Unit of the Week: Terminator Squad

[Skywrath]

 

Alright, if we are going to go anywhere, can the sarcasm. Secondly, how about you look at what I actually wrote before you write something like that? Here is some wisdom from me playing in tournaments, so listen closely - I'm not in the habit of repeating myself.

 

I said 4 mortal wounds against DEMONS. Do we see Demons in the current meta? No. Do we see demons being the top-dog in any of the tournaments? No. So your argument is completely irrelevant from the perspective that no-one plays them, because as they currently stand the demons are weak. They are a T4 army, which no-one in their right mind would run in any respectable tournament if they want to win. So why would you build a smite-spam list against something that barely exists in the first place? With deference though, smite spam lists are viable, but the new top-dogs (at least in tournaments that I played in), are lists that focus on convergence. Oh, and do you know why no-one bothers with smites? Because every other melee weapon in our game is DD3! Psycannons are 2 damage (with the tide), and Psilencers are a potential 4 damage! Do the maths, raw damage output is better than measly D2 smites. Oh yeah, we also have another nice ability called Vortex of Doom - perhaps you should look that up and see what it does with many ways to get that off/in range?

 

Let's address the other half-baked idea - so let me just refresh you with the perspective that most units can only cast 1 ability. Smite being one, the psychic power being the other. So your brilliant idea is to cast smite at everything that's in range of you, without casting the necessary powers such as Astral Aim, Sanctuary, etc etc? Oh look, we have D2 smites heading our way! Not like our stormbolters in tide of convergence can do the same thing for 2CP which you can EASILY generate with the Librarian with Sanctic Shard, and the command phase. So yes, take it from a <insert rank here> that smite spam lists while viable, pale in comparison to the EFFICIENCY to convergence. Now try that idea out, before you post another half-baked idea.

 

@Westbild, I never said smite spamming lists, were bad, I just said that convergence lists are better. I'm more than happy to revise my point if you provide bat-reps? Secondly, the other "problem" I have with smite spamming lists, in order to maximise the efficiency of said smite lists, you would want more units. Most of our units are 1W each, that when they pop out in the open, they die to ranged weaponry. Not to mention, the other argument (as I pointed out to Reskin), is that you can only cast one power for the most part, and you would be forfeiting the other abilities cast. Then there is another argument that when the other factions get their W increases (and I'm sure they will), D2 smites out of a squad of 5 (let's assume) intercessors, will only kill one, not forcing a morale check, or anything like that. We need our codex before we can look into this further.

All good points and convincing (to me)! So you do get through with enough shots to deem the special weapons worth it despite the low AP and high CP burning rate. I agree that the smites are weak considering cast limitations, W increases and the short range.

 

BTW, the tone has gotten a bit rough in here.

 

Edit: Quotes.

 

 

Happy to talk further in a more chill environment

 

I feel we may have gone a bit off topic. "unit of the week" however what I will say about the intellectual exchange of ideas is that GK have quite a bit of flexibility. You can maximise this per opponent. as I have mentioned above leaning in to this by using the combat squad rule can really help. I find this works better on terminators rather than other units is a 5man unit has some survivability as apposed to a 5man strike team.

 

You are right, this is becoming too rough.

 

EDIT: Removed the unncessary bit.

Edited November 17, 2020 by Skywrath

[Reskin]

Now that I've had my morning coffee and I've had some to time to "read" the responses clearly. I want to address the issues.

 

Firstly, the title for this topic is Unit of the Week: Terminator Squad.

 

That means a unit of 5 or more up to a unit of 10. This also means for every 5 models they can take 1 special weapon from the ranged weapon list.

If I can only afford 9 terminators that's still only 1 special weapon.

 

 

Unless you are against t-shirt hordes any wounds with the stormbolters are a bonus to the real threat. 2 Wound smites are much more reliable. They essentially can't be stopped 99% of the time. Melee is where its at for termies. No expensive unit likes to sit there and take a barrage of firepower.

I agree mortal wounds are great for us however I dont think they are our win condition. Though this further reinforces my mention of the combat squad rule and taking a unit of 10 terminators so you can adjust on the fly. If you fully buff a unit with all strats its an average of 21 wounds against a knight. This means you can gate psybolt eliminate threat then combat squad.

 

Outline in blue/bold. With regards to the blue text, sorry, I can't see myself agreeing with that statement for two reasons. First one is that in order to get 2W smites we will have to switch the tide over (which isn't a problem), and when we could do so much more damage in convergence. I see the smite tide useful for two things - to kill demons, or (using my favourite example) to kill off pesky Bladeguard. I see it as an "execute" button of sorts. Even then, aside from those two very specific conditions, you would be better off either in convergence for shooting, or fury for melee, especially with your quote of: Melee it's where it's at for terminators. Now to build a list that makes us have full use of the melee tide, yay!

 

So with the above logic in question, why would you write the second bolded bit, which contradicts the blue text? I'm actually genuinely confused.

 

 

If we are talking about a unit of terminators. Whether or not the unit is 5 or 10 man. Lets say they get to psychic, shoot and charge. I only have 2 CP left. You are telling me its more reliable to use 2CP on psychic onslaught for my 1 gun (in a unit of 5) and obviously you want to be in tide of convergence here. Then to be in tide of fury and use 1CP for Fury of the Proven to hit on 2's in melee. Even if I used no stratagems and was in tide of shadows. The most efficient phase for the terminators to do damage is the melee phase. Without any tides, stratagems or psychic buffs. Terminator armour isn't what it used to be. You are still -1 to hit with heavy weapons when they move. So hitting on 4's with 4 shots from a psycannon.

2 shots on average will go through. And after wound rolls, save rolls and any FNP. You are lucky to have done 1 wound. The psilencer is 3 hits on average. With no negatives to armour.

And if the meta is T5... well I don't know what the average is there. I'm not smart enough to figure that out.

 

So I'll do my 2mortal wounds, and hopefully charge the enemy. I like to hit stuff with my shiny nemesis weapons  Because unlike shooting. The potential output with halberds that I don't have to pay for is way more then spending 2CP and paying for ranged weapons. That's without any help.

 

 

So with the above logic in question, why would you write the second bolded bit, which contradicts the blue text? I'm actually genuinely confused.

 That tone and sarcasm is what started this whole debate. The bold text you highlighted from Gnomeo never contradicted my statement about the reliability of 2 mortal wounds. Nor did I myself or Gnomeo say that 2 wound smites were our win condition.

This is just one example of many with you putting words into our mouths and quoting us as if we originally said the idea. I think you owe Gnomeo an apology.

 

Also, please note to court, The first time Daemons are mentioned in this topic is from you Skywrath. Where in the above posts did I myself or anyone else mention Daemons. The current Meta. Daemons in tournaments. Or Daemons being Top tier? So far, all any of us has talked about is terminators and how to load them out.

 

 

For starters, 4 mortal wounds to demons is better than 3 mortal wounds, I don't think I have to explain the maths behind that logic. If you are fighting death guard for instance, every mortal wound you can throw their way counts, regardless of their 5++ FNP. No, what I was talking about is the complete lack of logic behind the 2MW smites against things that are NOT demons. There is a place for 2MW smites, but as I pointed out, convergence will probably be our main tide. 

 

Like you said, I have to disagree with your logic there - I'd ask that you try my recommendations for future games, then you will see what I mean. Keeping an open mind is more important than saying convince me.

 

 

Your arrogance and sarcasm in the opening sentence of this statement screams at me. Again I nor anyone else brought up the idea that 3 mortal wound as opposed to 4 mortal wounds against Daemons was somehow better. Thankyou though for clarifying that 4 is better than 3. I totally agree.

Again you seem to be setting up these parameters of how the unit of terminators is interacting with other units. Your own statement that convergence is better then 2 mortal wounds is a completely acceptable argument. However you fail to apply the same parameters to your arguments. Your shooting has to hit > wound > penetrate the armour save > then penetrate the FNP save. That's a lot of variable's for a unit with only 1 or 2 special guns. Your whole premise for your argument seems to be spending 2CP and being tide of convergence. That's a lot of resources invested.

 

I myself would rather no buffs, and I'll be in the tide of shadows for all I care. I'll take my 20 stormbolter shots, my 1 mortal wound. and charge the enemy with my 16 str5 halberds that are already -2AP D3 wounds. All this for 190pts bare bones without any other investment.

 

Also above is the first time I mentioned vortext of doom. Here's the quote.

 

Throw in a vortex of doom, and its only 1CP to 3 dice it, use a librarian with sanctic shard for an effect +2 to the cast with a free re roll to ensure it gets to 12. Or use 1 extra CP empyrean surge for +1 to cast. 6 MORTAL wounds from vortex, average of 3+2 for that characters other cast of smite.

I will admit now I'm talking to about a completely different unit. And I'll happily amend my statement. You can put vortex of doom to a unit of terminators. For the sake of this example.

1CP to 3 dice the cast. 1CP previously from a librarian unit casting with Empyric Surge. In total that's 2CP for a potential 6 mortal wounds, on multiple units mind you. Who knows what the maximum could be. Regardless, that's the same amount of CP you invested into psychic onslaught to buff your 2 guns (in a unit of 10 termies). Or you could do this. For the same amount of CP, instead of using empyric surge. You can use 1 CP for mental focus and allow the unit of terminators to cast 2 spells. A vortex and a smite. Oh the potential!

 

My following quote.

 

Please Skywrath, before you tell me try your recommendations, how about you share your actual experiences. And against what armies and players and meta. For all the tournaments you go to. You must have an infinite amount of wealth and knowledge to share with us humble "neophytes". I'd love to learn from one of the greats.

You seem to be top dog around these parts so I was deferring to your wisdom. I genuinely want to hear your experiences and thoughts. Not some repeated regurgitated quote from Goonhammer. I already read that. You did call me a neophyte when I first arrived, along with others I've seen you do. Already trying to establish your alpha status among the pack.

So with this next quote keep that in mind.

 

 

 

Alright, if we are going to go anywhere, can the sarcasm. Secondly, how about you look at what I actually wrote before you write something like that? Here is some wisdom from me playing in tournaments, so listen closely - I'm not in the habit of repeating myself.

 

I said 4 mortal wounds against DEMONS. Do we see Demons in the current meta? No. Do we see demons being the top-dog in any of the tournaments? No. So your argument is completely irrelevant from the perspective that no-one plays them, because as they currently stand the demons are weak. They are a T4 army, which no-one in their right mind would run in any respectable tournament if they want to win. So why would you build a smite-spam list against something that barely exists in the first place? With deference though, smite spam lists are viable, but the new top-dogs (at least in tournaments that I played in), are lists that focus on convergence. Oh, and do you know why no-one bothers with smites? Because every other melee weapon in our game is DD3! Psycannons are 2 damage (with the tide), and Psilencers are a potential 4 damage! Do the maths, raw damage output is better than measly D2 smites. Oh yeah, we also have another nice ability called Vortex of Doom - perhaps you should look that up and see what it does with many ways to get that off/in range?

 

Let's address the other half-baked idea - so let me just refresh you with the perspective that most units can only cast 1 ability. Smite being one, the psychic power being the other. So your brilliant idea is to cast smite at everything that's in range of you, without casting the necessary powers such as Astral Aim, Sanctuary, etc etc? Oh look, we have D2 smites heading our way! Not like our stormbolters in tide of convergence can do the same thing for 2CP which you can EASILY generate with the Librarian with Sanctic Shard, and the command phase. So yes, take it from a <insert rank here> that smite spam lists while viable, pale in comparison to the EFFICIENCY to convergence. Now try that idea out, before you post another half-baked idea.

 

@Westbild, I never said smite spamming lists, were bad, I just said that convergence lists are better. I'm more than happy to revise my point if you provide bat-reps? Secondly, the other "problem" I have with smite spamming lists, in order to maximise the efficiency of said smite lists, you would want more units. Most of our units are 1W each, that when they pop out in the open, they die to ranged weaponry. Not to mention, the other argument (as I pointed out to Reskin), is that you can only cast one power for the most part, and you would be forfeiting the other abilities cast. Then there is another argument that when the other factions get their W increases (and I'm sure they will), D2 smites out of a squad of 5 (let's assume) intercessors, will only kill one, not forcing a morale check, or anything like that. We need our codex before we can look into this further.

 

 

Someone disagrees with your view and you start to assume all manner of things. So far, in all you examples you've added these parameters that you assume we are applying to the same unit in the same context. So far, I'll repeat that none of us have brought up anything else other then the termintors and their usages.

 

Then you gone on about daemons and the current meta and pro tournament players, assuming myself or anyone else even mentioned the notion of these topics? Also in your second paragraph you sarcastically mention something about vortex of doom? And like I previously stated. I was the original person who introduced that idea in this particular thread. But you didn't read what I wrote

 

The third paragraph you start to insult my ideas by calling them half baked. No wonder I don't agree with your comments. Thankyou for clarifying that most units can only cast 1 ability. It's not like I've ONLY been playing Grey Knights for my entire 40k adventure. I interpreted this comment as if you were calling me an idiot? That's respectful of you. Again your argument in this paragraph revolves around the assumed presumption that I'm spamming smite with my entire army now? And somehow not casting any buffs with anyone else? How did we go from talking about the unit of a terminator unit to the whole army? Never once did I mention anything about how to use my entire army, what abilities to cast with what units or anything such.

You make a lot of assumptions about librarians and sanctic shards and generating CP. Providing someone actually took those things. 

 

Then you go on to say that most of our units are 1W each. That's not true. The topic and unit in question is Terminators, they are 2W. With a 2+ 5++ save. Keeping in mind they can only take 1-2 of these special weapons you are raving on about. And at a cost of 190% compared to the 1W strike marines OR assuming for your plan to work you have taking purgation squads, also note, 1W 3+ save and are 100pts + weapons which they can take 4 of in a unit of 5. So what's that? 120pts I'm guessing. (Someone correct me). We are talking about terminators. Who cost way more then 100pts and can only take 2 weapons. Then you're saying we need to spam them to be effective. Show me how you are spamming terminators over your units that cost 100pts?

 

The arguement you pointed out to me is actually in favour of me. You explicitly said 1W models step out of cover and they die. You, Skywrath were the one that introduced 1W models to this conversation. Then you're telling us that they die easily. Wouldn't that be detrimental to your plan at the start? We're talking about terminators, and again you've brought up 1W models, regardless of strikes, purifiers or purgators. The other arguement that you apparently pointed out to me about casting one psychic power? How is that relevant? Never did I say smite is what you MUST cast with terminators all day every day. This statement only adds fuel to the fire with how your strategy works.

 

 

I feel we may have gone a bit off topic. "unit of the week" however what I will say about the intellectual exchange of ideas is that GK have quite a bit of flexibility. You can maximise this per opponent. as I have mentioned above leaning in to this by using the combat squad rule can really help. I find this works better on terminators rather than other units is a 5man unit has some survivability as apposed to a 5man strike team.

Gnomeo is right, you're the one who has dragged this thread off topic. I like having conversations about list building and specific overall army tactics but this isn't the place.

 

Lord knows that I've tried just about everything I can to win my games. Maybe I will try out the special weapons spam with tide of convergence. But that's food for another topic.

This is about terminators.

 

But I wanted to address the issues here. As I'm not one to shy from confrontation as others might be. Nor am I afraid to call out intellectual bullies. Who do it from the safety of their computer chair. 

Edited November 17, 2020 by Reskin

[Brother Lunkhead]

=][=

 

BROTHEEERRRRS........HOLD YOUR BREATH AND COUNT TO TEN......

 

Now..... let it out slooowly.  There.... feel better?..... of course you do. 

 

This is a discussion about Terminators and not an argument about who's right and who's wrong. Everyone has their own way of doing things, whether it's how you put your socks on or how we approach the use of our Grey Knight Terminators.

 

I don't care who's right and who's wrong, and neither do you.......CAPISCE? 

 

NOW PLAY BALL AND PLAY COOL

 

=][=

[Skywrath]

First of all, apologies for "shutting the thread" and apologies for my conduct. Disregard what I wrote, my head wasn't on straight. Secondly, I acknowledge that people have a right to play the game how they want to, whether through smites/convergence/melee tides, as they see fit. 

Edited November 17, 2020 by Skywrath