Thoughts on the FW changes?

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Beyond Martial legacy has to be one of the laziest and worst rules ever done?

I quite like that sicarans and their varients get a 2+ save now, and am thinking of adding a venator to my EC as I have always loved the model and the new description of it certainly has a Slaanesh vibe, and the main gun seems quite good now.

I'm still going to use my contemptors, but sad duel fists is no longer a thing so likely going to switch to using fist and multimelta.

Deredeo's also seem good, as a reliable source of damage 2 and 3 shooting for dealing with loyalists.
 

[BrainFireBob]

Terrax and/or Anvillus. Reasonable cost, and a real drop pod rule.

 

Looking to try both.

 

Else.. the lack of helbrute keyword.

[MegaVolt87]

How did the typhon make out rules wise and points wise compared to its 9th ed CA points + old 8th ed index rules? 

Edited November 8, 2020 by MegaVolt87

[jgascoine011]

Did the terrax also get the drop pod rule?

[Cheex]

Played a game on the weekend using two Dreadclaws. 50PL Crusade vs Raven Guard successors, so not the most balanced of games to measure against, but still useful to see what they were capable of.

 

My takeaways from the game:

• They're very fragile. 9W is fine (especially since it means they don't have a damage table) but T6 is very squishy for a transport. Make use of ruins as much as you can.
• You can't disembark on the turn it arrives, which is a nasty mark against it compared to the Termite. That said, I actually liked the ability to stay inside since it meant my Berzerkers were safe from small arms fire for a bit.
• They hit hard. You'll probably only get a couple of hits in, but S12 AP-4 D3 is no joke. I had one cause 12 wounds against an Invictor over the course of two combat phases before it got punched out of the air; the other burninated and then squashed a Phobos Librarian. Not bad for a transport.
• Thermal jets trigger whenever the Claw moves, without being limited to a specific phase. Make sure you leapfrog your intended charge target if you can so you can get a few more mortal wounds in.
• It's a transport that can FLY, which is very useful in 9E since our group has been playing with tons of terrain.

Overall, I was impressed but very conscious that I was rolling hot all game...and my opponent had no Eradicators. I'll keep using them and see how they go.

[Kain Mor]

The lack of legion traits because of lazy rules writing and the removal of unique and flavorful weapons leaves me severely displeased with the new book.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

How did the typhon make out rules wise and points wise compared to its 9th ed CA points + old 8th ed index rules? 

Typhon is 415 points in my preferred build with 2 Lascannons and a Multi-Melta. Dropped to T8 and BS3+, but still has a ton of wounds. Dreadhammer is down to 24 inches all the time, but is now 2d6 shots, Str 10, AP-4, and flat 3 damage. Unlike many other former Hellforged vehicles, it still has AP and multi-damage on its tracks and I believe it retains a WS of 5+ instead of dropping all the way to 6+. Out of turn smoke helps, too.

 

As an Iron Warriors player, I'm happy to be able to heal it with Unholy Vigor, Warpsmiths, etc. It will also benefit from things like Methodical Annihilation, Dour Duty, etc because it may not get the Legion Trait, but it does still have the <LEGION> keyword. 

 

I personally won't mind paying 4CP for the privelege of fielding it (Superheavy Aux Detachment plus Martial Legacy), but that's because IW synergies with it are very strong and I intend to build a list around it. I'm not so sure about other Legions. Maybe if TSons ever get access to it via FAQ, their synergies might be interesting (yeeting it around with Cult of Duplicity or repairing wounds with Temporal Manipulation, for example).

Edited November 9, 2020 by GreaterChickenofTzeentch

[MegaVolt87]

 

How did the typhon make out rules wise and points wise compared to its 9th ed CA points + old 8th ed index rules? 

Typhon is 415 points in my preferred build with 2 Lascannons and a Multi-Melta. Dropped to T8 and BS3+, but still has a ton of wounds. Dreadhammer is down to 24 inches all the time, but is now 2d6 shots, Str 10, AP-4, and flat 3 damage. Unlike many other former Hellforged vehicles, it still has AP and multi-damage on its tracks and I believe it retains a WS of 5+ instead of dropping all the way to 6+. Out of turn smoke helps, too.

 

As an Iron Warriors player, I'm happy to be able to heal it with Unholy Vigor, Warpsmiths, etc. It will also benefit from things like Methodical Annihilation, Dour Duty, etc because it may not get the Legion Trait, but it does still have the <LEGION> keyword. 

 

I personally won't mind paying 4CP for the privelege of fielding it (Superheavy Aux Detachment plus Martial Legacy), but that's because IW synergies with it are very strong and I intend to build a list around it. I'm not so sure about other Legions. Maybe if TSons ever get access to it via FAQ, their synergies might be interesting (yeeting it around with Cult of Duplicity or repairing wounds with Temporal Manipulation, for example).

 

 

Hm, kinda mixed feeling on the changes there. I think if we work in some 5++ bubble(s) should be good. Methodical annihilation is one of the best strats in the game IMO. Still, very much still wait and see, as even SM didn't get 1:1 carry over of their PA content.  

[Kythnos]

Well, I started my campaign roster for our local crusade campaign without any FW units in it, as I wanted to wait for the new rules. I have a Dreadclaw, one Contemptor, one Leviathan, one Sicaran Venator and one Decimator.

 

Despite some horrid rules writing in the book, I feel that all of these units can work reasonably well in my crusade force. The Dreadclaw and Venator definitely improved, the Decimator changed quite a bit but is about same-ish in potency, and the Contemptor and Leviathan were certainly downgraded. But even in the case of the latter two, they will still do some work in our casual gaming group. For everything nearing competitive gaming we will have to skip them from now on.

 

And I still hope that the lack of the Helbrute keyword was an oversight that will be amended via an FAQ.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

 

How did the typhon make out rules wise and points wise compared to its 9th ed CA points + old 8th ed index rules? 

Typhon is 415 points in my preferred build with 2 Lascannons and a Multi-Melta. Dropped to T8 and BS3+, but still has a ton of wounds. Dreadhammer is down to 24 inches all the time, but is now 2d6 shots, Str 10, AP-4, and flat 3 damage. Unlike many other former Hellforged vehicles, it still has AP and multi-damage on its tracks and I believe it retains a WS of 5+ instead of dropping all the way to 6+. Out of turn smoke helps, too.

 

As an Iron Warriors player, I'm happy to be able to heal it with Unholy Vigor, Warpsmiths, etc. It will also benefit from things like Methodical Annihilation, Dour Duty, etc because it may not get the Legion Trait, but it does still have the <LEGION> keyword. 

 

I personally won't mind paying 4CP for the privelege of fielding it (Superheavy Aux Detachment plus Martial Legacy), but that's because IW synergies with it are very strong and I intend to build a list around it. I'm not so sure about other Legions. Maybe if TSons ever get access to it via FAQ, their synergies might be interesting (yeeting it around with Cult of Duplicity or repairing wounds with Temporal Manipulation, for example).

 

 

Hm, kinda mixed feeling on the changes there. I think if we work in some 5++ bubble(s) should be good. Methodical annihilation is one of the best strats in the game IMO. Still, very much still wait and see, as even SM didn't get 1:1 carry over of their PA content.  

 

Building a list myself with the Typhon, 3 Vindicators, and a Land Raider, plus 3 Helbrutes, a Daemon Prince, a Warpsmith, and a scattering of infantry. DP is going to be Slaanesh and the Typhon will be marked the same for 5+ FNP casting. That, plus the presence of 4 other T8 hulls to spread threat around should be interesting, with the Helbrutes there for countercharge and other CC duties. We'll see how it works.

[MegaVolt87]

If CSM get the new vindi siege shield rule on ours like SM have, I will be very happy with that, only 140 pts too I think. LR's are too many points, heck even in prior editions when they were 250 points, that still was too many points IMO. 

[Squike]

Disappointed that we lost butcher cannons on the contemptor, made it something different to the loyalist version, also no hellbrute keyword sucks, but I hope that’s a copy paste error from writing the loyalist sheet. Martial legacy is as said a crap rule that is a pointless tax now that the unit rules are written by the GW rules team. Also disappointed that the Scorpius didn’t get an interesting rule to replace the shoot twice, and also disappointed that the hellforged bit was dropped, I wouldn’t say it was a great rule before but at least it was something different and interesting.

[Brom MKIV]

It's a mixed bag. I hate the cp tax on contemptors. Loyalists have analogues so they don't care but CSM don't so that's a huge disparity.

 

On the bright side deredeos are better than ever and my sicaran will actually see play again in my next game. I think it's slightly less damage output but often more durable and longer range which matters for my purposes.

 

The dreadclaw is a stand out that immediately made my lists. With the option for 2x5 chosen, 2x5 berzerks, or 9 csm it becomes a very flexible unpredictable delivery. Also combines nicely with my helldrake to enable linebreaker.

 

Last but not least lord arkos is everything I had anticipated. He will be replacing my chaos lord equivalent and gains me 2 cp while doing it not to mention enabling assaults from DS.

Edited November 11, 2020 by Brom MKIV

[Squike]

So with the changes out, do people think the contemptor is still a contender?

 

If you ran butcher cannons before what will you run now? Just default to dual double autocannon?

 

With the points drop but loosing fire twice, are Scorpius still worth taking?

And is it more important to take 2 now that fire twice is lost?

Edited November 13, 2020 by Squike

[Kain Mor]

I may still run my contemptors with either dual autocannons or assault cannons because the drop to 9 wounds to no longer degrade (even tho bs 3 essentially makes it feel like the old middle bracket) and the gaining of duty eternal help keep it slightly viable to me but only after they faq the helbrute keyword on and only because the main book is so crap for those of us that don’t like daemon engines. Though I may just have to use the models as helbrutes, we’ll see.

[Squike]

I’m wondering if the conversion beam cannon or the hellforged heavy plasma cannon might be worth taking now.

Also now we have access to the cyclone missile launcher is that worth the points cost?

Edited November 13, 2020 by Squike

[Prot]

I really wrestled with the debate of Contemptors or not. 

 

My Black Legion usually featured Decimators (butchers) and/or Contemptor w/4 lascannons. Great unit... or was. 

 

I hate using CP just to use what I consider a pedestrian unit. The rule itself seems like a nonsensical penalty for using Forgeworld. This isn't a complaint, as much as a reason that I put a massive strike against using the Forgeworld penalty units.

 

The second reason is Helbrutes. My vanilla Helbrute with Multi Melta fist has become one of my favourite units. To quote Draigo, "if he dies, he dies..." Otherwise he's usually causing quite a mess.

 

I still don't own the Forgeworld book and I only own a few (non-Custodes) FW units so I'm not even sure if it's worth my investment to pay what would be about 100 CAD just to investigate further. Though I do own (unpainted): Sicarian tank (The old one with the Accelerator Cannons) and a Fire Raptor.

 

I have no idea if they have become usable again though. 

[Squike]

Yeah I don’t think the book is worth it at all, I will just stick to BattleScribe/games-workshop. It might have been different if it had some fluff and other content in it, but just DataSheets of which I currently only need 2..... yeah I’m not spending £40 or whatever it is on that. Edited November 14, 2020 by Squike

[Doom Herald]

I'm slightly optimistic that the lack of HELLBRUTE keyword is an indicator that CSM Legion Traits will be applied to vehicles in the manner everyone's else is. Of course, GW being GW, I found it just as likely that they will just make our traits apply to DREADNAUGHTs (as a keyword). Edited November 13, 2020 by Doom Herald

[Irate Khornate]

For what I save in points and cp, Im better off running non Forgeworld units. Except maybe the Demios Vindicator if it gets a chaos version through FAQ.

[Squike]

I'm slightly optimistic that the lack of HELLBRUTE keyword is an indicator that CSM Legion Traits will be applied to vehicles in the manner everyone's else is. Of course, GW being GW, I found it just as likely that they will just make our traits apply to DREADNAUGHTs (as a keyword).

We can only hope!!! Although if they don’t I think there would be uproar because there is no denying that amount of bias...

[Galron]

Finally got the book so I can comment.

The Good: I actually like a lot of the new changes for chaos.

-The changes to the Sicaran Venator means it actually has a use and isnt too expensive. The regular one isnt bad either with its 3 Damage weapon. I might have to field both in my Night Lords.

 

-Superheavy changes are great. Yeah we have to pay a ton of CP but at least the points have dropped drastically. I might actually use my Typhon now that I am not paying 700+ points for it. Sucks we lost the sit still bonus but smaller board makes it far more useful. Go Iron Warriors

 

-Leviathan nerf isnt so bad. It is roughly a hundred points less. The nerfs simply make it not an auto-include which works well for me swapping in and out with the Sicarans.

 

-My IW appreciate the Dorito changes. Really like the Volkite falconets for such minor points cost.

 

-Hell Blades with Twin lascannon are cheap. Might be worth bringing one or two for hard to hit anti-tank with a 5++

 

Negatives

Im sure there are typos I havent seen, it is games workshop after all, we dont expect them to pay for editors.

 

- Theres a change from the previous edition where it isnt clear whether you have to pay for the base unit or the listed cost is the base chassis + base weapons. Only noted because they dont include points for standard weapons in the points cost section.

[Kain Mor]

The points thing is just the way it’s done now since the marine and necron book. If a weapon option isn’t in the points it’s free and you just pay the base cost if you aren’t taking any upgrades.

[Brom MKIV]

The new method of base cost is better I feel but annoying on the Sicaran. I believe it's the only unit to have a stock wewpon and then option to upgrade with more of the same. As it stands it means the Sicaran costs 15 pts more base. Hope this gets clarified.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

So with the changes out, do people think the contemptor is still a contender?

 

If you ran butcher cannons before what will you run now? Just default to dual double autocannon?

 

With the points drop but loosing fire twice, are Scorpius still worth taking?

And is it more important to take 2 now that fire twice is lost?

I'm really not sure, my old duel fists ec one is magnatised and I did get a multimelta with it, but atm loosing legion traits, the worse hit values and cp make it almost feel a tad pointless/not worth it? Which is a shame as it's one of my best painted ec models.

 

My TS I am waiting to see if we can even still take them, my duel butcher cannon I may try as duel autocannons but considering using one of myt ec's fists as their magnets match up,that or maybe duel volkite? it's hard to say really.

I echo the comments on the sicaran venator being much better and hopefully worth it's cost, just wish it hadn't seen my conemptors take such a hit.

 

Unlikely I know, especially as loyalists did not get it, but anyone hoping a future Chaos codex may have a warlord trait which voids/pays for martial legacy?