lists.. special weapons are a luxury. But regardless of my personal preference. You expect me to believe paying for all these special weapons and using tide of convergence is really that strong? It doesn't affect stormbolters unless we spend 2CP for psybolt ammo.

 

And a str7 psycannon doesn't need extra strength. The REAL issue with our weapons is the PURE lack of AP. And psychic onslaught to get the extra -1AP only affects 1 unit. So a MAXIMUM of 4 weapons. In combination with the Tide of Convergence and psybolt on ammo on the same unit to really maximise its shooting. That's 4CP for -2AP and -1AP shots.

 

In a game that is all about getting that cover save. But lets say for the sake of argument you also add astral aim to that unit, stripping the enemies cover save. That awesome man.. You now have to go through the opponents armour save. Could be a 1+ to a 3+ save, (termies with stormshields.) Or 1 units with a 5+ to its save. How is that more effective them simply casting smite 5 times to do 10 mortal wounds that go right through any of its saves? And through in a vortex of doom, and its only 1CP to 3 dice it, use a librarian with sanctic shard for an effect +2 to the cast with a free re roll to ensure it gets to 12. Or use 1 extra CP empyrean surge for +1 to cast. 6 MORTAL wounds from vortex, average of 3+2 for that characters other cast of smite.

 

Until our ranged weapon profiles drastically change. You will never convince me otherwise.

 

 

For starters, 4 mortal wounds to demons is better than 3 mortal wounds, I don't think I have to explain the maths behind that logic. If you are fighting death guard for instance, every mortal wound you can throw their way counts, regardless of their 5++ FNP. No, what I was talking about is the complete lack of logic behind the 2MW smites against things that are NOT demons. There is a place for 2MW smites, but as I pointed out, convergence will probably be our main tide. 

 

Like you said, I have to disagree with your logic there - I'd ask that you try my recommendations for future games, then you will see what I mean. Keeping an open mind is more important than saying convince me.

Edited November 16, 2020 by Skywrath

[Reskin]

For starters, 4 mortal wounds to demons is better than 3 mortal wounds, I don't think I have to explain the maths behind that logic. If you are fighting death guard for instance, every mortal wound you can throw their way counts, regardless of their 5++ FNP. No, what I was talking about is the complete lack of logic behind the 2MW smites against things that are NOT demons. There is a place for 2MW smites, but as I pointed out, convergence will probably be our main tide. 

 

Like you said, I have to disagree with your logic there - I'd ask that you try my recommendations for future games, then you will see what I mean. Keeping an open mind is more important than saying convince me.

 

Of course 4 mortal wounds are better. You are just feeding my argument that Tide of Escalation is our most efficient damage output.

 

I've also never had a problem against daemons or chaos for that matter. You can efficiently delete nasty units with focused smites. The daemons are also getting said FNP against your tide of convergence shooting? On top of any armor or invul save they have.

 

Please Skywrath, before you tell me try your recommendations, how about you share your actual experiences. And against what armies and players and meta. For all the tournaments you go to. You must have an infinite amount of wealth and knowledge to share with us humble "neophytes". I'd love to learn from one of the greats.

 

As for my opinions and preferences. They come from a place of experience in my current meta. From many many losses over several editions. They are what work for me. And that's proven.

 

 

 

Hi skywrath my 1st paragraph was a quote from reskin but I failed to use the quote function correctly on my phone.

 

My full thought on GK as a whole not just terminators is that if you focus on a single aspect then I believe grey knights are being played wrong. I feel there strength is they are good nearly every phase and that you need to maximise your strengths per opponent. Further to this feel more than other armies GK benefit from thinking ahead eg. Tide of escalation for most of psychic phase then go convergence to psybolt twice in a turn is insane.

 

As for your comment on melee yes terminators are great in melee but you lose the shooting unless you lose gate. So I feel the best use for melee (opponent dependent) is for extra movement and finishing stuff off.

 

Reskin as for 21 wounds on a knight it is full buff so hitting on 2's with fury of 1st and reroll 1's. Then rerolling wounds with bring down the beast. Yes I appreciate it is 5cp however through in some smites or a charge and it is a dead knight.

The only way that works is if you are already in the Tide of Escalation before you turn starts. Do all your smites, change the Tide. Tide of convergence > Psybolt ammunition > edict imperator > shoot out of phase. Then in the shooting phase apply psybolt ammo to another unit. Because the first unit cant shoot twice.

 

That means you would have to have two units that have the maximum loadout of range weapons to really benefit. That's a load of CP. But definitely cheeky, I'll give ya that. Infact you'd want to be using psychic onslaught as well right?

Edited November 16, 2020 by Reskin

[Weltbild]

No, what I was talking about is the complete lack of logic behind the 2MW smites against things that are NOT demons. There is a place for 2MW smites, but as I pointed out, convergence will probably be our main tide.

I guess your differing opinions are based on different approaches to army building. Convergence certainly has a lot of potential if you build around and try to maximize on psilencers/psycannons. If you decide to go vanilla and stick to storm bolters however, 2MW smites might be more reliable in getting your damage through. I only have the experience of a couple of games so far, but I feel that the moment I leave tide of shadows is when I have to put on massive pressure and kill units or just bid farewell to my terminators. For me, the question is if special weapons are worth their cost (AP-1 or -2 at best after CP investment seems lackluster) and even if not, do they have more impact than straight 2MW smites?

 

Edit: You would also have to include the additional cost of special weapons in the calculation of course. Escalation straight up doubles our damage output with smites and MWs do not result in overkill regarding individual models whereas a lucky psilencer shot with D4 is wasted on any 2W terminator. I know that you can easily give examples where the other is favored. I unfortunately neither have the time nor sufficient knowledge in statistics to calculate all possible scenarios.

Edited November 16, 2020 by Weltbild

[Reskin]

 

No, what I was talking about is the complete lack of logic behind the 2MW smites against things that are NOT demons. There is a place for 2MW smites, but as I pointed out, convergence will probably be our main tide.

I guess your differing opinions are based on different approaches to army building. Convergence certainly has a lot of potential if you build around and try to maximize on psilencers/psycannons. If you decide to go vanilla and stick to storm bolters however, 2MW smites might be more reliable in getting your damage through. I only have the experience of a couple of games so far, but I feel that the moment I leave tide of shadows is when I have to put on massive pressure and kill units or just bid farewell to my terminators. For me, the question is if special weapons are worth their cost (AP-1 or -2 at best after CP investment seems lackluster) and even if not, do they have more impact than straight 2MW smites?

 

Finally. I thought I was alone in the world.

[Weltbild]

Finally. I thought I was alone in the world.

I don‘t think that either of you is wrong, just that ‚it depends‘.

 

Perhaps Skywrath is having good results with massed psyweapons and the future (?) D2 on psycannons (D3 with convergence) may further support his approach. I am currently running vanilla terminators too and wonder if that wouldn‘t require a bro-cpt. for psychic locus, as I often can‘t get into range with my 12“ smite pistols.

 

It would be best if GW pulls out their finger and gives us the new codex.

 

Edit: Grammar.

Edited November 16, 2020 by Weltbild

[Skywrath]

 

For starters, 4 mortal wounds to demons is better than 3 mortal wounds, I don't think I have to explain the maths behind that logic. If you are fighting death guard for instance, every mortal wound you can throw their way counts, regardless of their 5++ FNP. No, what I was talking about is the complete lack of logic behind the 2MW smites against things that are NOT demons. There is a place for 2MW smites, but as I pointed out, convergence will probably be our main tide. 

 

Like you said, I have to disagree with your logic there - I'd ask that you try my recommendations for future games, then you will see what I mean. Keeping an open mind is more important than saying convince me.

 

Of course 4 mortal wounds are better. You are just feeding my argument that Tide of Escalation is our most efficient damage output.

 

I've also never had a problem against daemons or chaos for that matter. You can efficiently delete nasty units with focused smites. The daemons are also getting said FNP against your tide of convergence shooting? On top of any armor or invul save they have.

 

Please Skywrath, before you tell me try your recommendations, how about you share your actual experiences. And against what armies and players and meta. For all the tournaments you go to. You must have an infinite amount of wealth and knowledge to share with us humble "neophytes". I'd love to learn from one of the greats.

 

As for my opinions and preferences. They come from a place of experience in my current meta. From many many losses over several editions. They are what work for me. And that's proven.

 

 

Alright, if we are going to go anywhere, can the sarcasm. Secondly, how about you look at what I actually wrote before you write something like that? Here is some wisdom from me playing in tournaments, so listen closely - I'm not in the habit of repeating myself.

 

I said 4 mortal wounds against DEMONS. Do we see Demons in the current meta? No. Do we see demons being the top-dog in any of the tournaments? No. So your argument is completely irrelevant from the perspective that no-one plays them, because as they currently stand the demons are weak. They are a T4 army, which no-one in their right mind would run in any respectable tournament if they want to win. So why would you build a smite-spam list against something that barely exists in the first place? With deference though, smite spam lists are viable, but the new top-dogs (at least in tournaments that I played in), are lists that focus on convergence. Oh, and do you know why no-one bothers with smites? Because every other melee weapon in our game is DD3! Psycannons are 2 damage (with the tide), and Psilencers are a potential 4 damage! Do the maths, raw damage output is better than measly D2 smites. Oh yeah, we also have another nice ability called Vortex of Doom - perhaps you should look that up and see what it does with many ways to get that off/in range?

 

Let's address the other half-baked idea - so let me just refresh you with the perspective that most units can only cast 1 ability. Smite being one, the psychic power being the other. So your brilliant idea is to cast smite at everything that's in range of you, without casting the necessary powers such as Astral Aim, Sanctuary, etc etc? Oh look, we have D2 smites heading our way! Not like our stormbolters in tide of convergence can do the same thing for 2CP which you can EASILY generate with the Librarian with Sanctic Shard, and the command phase. So yes, take it from a <insert rank here> that smite spam lists while viable, pale in comparison to the EFFICIENCY to convergence. Now try that idea out, before you post another half-baked idea.

 

@Westbild, I never said smite spamming lists, were bad, I just said that convergence lists are better. I'm more than happy to revise my point if you provide bat-reps? Secondly, the other "problem" I have with smite spamming lists, in order to maximise the efficiency of said smite lists, you would want more units. Most of our units are 1W each, that when they pop out in the open, they die to ranged weaponry. Not to mention, the other argument (as I pointed out to Reskin), is that you can only cast one power for the most part, and you would be forfeiting the other abilities cast. Then there is another argument that when the other factions get their W increases (and I'm sure they will), D2 smites out of a squad of 5 (let's assume) intercessors, will only kill one, not forcing a morale check, or anything like that. We need our codex before we can look into this further.

Edited November 16, 2020 by Skywrath

[Reskin]

You sure you ain’t half baked? You obviously don’t read anything I post about. For those of you who bother to pay attention... I am THE advocate of vortex of doom.

 

You other points just provide help to my argument that convergence is very niche. If your meta is T5 then until you invest cp into psychic onslaught you are wounds on 4’s with NO Negatives to AP.

 

The the point you made about power armoured troops also applies to your purgation squads and any units also using the psilencers.

 

And I can’t wait till your 1W models start falling over.

 

I’m not even going to address your issues here as it’s just going to derail a perfectly good thread.

 

You’re argument about 2 wound marines and what not is a mute point. At some point in the future our damage output will increase respective of enemy wound counts. It’s a sliding scale power creep.

 

Also you originally brought up the daemons point. Or did you forget already?

Edited November 16, 2020 by Reskin

[Weltbild]

Alright, if we are going to go anywhere, can the sarcasm. Secondly, how about you look at what I actually wrote before you write something like that? Here is some wisdom from me playing in tournaments, so listen closely - I'm not in the habit of repeating myself.

 

I said 4 mortal wounds against DEMONS. Do we see Demons in the current meta? No. Do we see demons being the top-dog in any of the tournaments? No. So your argument is completely irrelevant from the perspective that no-one plays them, because as they currently stand the demons are weak. They are a T4 army, which no-one in their right mind would run in any respectable tournament if they want to win. So why would you build a smite-spam list against something that barely exists in the first place? With deference though, smite spam lists are viable, but the new top-dogs (at least in tournaments that I played in), are lists that focus on convergence. Oh, and do you know why no-one bothers with smites? Because every other melee weapon in our game is DD3! Psycannons are 2 damage (with the tide), and Psilencers are a potential 4 damage! Do the maths, raw damage output is better than measly D2 smites. Oh yeah, we also have another nice ability called Vortex of Doom - perhaps you should look that up and see what it does with many ways to get that off/in range?

 

Let's address the other half-baked idea - so let me just refresh you with the perspective that most units can only cast 1 ability. Smite being one, the psychic power being the other. So your brilliant idea is to cast smite at everything that's in range of you, without casting the necessary powers such as Astral Aim, Sanctuary, etc etc? Oh look, we have D2 smites heading our way! Not like our stormbolters in tide of convergence can do the same thing for 2CP which you can EASILY generate with the Librarian with Sanctic Shard, and the command phase. So yes, take it from a <insert rank here> that smite spam lists while viable, pale in comparison to the EFFICIENCY to convergence. Now try that idea out, before you post another half-baked idea.

 

@Westbild, I never said smite spamming lists, were bad, I just said that convergence lists are better. I'm more than happy to revise my point if you provide bat-reps? Secondly, the other "problem" I have with smite spamming lists, in order to maximise the efficiency of said smite lists, you would want more units. Most of our units are 1W each, that when they pop out in the open, they die to ranged weaponry. Not to mention, the other argument (as I pointed out to Reskin), is that you can only cast one power for the most part, and you would be forfeiting the other abilities cast. Then there is another argument that when the other factions get their W increases (and I'm sure they will), D2 smites out of a squad of 5 (let's assume) intercessors, will only kill one, not forcing a morale check, or anything like that. We need our codex before we can look into this further.

All good points and convincing (to me)! So you do get through with enough shots to deem the special weapons worth it despite the low AP and high CP burning rate. I agree that the smites are weak considering cast limitations, W increases and the short range.

 

BTW, the tone has gotten a bit rough in here.

 

Edit: Quotes.

Edited November 16, 2020 by Weltbild

[Gnomeo]

I feel we may have gone a bit off topic. "unit of the week" however what I will say about the intellectual exchange of ideas is that GK have quite a bit of flexibility. You can maximise this per opponent. as I have mentioned above leaning in to this by using the combat squad rule can really help. I find this works better on terminators rather than other units is a 5man unit has some survivability as apposed to a 5man strike team.