Chaos Space Marines using "marines"

[Prot]

Howdy,

 

Just a general question as I'm looking to reformulate some of my better lists (Black Legion traditionally) that are always basing troops off of Cultists.

 

I'm wondering if anyone had given marines as troops a real chance since the weapons have changed over/improved. Melta/flamers, etc... all better. Yes we're waiting for 2 wound marine rules to trickle down but even the chainsword improvement might be enough to tempt some aggressive players to try for close combat marines.

 

So is anyone putting them in games...since the changes? 

[Gederas]

I would be.... If my shop wasn't majority Marine players so I'm gimping myself now with the changes :lol:

 

Honestly, my Night Lord force has never used Cultists anyways. I just felt it was cheap/cheesy to spam cultists

[MasterDeath]

Chaos Marines in itself are allright, best with Chainswords as Bolter fire is useless. The swords have better interactions with things like DttfE and some legion specific stratagems. But the moment you compare them to loyal marines they seem bad. Guess what? No matter what troop choice you compare to marines troops, they lose.

10 Spiky boys with swords and maybe a fist are 150 points, and cant be ignored. (I would not use them in fives.)

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

I've been debating trying a 6/10 strong chainsword/double flamer squad to got in my ec's stormeagle as  an objective grabber, with either duel lightning claws or a power fist on the champion.

[Snazzy]

Yes.  But, i'm Black Legion.  We are encouraged to bring CSMs.

[Brom MKIV]

I have been using a couple setups. 2x5 with heavy bolter and the rest chainswords, with paired on the champs. And most recently a single unit of 9 all with chainswords and lightning claw/cs champ. Not a lot of CSM I know but it's more than in the past.

[Relic]

I use 1-3 units of spiky boys to fill a battalion. I tend to not invest points into them but I could see an argument for throwing a special/heavy weapon into a squad and for most legions, rocking the bolt pistol and chainsword look as the -1ap is better then our old Boltguns.

 

They aren't terrible I feel, but neither do they rock your world so I use them primarily as objective holders/action units. However as noted, a lot of weapons got nice buffs recently and whilst not as durable as our cousins, on paper you can get a five man CSM squad with for example a combi melta and meltagun for the same cost as five basic tactical marines.

[Brom MKIV]

Agreed. They won't ever be stellar I feel but now there's at least argument for including a minimal amount. That said my current list has 30 power armoured bodies. To me they're all chaos marines. I don't feel any obligation to take them all from troops.

[Prot]

I've made a few lists for a game I have in a few days... so far I am leaning towards a 10 man squad, chainswords, 1-2 Plasma guns, and includes 1 champ with a fist and Bolter.

 

My thinking is if they get a buff, it is better on the bigger squad. (IE: -1 to hit Apostle prayer), or FnP or whatever... but it's a lot of points. As Black Legion I can advance the unit, and still fire off 1-2 bolters, and the Plasma guns (at -1 to hit since they are treated as "Assault" for Black Legion) Not a great thing, but I keep hoping IF they make it in to CC, they will hit a low level unit with decent results. 

[Relic]

My feeling is that more often then not you tend to buff more valuable squads then your CSM and MSU in the current edition appears to be the preferred route for many. I am not dead set against it though, in truth although I have played a bunch of games with 3x5 min squads I haven't tried out alternatives in 9th as they tend to get the objective holders job in the list.

 

So I don't think I'd be best placed to comment. I may have to rectify this though and give them a few special or heavy weapons to see how the unit fares now. I don't think they are as awful as some make them out to be!

Edited November 17, 2020 by Relic

[Brom MKIV]

A medium unit is decent against other troops and for that little added threat saturation. You can't expect them to be heavy lifters but they can supplement other similar units. In my case 2 chosen and 2 berzerkers and terminators. Cultists are still good but they don't bring any threat so a medium csm unit is a way to hedge against the long games with a semi credible threat. Edited November 17, 2020 by Brom MKIV

[Doom Herald]

A large squad with long raged weapons is decent for objective camping in your deployment. I have been using 5-man squads with Chainswords and powerfist champ in 1,000 point games with good success. I've been playing creations of Bile though, so +1S, +1" move, and Macrotensile Sinews (advance and charge w/+1 to both), all of which make it much easier to get them into melee and make wound rolls.

 

I had a game against the new Death Watch and it was a close shave but Bile's boys pulled through, even with the wound discrepancy. Had they been 2 wounds, even with the point increase, I think they would have performed better though.

 

The powerfist being a flat D2 is nice. The AP-1 Chainswords is also nice. I haven't configured the new ranged weapons into the squad, so my ranged squad still used Autocannons. I imagine heavy bolters would be better.

[Relic]

A small but not minor point is that due to SM codex, multiple damage weapons are everywhere so maaaaaaaaaybe a cheaper base cost+improved weapons FAQ is not the end of the world for CSM.

[BrainFireBob]

10 bp/cc instead of 2x5?

[Doom Herald]

I've been doing 2 5 man squads at X4 pistols/Chainswords & X1 Champ with powerfist/Bolter because they are easier to conceal, ignore Blast, and give me an extra powerfist. Powerfist are the thing that really hit hard here. They also help to fill out troop slots this way.

 

In larger games than I've been playing, 10 man melee could be nice with an aggressive <LEGION>. Red Corsairs and World Eaters (though they get a better melee troop) stand out, probably even Bile. I think the biggest problem with higher than min size melee CSM squads is that the Berzerkers are more attractive and spending more points on your troop means spending less points on them.

 

I'm not sure I like melee CSM as an objective holders, they just aren't durable and they will often have to abandon an objective to charge or wait to be charged. They would be little more than bodies being shot at, which Bolter CSM can do with the added benefit of ranged weapons. They could be good objective stealers though, especially in <LEGION>s that get improved movement or charging, Red Corsairs, EC, or Bile for instance. In this case, I think large numbers and melee power would be a good thing. Make a long charge, beat down some enemy models, snag the objective with ObSec to deny them points. Even if they die next round, you denied them.

Edited November 19, 2020 by Doom Herald

[Relentless]

I've been running 5-man bolter squads with HB/missle launcher to compliment my berzerkers (which shouldnt be wasted as obj holders) and I like the results.  They are generally not shot at because they're a low priority target but can still pump out decent ranged damage on opponent troops while holding obj in or close to my deployment zone.  I can only see them being more useful (aggressive) once they get 2 wounds.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

I've been doing 2 5 man squads at X4 pistols/Chainswords & X1 Champ with powerfist/Bolter because they are easier to conceal, ignore Blast, and give me an extra powerfist. Powerfist are the thing that really hit hard here. They also help to fill out troop slots this way.

 

In larger games than I've been playing, 10 man melee could be nice with an aggressive <LEGION>. Red Corsairs and World Eaters (though they get a better melee troop) stand out, probably even Bile. I think the biggest problem with higher than min size melee CSM squads is that the Berzerkers are more attractive and spending more points on your troop means spending less points on them.

 

I'm not sure I like melee CSM as an objective holders, they just aren't durable and they will often have to abandon an objective to charge or wait to be charged. They would be little more than bodies being shot at, which Bolter CSM can do with the added benefit of ranged weapons. They could be good objective stealers though, especially in <LEGION>s that get improved movement or charging, Red Corsairs, EC, or Bile for instance. In this case, I think large numbers and melee power would be a good thing. Make a long charge, beat down some enemy models, snag the objective with ObSec to deny them points. Even if they die next round, you denied them.

See, I'm torn between powerfists and lightning claws on the aspiring champions as it just seems the claws are better in most cases due to the minus one to hit on the fists.

[MegaVolt87]

A claw will be useless to you if SM start crashing dreads into you to melee though. The base redemptor dread is a steal at 175 points, many lists run 2-3 as far as I can tell these days. Loyalist dreads of all stripes are go to units in 9th. Fists are fixed 2 dmg now, the -1 isn't a big deal really. 

[MasterDeath]

Powerfists are useless against dreads. The -1 damage makes them laughable.

[Gederas]

Powerfists are useless against dreads. The -1 damage makes them laughable.

This.

 

Thanks to the -1 Damage on Dreadnoughts, Power Fists and Thunder Hammers are awful against them.

 

Despite, you know. Those weapons being supposedly "anti-armour"

 

[Relentless]

Powerfists are still wounding dreads on 3s, which is better than 5s with anything else.  Though it's not really a good idea to charge a dread with a CSM squad anyway...

[Snazzy]

Depends.  If the Dread is close to dying, charge.  We always have Veterans of the Long War to help.  Astartes Chainswords wounding on 4s adds up.

[MegaVolt87]

Who was rolling consistant 3 dmg on the old PF? Average dice rolls on a D3 is 2 and often enough rolling a 1 for dmg happens on old power fist. Chain fist is D3 dmg, the profiles switched. Its better to have multiple chainfists, but a singular PF vs singular CF, PF is better. Plus we don't know how our aura's will work. Could only buff one unit with core, like the revised aura's in newer 9th codexes. So fixed 2 dmg is actually good for singular PF CSM champs IMO. Edited December 3, 2020 by MegaVolt87

[MasterDeath]

Sure just not vs. Dreadys. Here the CF deals at least 2 damage. Not that you can have one on a Champion. The claw would probably the best pick here again. Edited December 3, 2020 by MasterDeath

[MegaVolt87]

I'm not following how a LC is going to help a CSM champ out over a PF when SM dreads are becoming increasingly common than before. PF still would be the best choice on a regular CSM champ. I'm referring to multiple CF for terminators, PF is pointless there with the CF available.