Points values across editions – a challenge

[apologist]

Bit of an unusual thread; but I hope this is an appropriate place. I recently completed building a version of this army:

 

 

My version is here, for those interested:

 

The points value got me interested – as you can see, it was a 2,000pt army in Rogue Trader. I was idly wondering how it would translate to the later editions. I wondered if anyone with a spare evening (and an interest in points!) fancied totting it up in the various editions – purely for interest. 

 

So, the challenge, for anyone interested, is to pick an edition of your choice and make an army list that closely matches the image above as closely as possible.

 

Is there anything that would be illegal in particular editions – and how do you get round it? What tweaks do you need to make for particular editions? Which Codex or army book do you use? Bonus points for being WYSIWYG, and you're only allowed to consider the models shown. 

Edited November 19, 2020 by apologist

[Brother Tyler]

The Thudd Gun will be problematic in most editions until the thunderfire cannon, rapier, and others (?) are present, and the addition of the thunderfire often includes a Techmarine Gunner. Forge World might provide solutions.

 

If some other sort of dedicated gun platform is available (thunderfire cannon, rapier), that's the obvious substitution. For editions that don't have such options, I'd probably opt for an assault cannon/storm bolter dreadnought (other "comparable" vehicles such as the Rhino and Razorback have transport capacity). Either that or take a minimum sized Devastator squad with one or two missile launchers - or possibly increase the size of the Devastator squad and add a missile launcher.

 

If I have time for this and if no one beats me to it, I can take care of the 4th edition list (White Dwarf codex).

[No Foes Remain]

Thudd gun would make a good count-as for a Raiper Quad Launcher (like Tyler suggested) and I've made up a quick list for 8th/9th using battlescribe based on the pictures you placed in the Hall of Honours sub-forum.

 

Now first problem, using a Battalion Detachment isn't enough to cover for the HQ choices and requires 1 more troop choice although you could use two Patrol Detachments to get around this. Second problem is that this is just under 1,500pts instead of the 2,000 it used to be, possibly due to the reduction of extra options like digital lasers. Though its interesting to see that the Terminator squad is less than half the points cost it used to be.

 

But this is what I came up with, if I still had the older files on battlescribe I'd mock up a list for 7th ed but alas I do not.

 

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Blood Angels) [76 PL, 12CP, 1,480pts] ++

+ Configuration +

**Chapter Selection**: Blood Angels

+ HQ +

Captain [5 PL, 85pts]: Artificer Armor, Bolt pistol, Master-crafted boltgun, Warlord

Chaplain [5 PL, 80pts]: 5. Recitation of Focus, Boltgun, Litany of Hate

Librarian [5 PL, 90pts]: Bolt pistol, Force sword

Techmarine [5 PL, 70pts]: Bolt pistol, Omnissian power axe, Servo-arm

+ Troops +

Tactical Squad [10 PL, 200pts]
7x Space Marine: 7x Bolt pistol, 7x Boltgun, 7x Frag & Krak grenades
Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Missile launcher
Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Flamer

Tactical Squad [10 PL, 200pts]
7x Space Marine: 7x Bolt pistol, 7x Boltgun, 7x Frag & Krak grenades
Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Missile launcher
Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Flamer

+ Elites +

Apothecary [4 PL, 75pts]

Terminator Squad [9 PL, 200pts]
Terminator Sergeant
Terminator w/CF
Terminator w/Heavy Weapon: Assault cannon, Power fist
2x Terminator w/PF: 2x Power fist, 2x Storm bolter

+ Fast Attack +

Land Speeders [3 PL, 70pts]
Land Speeder: Multi-melta

+ Heavy Support +

Devastator Squad [12 PL, 230pts]
5x Space Marine: 5x Bolt pistol, 5x Boltgun, 5x Frag & Krak grenades
Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Missile launcher
Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Missile launcher

Rapier Carrier [4 PL, 95pts]
Rapier Carrier: Quad launcher
2x Space Marine Gunner: 2x Bolt pistol, 2x Frag grenade, 2x Krak grenade

+ Dedicated Transport +

Rhino [4 PL, 85pts]: 2x Storm Bolters

 

++ Patrol Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Blood Angels) [43 PL, 3CP, 825pts] ++

+ Configuration +

**Chapter Selection**: Blood Angels

+ HQ +

Captain [5 PL, 85pts]: Artificer Armor, Bolt pistol, Master-crafted boltgun, Warlord

Chaplain [5 PL, 80pts]: 4. Mantra of Strength, Boltgun, Litany of Hate

+ Troops +

Tactical Squad [10 PL, 200pts]
7x Space Marine: 7x Bolt pistol, 7x Boltgun, 7x Frag & Krak grenades
Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Missile launcher
Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Flamer

+ Elites +

Apothecary [4 PL, 75pts]

+ Fast Attack +

Land Speeders [3 PL, 70pts]
Land Speeder: Multi-melta

+ Heavy Support +

Devastator Squad [12 PL, 230pts]
5x Space Marine: 5x Bolt pistol, 5x Boltgun, 5x Frag & Krak grenades
Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Missile launcher
Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Missile launcher

+ Dedicated Transport +

Rhino [4 PL, 85pts]: 2x Storm Bolters

++ Patrol Detachment -2CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Blood Angels) [33 PL, 1CP, 670pts] ++

+ Configuration +

**Chapter Selection**: Blood Angels

+ HQ +

Librarian [5 PL, 90pts]: Bolt pistol, Force sword

Techmarine [5 PL, 70pts]: Bolt pistol, Omnissian power axe, Servo-arm

+ Troops +

Tactical Squad [10 PL, 200pts]
7x Space Marine: 7x Bolt pistol, 7x Boltgun, 7x Frag & Krak grenades
Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Missile launcher
Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Flamer

+ Elites +

Terminator Squad [9 PL, 200pts]
Terminator Sergeant
Terminator w/CF
Terminator w/Heavy Weapon: Assault cannon, Power fist
2x Terminator w/PF: 2x Power fist, 2x Storm bolter

+ Heavy Support +

Rapier Carrier [4 PL, 110pts]
Rapier Carrier: Quad heavy bolter
2x Space Marine Gunner: 2x Bolt pistol, 2x Frag grenade, 2x Krak grenade

[Leonaides]

The points discrepancy from the original 2k list will be the disjunction from 2nd edition to 3rd edition where characters stayed at a similar points level but squads on the whole halved in cost. Its not quite aa exact as that but close enough as a rule of thumb.

Should say I'd happily work out a 2nd ed list for this tomorrow unless someone beats me to it...

[Warhead01]

The points discrepancy from the original 2k list will be the disjunction from 2nd edition to 3rd edition where characters stayed at a similar points level but squads on the whole halved in cost. Its not quite aa exact as that but close enough as a rule of thumb.

Should say I'd happily work out a 2nd ed list for this tomorrow unless someone beats me to it...

Do it!

Your right squad costs were something like 300 base cost but I can't recall if it was the same for ever squad, assault, devastator ect. 

 

I'd have loved to do the 3rd edition list but my old books are nowhere to be found any more. Their could be a list made generically from the black codex in the back of the 3rd edition rule book or the SM+BA codex and supplement. I'd almost think the black codex might have a thud gun in it for Space Marines. Or maybe there's a citadel journal article for it? 

I must say I really like the idea of one list with minor adjustments able to shuffle between each edition.  

Edited November 19, 2020 by Warhead01

[Morticon]

Awesome thread is awesome. 

 

That is all.  

[Xenith]

Seeing as I can recite the 3rd ed codex from heart:

 

Force Commander (Captain), arty armour, iron halo, term hons, bolter, frag grenades - 113

Commander - power sword, bolter, frag - 62

Libby - force sword, psy hood, bolt pistol - 127

Chappy - crozius, rosarius, plasma pistol - 85 (BA actually couldnt take this model in 3rd, The BA chaplain came at 180pts with death co in tow).

Command Squad - Apothecary, narthecium, reductor; techmarine, servo arm- 150

Terminators - AssCan - 230

 

Tac Squad 1 - flamer, ML, frags - 176

Tac 2  - flamer, ML frags - 176

 

Speeder - MM? - 65

 

Dev squad - 2ML, 2HB, Frags - 220

 

(Blood Angels) Rhino - 65

 

Whirlwind (thudd gun sub) - 75

 

Total 1946pts

 

I made a few substitutions there, and this isn't a legal army due to the plethora of HQ choices. I added the command squad due to no medic or separate techmarine choices. No way to get the random unit of 3 techmarines in there. The librarian in the above army has no wargear beyond a sword, so in the 3rd ed list I added the really expensive force sword (40pts) and pychic hood. Whirlwind replaced the Thudd Gun, as an indirect fire weapon. In 3rd ed there was no 'Captain', you had Leaders, Commanders, and Force Commanders, with 1, 2 and 3 wounds respectively. Refractor field replaced with Iron Halo, no option for digi weapons, so Terminator Honours for an extra attack instead (basically what they did anyway).

Edited November 20, 2020 by Xenith

[Brother Tyler]

A few changes become necessary to update this army list for 4th edition (using the Blood Angels pdf codex that was first printed in White Dwarf Magazine).

 

The force organization chart for standard missions limits the list to two HQ choices (vice the four that are on the original list). In addition, a number of choices in the list aren't available as individual units. The Apothecary can only be taken as a Sanguinary Priest in an Honour Guard and the Techmarine (Tech-Adept) can only be taken as either part of the Honour Guard or one per vehicle. So I've dropped the Lieutenant, Apothecary, and Techmarines and replaced them with an Honour Guard (the Lieutenant becomes the Company Champion), which comes slot-free in the company of either the Captain (who becomes Tycho) or Librarian. Similarly, I've dropped the Chaplain and replaced him with the Death Company, which is free.

 

[blood Angels] Rhinos aren't available as a separate unit, but can be taken as a dedicated transport for certain units. Since I've replaced the Chaplain with the Death Company, I've opted for the Rhino to belong to the Death Company.

 

The Thudd Gun (Quad-Launcher) was available in 4th edition via the Siege of Vraks Part 1. That model is normally accompanied by 3 [imperial Guard] Troopers equipped with lasguns or laspistols, but I'll replace those three models with a single Blood Angels Space Marine equipped with a bolter (I'd convert/paint him with some Tech-Adept markings to show that he's not just some scrub).

 

And naturally, I'd replace the "Captain" with Brother-Captain Tycho.

 

 

HEADQUARTERS CHOICES

Brother-Captain Tycho

(combi-melta, artificer armour, bolt pistol, iron halo, frag and krak grenades)

110 points

 

Honour Guard

Company Champion (power weapon, combat shield, frag and krak grenades)

Veteran (bolt pistol, chainsword, frag and krak grenades)

Sanguinary Priest (bolt pistol, chainsword, exsanguinator, frag and krak grenades)

Tech-Adept (bolt pistol, power weapon, frag and krak grenades)

Standard Bearer (bolt pistol, chainsword, frag and krak grenades)

210 points

 

Librarian

(bolt pistol and force sword)

120 points

 

ELITES CHOICES

Terminator Squad

Sergeant, power sword, storm bolter

2x Marines, power fist, storm bolter

1x Marine, chainfist, storm bolter

1x Marine, assault cannon, power fist

235 points

 

Death Company

5 models (1 for Honour Guard, 1 ea for Tactical Squads, 1 for Devastator Squad, 1 for Terminator Squad)

Blood Angels Rhino transport

40 points

 

TROOPS CHOICES

Tactical Squad

Sergeant and 7x Marines (bolt pistol, bolter, frag and krak grenades)

1x Marine (bolt pistol, missile launcher, frag and krak grenades)

1x Marine (bolt pistol, flamer, frag and krak grenades)

205 points

 

Tactical Squad

Sergeant and 7x Marines (bolt pistol, bolter, frag and krak grenades)

1x Marine (bolt pistol, missile launcher, frag and krak grenades)

1x Marine (bolt pistol, flamer, frag and krak grenades)

205 points

 

FAST ATTACK CHOICES

Land Speeder Squadron

1x Land Speeder

65 points

 

HEAVY SUPPORT CHOICES

Devastator Squad

Sergeant and 5x Marines (bolt pistol, bolter, frag and krak grenades)

2x Marines (bolt pistol, missile launcher, frag and krak grenades)

2x Marines (bolt pistol, heavy bolter, frag and krak grenades)

260 points

 

Quad Launcher

70 points

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/public/style_emoticons/default/banana.gif TOTAL POINTS

1,520 points

 

(Hopefully I didn't screw the math up. )

[Xenith]

A few changes become necessary to update this army list for 4th edition.

 

The force organization chart for standard missions limits the list to two HQ choices (vice the four that are on the original list). 

 

 

BT, I know you're using the pdf codex, but the normal SM codex might work for this:  I'm 99% sure the 4th ed marine codex had an often overlooked rule allowing for 'advisors' to attach to an command squad - you could attach one chaplain and one librarian to another characters' command squad without using another slot.

[apologist]

Coo, thanks for all the interest and lists so far – it's interesting to see how 'points inflation' has fluctuated. 

 

I originally posted this in Amicus Aedes, as at the time, Space Marines were only really differentiated by colour scheme; the GW studio army might just have easily been White Scars as Blood Angels. I wonder if, as Xenith suggests, some of the awkwardness could be removed by using the various iterations of the standard Codex space marine army lists?

 

With that said, it's interesting to see how the various versions of the Blood Angels Codex cope with the restrictions of the models above. It'll likely prove handy to expanding the army, too; so thank-you all! 

[Brother Tyler]

I originally posted this in Amicus Aedes, as at the time, Space Marines were only really differentiated by colour scheme; the GW studio army might just have easily been White Scars as Blood Angels. I wonder if, as Xenith suggests, some of the awkwardness could be removed by using the various iterations of the standard Codex space marine army lists?

I moved it to the Blood Angels forum because it looked like a Blood Angels thing. If your intent is to see how the 1st edition list might be updated as an Adeptus Astartes thing (vice just Blood Angels), we can move it over to the Space Marines forum.

 

...I know you're using the pdf codex, but the normal SM codex might work for this:  I'm 99% sure the 4th ed marine codex had an often overlooked rule allowing for 'advisors' to attach to an command squad - you could attach one chaplain and one librarian to another characters' command squad without using another slot.

Yes, the Space Marines codices had a rule that went something like (using the version from Codex: Space Marines):

 

SPACE MARINE CHARACTERS

...

 

3. Librarians and Chaplains may be attached to another character's Command squad. Only one character of a given type may be attached to a single Command squad. The attached character, the squad and the character leading it are a single HQ choice. The attached character is a member of the unit and may not leave it. If the unit is destroyed the attached character and the leading character may operate independently.

 

That rule doesn't appear in the Blood Angels pdf codex, unfortunately. However, we could update the 1st edition list to 4th edition a little more closely via Codex: Space Marines. It might look something like:

 

HEADQUARTERS CHOICES

Commander (Captain)

(master crafted power weapon, bolt pistol, artificer armour, bionics, iron halo, frag and krak grenades)

144 points

 

COMMAND SQUAD

Sergeant (terminator honours, bolt pistol, power weapon, frag and krak grenades)

Company Champion (power weapon, combat shield, bolt pistol, frag and krak grenades)

Apothecary (bolt pistol, chainsword, narthecium, reductor, frag and krak grenades)

Company Standard Bearer (company standard, bolt pistol, chainsword, frag and krak grenades)

Space Marine (bolt pistol, chainsword, frag and krak grenades)

185 points

 

Chaplain (Reclusiarch)

(bolt pistol, Crozius Arcanum, Rosarius, frag and krak grenades)

(joins the Captain's Command Squad to take up no slot)

89 points

 

Librarian (Epistolary)

(bolt pistol, force weapon, psychic hood, frag and krak grenades)

(joins the Captain's Command Squad to take up no slot)

119 points

 

ELITES CHOICES

Terminator Squad

Sergeant, power weapon, storm bolter

2x Marines, power fist, storm bolter

1x Marine, chainfist, storm bolter

1x Marine, assault cannon, power fist

225 points

 

Techmarine

(bolter, power weapon, signum, auspex, and servo-arm)

65 points

 

Techmarine

(bolter, power weapon, signum, auspex, and servo-arm)

65 points

 

TROOPS CHOICES

Tactical Squad

Sergeant and 7x Marines (bolter, frag and krak grenades)

1x Marine (missile launcher, frag and krak grenades)

1x Marine (flamer, frag and krak grenades)

Rhino

246 points

 

Tactical Squad

Sergeant and 7x Marines (bolter, frag and krak grenades)

1x Marine (missile launcher, frag and krak grenades)

1x Marine (flamer, frag and krak grenades)

196 points

 

FAST ATTACK CHOICES

Land Speeder Squadron

1x Land Speeder (heavy bolter)

50 points

 

HEAVY SUPPORT CHOICES

Devastator Squad

Sergeant and 5x Marines (bolter, frag and krak grenades)

2x Marines (missile launcher, frag and krak grenades)

2x Marines (heavy bolter, frag and krak grenades)

250 points

 

Quad Launcher

70 points

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/public/style_emoticons/default/banana.gif TOTAL POINTS

1,704 points

 

It's weird going back to making 4th edition lists (I hope I didn't screw it up).

 

I gave the Captain a power weapon even though the original had a bolter and bolt pistol. This was because the potency of independent characters was usually centered around them getting into melee. So unlike the Blood Angels version, this isn't intended to use the Tycho model, instead using a more typical Captain model.

 

I've removed the Lieutenant, replacing him with the Veteran Sergeant in the Command Squad. The Command Squad also allows for the Apothecary (who is shown bearing a banner in the original image, so I've included the Company Standard Bearer). The Command Squad also allows the Chaplain and/or Librarian to come along for free. I only need to do this with one of them since the Command Squad doesn't take up a slot, but I've done it for both of the characters since they're shown with the Captain in the original image.

 

The force organization chart for standard missions allows up to 3 elites choices, so I've been able to bring 2 Techmarines (vice the 3 in the original list).

 

I've reverted the Rhino to one of the Tactical Squads, in line with the image of the original list.

 

As before, the inclusion of the Quad Launcher/Thudd Gun is by permission of the opponent since it's not a unit normally allowed to a Codex: Space Marines army. If I were to replace it with something for the Adeptus Astartes, I would go with either the Rapier w/ quad heavy bolter or a Tarantula with Hyperios missile launcher (the former can move while the latter is stationary). I don't remember the costs for either off the top of my head and my copy of the first edition of Imperial Armour Volume Two is in the garage somewhere, so I'm not going to go looking. The costs in the second edition of that book might not be accurate, but both are less expensive than the 70 points for the Quad launcher.

[Leonaides]

So an equivalent 2nd ed list clocks in at 2260, with 2 swaps for the lieutenant (to a basic chaplain) and the thudd gun (to a twin missile launcher taratula). I haven't added wargear cards etc or optimised the list (at least 1 tech marine should have had a jump pack, vortex grenade and bionic eye for the 20" 2+ to kill anything in the game) so with wargear upgrades you'd be looking at at least 2500 for this list. I'll type it out later for comparison. I couldn't find by black codex (which does have a thudd gun in) which could have been taken as an allied unit to make it fit closer.

 

Where wargear cards have been put in they are in italics, i have only added those i can reference within AoD codex as all my old ones are up the warp loft.

 

Edit: Full List (sorry but no fancy formatting, mods - im assuming posting 24 year out of date points for an outdated ruleset arent a problem but if so, let me know and i will consider myself chastised and remove them)

 

Characters (up to 50% of points)

 

Captain                      110 pts

Bolt Pistol, Bolter, Digi Lasers, Refractor Field, Frag Grenades

 

Chaplain                    53            (Replacing Lieutenant)

Bolt Pistol, Frag Grenades, Crozius Arcanum, Rosarius 

 

Librarian                    162

Bolt Pistol, Frag Grenades, Force Sword, Lvl 3 Psychic Mastery

(This was another decision, as the original list states lvl 2 psychic mastery but also names him as Epistolary - in the 2nd edition Epistolary is a lvl 3 mastery. I have gone with the names position as i believe psychic mastery levels could be purchased independently from the models stat-line in rogue trader)

 

Chaplain                    53

Bolt Pistol, Frag Grenades, Crozius Arcanum, Rosarius

 

Apothecary                42

Bolt Pistol, Frag Grenades, Chainsword, Medipack

(stock equipment with the addition of a chainsword)

 

Techmarine               33

Bolt Pistol, Frag Grenades

 

Techmarine               33

Bolt Pistol, Frag Grenades

 

Techmarine               33

Bolt Pistol, Frag Grenades

 

Squads (must be at least 25% of army points):

Tactical Squad          354

Missile Launcher, Flamer

 

Tactical Squad          354

Missile Launcher, Flamer

 

Devastator Squad    420

2 Missile Launchers, 2 Heavy Bolters

(no additional special rounds for missile launchers or Hellfire Rounds for heavy bolters)

 

Terminator Squad     358

Storm Bolters, Power Fists, 1 Power Sword, 1 Chainsword, 1 Assault Cannon

 

Support (up to 50% of points):

 

Rhino                       50

Twin-linked Bolters

 

Landspeeder           145

Heavy Flamer, Multimelta

(no choices here - stock speeder is all anyone gets apart from Dark Angels who only get the Assault Cannon/Heavy Bolter version but not this one)

 

Tarantula                 75

Twin Missile Launchers (krak rounds only), 1 Servitor Crewman

(as i said earlier, this is the closest equivalent swap i could see for a static(ish) artillery piece. Could have gone with a whirlwind for an artillery equivalence, but this felt closer to me. If i find my black codex in the next couple of days then I will swap this out for a Thudd Gun at the correct points level as it woudl simply be an allied unit and come under the support points allocation anyway)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 21, 2020 by Leonaides

[LameBeard]

If I remember correctly, Techmarines are a kind of “tax” for taking the vehicles and artillery? We can see one in the photo next to the thudd gun but not the other two - it might be they are driving the rhino and land speeder. I also think the lieutenant rides the land speeder in this list. So a little more abstraction in later editions should be fine. I have an old Blood Angels codex I don’t think has been done yet so I’ll look later.

 

Awesome army by the way. More photos including close-ups please!

Edited December 1, 2020 by LameBeard

[Closet Skeleton]

Black Codex Thudd Gun is a 30 point weapon choice for a 9 point servitor. Its the cheapest support weapon.Tarantula is a seperate option on there despite it being one option per servitor so you can't buy a tarantula and a gun for space marines but its probably a misprint since the Imperial Guard have the same support weapons list with a twin lascannon included with the tarantula.

 

A codex angels of death twin-lascannon tarantula is 75 points while a black codex one is 64 points so I wouldn't say you can just use the Black Codex for it.

 

A Genestealer Cult Thudd Gun from the 2nd ed Tyranids codex is 45 points with 2 brood brothers crew but all the Cult support stuff with 2 brood brothers over 1 servitor cost an extra 5 points so maybe around 40 points is correct. Don't have the Imperial Guard Codex but I'd check that over the Black Codex.

Edited December 2, 2020 by Closet Skeleton

[Leonaides]

You could use the black codex version, taking it as an allied unit from the imperial units list where grey knights/inquisitors/assassins etc were and put it into the marine list that way.