Index Astartes: Tome Keepers

[Doghouse]

I think these look quite interesting. It seems to be a way of encouraging players to create their own chapters and through WD show how to flesh them out. Giving them an Index Astartes article of their own is a sensible end to the project I think, kind of in the same style that they have with the Silver Templars. I look forward to reading this.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

 

 

GW has been encouraging more customisation for ages, there was a vox cast about it last year. Just point the model appropriately, check with your opponent first and don't expect to use it in matched play.

Play Crusade or Open instead.

One Voxcast that only a small percentage of the playerbase will have even listened to doesn't undo years of GW rules writing which actively restricts customisation outside of the options provided on the model kit, especially not when that extremely limiting rules writing is still going on up to the very latest Codexes.

 

Just look at the Primaris Captain datasheet if you need an example of how overly restrictive GW is prepared to be for no real reason; Power Fists are okay but only if you take it with a Plasma Pistol, unless you're a Dark Angel in which case you could instead match it with a Special Issue Bolt Carbine, but no other chapter can take one of those at all. It's so needlessly convoluted.

 

Anyway, "just play Crusade or Open" is not only a middle finger to the way the majority of people play 40k (which is Matched), it's also the worst of both worlds; overly restrictive in one format and a free-for-all in another. If the position is effectively "you can ignore the normal restrictions in Open", then what's stopping me equipping a Captain with a Twin Lascannon or something equally silly?

An outstanding example there of taking an argument to a point of absurdity, we went from a captain with a power axe and plasma pistol to a twin lascannon, and gained nothing in the debate.

 

If you turned up to a non-competitive matched game against me, with a captain armed in a fluffy way, with appropriately pointed upgrades, that's cool. The game doesn't need to be as played as restrictively as a lot of people play it, and GW have, in numerous places, including this white dwarf series as it happens, encouraged conversion, customisation and narrative.

[Halandaar]

 

 

 

GW has been encouraging more customisation for ages, there was a vox cast about it last year. Just point the model appropriately, check with your opponent first and don't expect to use it in matched play.

Play Crusade or Open instead.

One Voxcast that only a small percentage of the playerbase will have even listened to doesn't undo years of GW rules writing which actively restricts customisation outside of the options provided on the model kit, especially not when that extremely limiting rules writing is still going on up to the very latest Codexes.

 

Just look at the Primaris Captain datasheet if you need an example of how overly restrictive GW is prepared to be for no real reason; Power Fists are okay but only if you take it with a Plasma Pistol, unless you're a Dark Angel in which case you could instead match it with a Special Issue Bolt Carbine, but no other chapter can take one of those at all. It's so needlessly convoluted.

 

Anyway, "just play Crusade or Open" is not only a middle finger to the way the majority of people play 40k (which is Matched), it's also the worst of both worlds; overly restrictive in one format and a free-for-all in another. If the position is effectively "you can ignore the normal restrictions in Open", then what's stopping me equipping a Captain with a Twin Lascannon or something equally silly?

An outstanding example there of taking an argument to a point of absurdity, we went from a captain with a power axe and plasma pistol to a twin lascannon, and gained nothing in the debate.

 

If you turned up to a non-competitive matched game against me, with a captain armed in a fluffy way, with appropriately pointed upgrades, that's cool. The game doesn't need to be as played as restrictively as a lot of people play it, and GW have, in numerous places, including this white dwarf series as it happens, encouraged conversion, customisation and narrative.

I don't disagree that the game doesn't need to be played to the letter, in my own personal gaming circle stuff like this wouldn't matter and people are happy to have slightly off-rule combos as long as they make sense and are reasonable. I myself have a Bolt Carbine/Lightning Claw Primaris Captain because why not? But people like you and I are not the only people playing this game and a great many, maybe even the majority, see the rules as absolute.

 

The problem is that GW have created this weird all or nothing scenario where instead of encouraging customisation by just writing in to the rules that characters can take anything from X list (like the Firstborn characters still can), they tightly restrict it but then separately encourage people to ignore those restrictions completely.

[Xenith]

 

Anyway, "just play Crusade or Open" is not only a middle finger to the way the majority of people play 40k (which is Matched), it's also the worst of both worlds; overly restrictive in one format and a free-for-all in another. If the position is effectively "you can ignore the normal restrictions in Open", then what's stopping me equipping a Captain with a Twin Lascannon or something equally silly? 

 

It's almost like tournaments place restrictions on what can be used, and I forgot what open means. 

 

Yes, if you have a good gaming group who are open minded, it makes sense for a 9th company captain to have an 'ancient/relic' heavy 2 (twin linked) lascannon. Why not master craft it?

 

Even against other players, just say I paid the points and took this loadout. Many people probably wont care, as long as youre realistic and dont arm your TDA captain with like, 6 sets of hurricane bolters. 

 

Agree that it's interesting to see the WD team ignore legal loadouts for captains...but as we know, they're all about the narrative, and rule of cool. Maybe as gamers we need to re-adjust to get less wrked up? I look forward to the article. Curious about their chapter tactics.

Edited November 14, 2020 by Xenith

[WARMASTER_]

Agree that it's interesting to see the WD team ignore legal loadouts for captains...but as we know, they're all about the narrative, and rule of cool. Maybe as gamers we need to re-adjust to get less wrked up? I look forward to the article. Curious about their chapter tactics.

Exactly my feelings, salty people will always find a way to grape though... what can ya do ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I doubt many tournaments or competitive leagues will allow a captain with twin las plus it’s not in any way fluffy.

[psyduck]

I refer you to Cpt. twin las of the 9th Company:

 

 

[chapter master 454]

I will point out that this compounds onto issues of how GW has released HQs for Primaris. Yes, their poses are nice (very nice) but ultimately, it comes round to the old adage we all know from that rather incredible movie, "When everyone is super, no-one is" and that is what is happening here. These poses are unique yes but because that is the de facto pose for that model, there is no customisation. All models look the same, pose the same and lack little flavour or depth. Why are primaris captains whimsically restricted in wargear depending on how they stand?

 

It would be fine if these models were the exception, special models released as a nice extra. "To celebrate X event" or "to go along with this new release" but no, these are the de facto models. The only choice we get is which pre-set to use, and we all know how using pre-sets feel in any game.

 

I would point to Mortal Kombat as of late, with their announcment of kustom variants being allowed over the pre-set variations. People from my circles so take that as you will are singing the praise of this, allowing characters to have competitive variants that work without being hamstrung. In fact, some variations were argued to be improved by removing some options in them. Will this lead to certain load-outs being considered the best? Yes. However it lets characters shine when they couldn't, lets people experiment meaningfully (which can lead to healthier balance) AND to cap it all, it means characters aren't made garbage by poor skill choices on the dev teams side because "it's fluffy".

 

Options do NOT detract from a game, they can only add. They only time options are a problem is when one option is clearly broken and at that point, its the option's problem, not the fact options exist.

 

If there was one thing GW need to stop being salty about, its the Chapter House incident. It would let them improve the game by leaps and bounds.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

You don’t seem to understand the extent of the damage and ruin the Chapterhouse lawsuit almost brought about. All the eggs were on the table for the US market which is one if the not the largest. GeeDub in their wisdom sent Alan Merritt to defend their IP in the land of McDonalds and made a very unconvincing argument. He is no longer with them in any capacity now. Their IP was on the line, it was a really big deal and they almost blew it. There was a metric tonne of fallout... new CEO was hired and on the condition he was a grognard. Tom Kirby prided himself on not once ever having played any of their games which he has been said to despise. Fantasy and 40K both got rebooted from the ground up. Jess Goodwin has stated as well he’s never played in of their games either and that’s not a good thing, not at all.

 

if you love some customization then use firstborn characters. And it is not like Primaris characters can’t pack a power house punch - the Bladeguard Captain with the Burning Blade and Imperium Sword is truly a monster to reckon with on the table. There’s all kinds of third party bits to convert Primaris too. So yeah Chapterhouse was a huge deal that struct the company at its very foundation.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Yeah, because Jes Goodwin's failure to play the games has really held back his ability to design epic miniatures...

[WARMASTER_]

I think @chapter master 454 this comes down to player outlook rather than your argument being the case, because from my view point there's more options than we've ever had! And it's really hard to argue that point, GW has never taken away any of the previous first born options and has added a first born lieutenant option as of 8th as well as introducing an entire primaris line to go alongside not instead of it!

 

As regarding "there's only one model for each so it becomes boring" look back at all of the first born character models released all but one was mono posed and it was an awful Commander kit the rest had set options and you were encouraged to convert as you are now

 

At current count there's 6 loadout options for a basic primaris captain 8 if you're DA, then there's 2 Gravis armour loadouts and 1 Phobos, across 5 unique models, plus 6 lieutenant options 9 if your DA and 7 if you're SW with with I believe 9 unique models

 

So again I'm struggling to see your lack of options in models or load outs you appear to be missing? You still have the entire first born range AND the ever growing primaris range to choose from? Which lets be honest have great load out options! the new relic shield captain is a beast

 

 

If that's still not enough for you how about just doing what you want to do? NOBODY at GW has ever stopped (in fact only ever encouraged) people from converting their HQ models from whatever models they wish! What's stopping you from making a primaris sized smash captain and using the first born captain rules, the GW police aren't going to come and stop you no one cares and all you loose is a wound and a keyword

 

I just do not get this grape attitude anymore it's infuriating

[Halandaar]

It feels like there's a deliberate effort to miss my point here, so let me try and put it as succinctly as I can:

 

GW had to break their own rules to make these characters. That is stupid.

[WARMASTER_]

It feels like there's a deliberate effort to miss my point here, so let me try and put it as succinctly as I can:

 

GW had to break their own rules to make these characters. That is stupid.

I mean they didn’t though did they they made a named character. Are we going to start moaning about Dante’s axe soon? No didn’t think so, you can break their rules though no one will care or stop you

[Bryan Blaire]

I mean they didn’t though did they they made a named character. Are we going to start moaning about Dante’s axe soon? No didn’t think so, you can break their rules though no one will care or stop you

Yes, others, especially those you don't know well or places that have specific play restrictions, will care. No pick up games, tournaments, etc.

 

Even Crusade isn't an automatic "you can take anything you want" from what I've read - if there's a rule in there that states you can ignore the wargear restrictions on anything playing in it or the Relic requirements for upgrades, please point me to it. In fact, if you read the Crusade rules for Space Marines in Rubicon Primaris, it actually tells you that "If a Battle Honour cannot be applied (e.g. a Weapon Enhancement for a weapon that Primaris model cannot be equipped with), select a new Battle Honour to replace it." So shockingly, it actually tells you that Crusade is still limited by the rules restrictions GW has put into place for the game.

 

Halandaar is correct, it's stupid that GW had to break their own rules to make this new character (unless there's a hidden set of Named Character generation rules), who himself may actually be play restricted.

 

I've always been one for house rules, but house rules don't extend past three or four other likeminded folks, most times, and even among friends, it can be very hard to get agreement. You can't always get someone to accept "It's cool because GW said so in a video" - then why didn't they just put it in the rules?

 

Yes, there's potentially some legal reasons they've done as they have with the option restrictions (although this is likely not true, and a misunderstanding of the legal application of the judgment to imply that is the reason), and there's likely some game rule/balance reasons, as well as some sales "feels bad" reasons - that doesn't mean it isn't dumb - just because you can change something for yourself and/or your group doesn't stop said original thing from being dumb. Right now, there's a Relic for Space Wolves that, as far as I can tell, can't be taken by a Wolf Lord at all. That's pretty damn dumb.

[Halandaar]

I have the WD in front of me, here's a breakdown of the rules stuff.

• It's an Ultramarines successor, so can be used with the stratagems etc from the UM supplement. They recommend that you take the Bolter Fusillades and Indomitable successor tactics.
• The characters have points costs and I can't see anything that suggests you cant use them in matched play.
• All four characters have the same statlines and core rules as their generic counterparts, along with specific relics and warlord traits dictated to them. The main notable points are that you can potentially take 4 relics in a single list without it costing CP, and that (as has been discussed at length) three of these characters have wargear that is normally unavailable to generic models these are based on.
• Captain Nasiem is 10 points more than a Primaris Captain. He has a Master Crafted Power Axe and the Sunwrath Pistol from the UM Supplement. If he gets a warlord trait he must take Master of Strategy, and if he's in a Crusade force he gains the honorific Master of the Arsenal.
• Epitolary Lykandos is 5 points more than a Primaris Librarian, with a Bolt Pistol and a Force Stave, and the Reliquary of Gathalamor relic. If he gets a warlord trait he must take Calm Under Fire.
• Orator Sephax is 5 points more than a Primaris Chaplain, he has an Absolvor Bolt Pistol and the Benediction of Fury relic. If he gets a warlord trait he must take Iron Resolve.
• Ancient Kae is 15 points more than a Primaris Ancient, with a Bolt Pistol and Power Fist and the Seal of Oath relic from the UM supplement. If he gets a warlord trait it must be Nobility Made Manifest.
• On all four characters, the rule that dictates what their Warlord Trait is also specifically prohibits any other character from the army choosing the relic they are equipped with.

Edited November 18, 2020 by Halandaar

[L30n1d4s]

Any special/unique Stratagems, Relics, WL Traits, or other items that Tome Keeper get, outside of the recommended Chapter Tactics and the 4 special characters?

 

Thanks in advance.

[Halandaar]

Any special/unique Stratagems, Relics, WL Traits, or other items that Tome Keeper get, outside of the recommended Chapter Tactics and the 4 special characters?

 

Thanks in advance.

Nope! The recommended tactics and the characters are everything, rules-wise.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

Why is this in the ultramarines forum ?

 

 

Because they’re an Ultramarines successor.

Where is that officially stated ?

[Sword Brother Adelard]

 

 

Why is this in the ultramarines forum ?

 

Because they’re an Ultramarines successor.

Where is that officially stated ?

In White Dwarf, the development of the lore of the chapter has been ongoing for several issues now.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I looked and couldn’t find it. Are you sure ?

[KaosRaptor]

I looked and couldn’t find it. Are you sure ?

 

Issue 454, page 65: "In the end, we chose the Ultramarines, mainly because we didn't want the parent Chapter to be a defining element of the Tome Keepers."

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Damn. Ninja'd.

[Halandaar]

I looked and couldn’t find it. Are you sure ?

 

Also page 54, WD 458 (the newest one): "This sections presents the rules for fielding an army formed from the Tome Keepers chapter, an Ultramarines Successor Chapter. The rules in this section can be used alongside those found in Codex Supplement: Ultramarines".

[Brother Tyler]

Note that I split the side discussion about how to choose Chapter Tactics off into a separate discussion (in the Space Marines forum).

 

Let's keep this discussion on the topic of the Tome Keepers.

[Doghouse]

Having read this one thing I did see that I found interesting is that it specifically says how a chapter is formed. I've only ever seen hints and specualtion in the past as to the exactly how a Chapter is formed but this details the process which is a nice touch as I've never seen it specifically mention taking officers from a parent chapter in a codex beyond the Second Founding Horus Heresy material.

 

"As with most newly created Chapters, officers and specialists were requisitioned from the parent Chapter. Captain Caelus Viator, formerly of the Ultramarines 2nd Company, was elevated to the rank of Chapter Master, and he over saw the creation and training of four hundred battle-brothers over the following two decades. Their training ground would be that of Dornak IV, a barren death world in the Segmentum Solar.The new aspirants were subjected to years of harsh physical training, psycho-indoctrination, genetic alteration and painful surgical enhancements before they were ready to become warriors of the Adeptus Astartes. Several hundred passed the gruelling tests. Many thousands did not."