Can we talk about Eradicators?

[Debauchery101]

GW isn't the worst at balancing and yes they tend to boost first then dial it back. We need to also look at the fact that we have 1 xenos codex and 2 marine faction codex books. It's highly likely all the new codex releases are already in print or sitting on pallets ready to ship. We should wait on any major balancing requests.

[Alcyon]

I agree with Dracos that vehicles (and especially Knights) are worse in 9th because they don't have ObSec and count as 1 model for objectives. Also, almost every tank in the Space Marine codex is overcosted so from a B&C perspective they're especially bad. It's not just Eradicators suppressing the use of vehicles. 

 

Ironically, given that people are only bringing 1-2 squads right now, the best way to bring tanks in 9th is probably just to give up Bring It Down and run 4+ vehicles since Eradicators can only target one thing per squad if they want to shoot twice. If they're t7 or less and few wounds that's even better since it makes them overkill. For example James “Boon” Kelling's list from the Mid-MO Maelstrom had eight vehicles at T5/6 and 8w max. We saw two Archaeopter Fusilaves in Damien Owen's AdMech from Warzone: The Dark Times and Andrew Gardenhire’s Adepta Sororitas had plenty of T5 Mortifiers. So it's mostly marines that aren't playing vehicles and for good reason. And that's WITH marine players running 3-6 Plasma Inceptors, too.

Edited November 20, 2020 by Alcyon

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I've read a LOT about how over powered, undercosted, bonkers ridiculous Eradicators are, how giving them 6 man squads meant that 18 would be in every competitive list.

 

And yet, while vehicles (the best targets for melta weapons) got a decided boost this edition;

- the presence of secondary objectives meaning that vehicle heavy lists start the game with a VP disadvantage - every kill gives up VP

- moving into the mid board is a big deal so hanging back with shooty tanks is limited

- board control is a lot easier to achieve with multi model units than singular vehicle/monsters

- melta CRUSHES vehicles/monsters

 

Take a look at competitive analysis on sites like Goonhammer. Vehicles are rare, one to two big monsters in a list, either horde of single wound infantry or elite multi wound infantry/bikes. With ctan shards following ghazal with the "3 wounds per phase" thing, I expect other lords of war to follow suit

 

The marine dreadmash list might appear at some point, but for now eradicators merely feel highly efficient against multiwound infantry ather than game breakingly overwhelming.

 

Am I wrong?

Well sticking with goonhammer eradicators have shown up in alot of the marine top 4 lists that they've shown. Obviously they don't fit with every chapter but if they're still worth running while their best targets don't really see play what does that say about how good they are?

 

In general multi-melta and eradicators make me think of craft world Eldar right now. CWE have always been advertised as an army of specialists you that you have to find the right balance to be successful with. In practice though when they've been on top it's been by spamming a weapon type and a few choice units.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

How easy is it to kill necron vehicles with quantum shielding ?

[The Unseen]

How easy is it to kill necron vehicles with quantum shielding ?

Much easier now that its *can't be wounded better than 4+ and a 5++ save*

But they do better than most vs melta.

[Snazzy]

I'll go on record as saying Eradicators are busted.  The primary reason is their unit special rules.  Without that, nothing seems outrageous for their cost and footprint.

 

The bigger problem with vehicles is that so many of them are relics of older editions where their weapons were dangerous and their points balanced to what they are.  I am firmly convinced that there are legacy issues at work with many 40k entries.  There is no reason for any infantry unit to have Ld 8 or higher as a base given how Morale tests work in this edition.  Vehicles having lower relative T compared 3rd-7th edition is silly when considering how S vs T works in 8th and 9th.  A S8 Krak missile glanced a Land Raider on a 6.  Today, it wounds on a 4+.

 

Additionally, i think GW overvalues mobility.  Vehicles tend to be faster than infantry, and ignore Heavy weapon penalties.  That is the real strength of vehicles in 9th, not survival.  We can debate how to make vehicles survive longer, but i think GW wants the opposite.  They created Eradicators.  They made Meltas far more dangerous.  

Edited November 20, 2020 by Snazzy

[Alcyon]

I don't think they're busted - we are seeing Attack Bikes and ATVs and things like that in top lists right now too, so they aren't eclipsing all other C:SM anti-tank. 

 

Otherwise I agree with you about the legacy issues and vehicles generally being outclassed, and also about mobility. 44x60" board size too reduces the necessity of mobility when you have both MSU and strategic reserves. Frankly I don't think GW really has enough data or insight into the meta to make appropriately informed decisions about weapon upgrades; they do stuff and see the result then react. The fact that Falcon and 40kStats was the source of all their meta info in the latest WarCom article just proves that.

[Dracos]

 

 Multimelta has received 2 direct buffs this edition. It's average damage output at close range has gone up from 4.5 to 5.5 and it has twice as many shots. Eradicators get the first buff and can simulate the second provided they do not split fire. 

 

 

So that's 2 points more damage on average? 

 

Six pounds of salt was deleted from this post: How about we try and get better at playing the game before tearing Eradicators down to almost uselessness (see Aggressors downfall). I started a thread on Eradicators a month ago to share the realities of Eradicators and how the meta ... not GW holding our hands ... could counter them. What it came down to was that are good for one turn and then they die. If they end up more than that then you really do need to get better at the game.

 

I played a vehicle heavy Guard list recently. I had no Eradictors. I struggled against Sentinels in hth and had to ignore the tanks as much as possible because

 

A: as a Primaris player I haven't had a anti-tank unit to use in my army ... three years running.

 a2) my Eradicators aren't painted yet)

B:  killing tanks wasn't going to get me Victory Points.

C: even if my Eradicators were ready they should kill two tanks then die to return fire. Its a wash unless the opponent is bad. 

 

My point is Eradicators don't win games. Vanguard Vets have better chance of doing that for you. Crap Terminators today do that better for you. At least they deep strike natively. 

 

So that's 2 points more damage on average? 

 

 

 

 James “Boon” Kelling's list from the Mid-MO Maelstrom had eight vehicles at T5/6 and 8w max. We saw two Archaeopter Fusilaves in Damien Owen's AdMech from Warzone: The Dark Times and Andrew Gardenhire’s Adepta Sororitas had plenty of T5 Mortifiers. So it's mostly marines that aren't playing vehicles and for good reason. And that's WITH marine players running 3-6 Plasma Inceptors, too.

 

These are players who find answers. According to Metawatch Astartes re 18% of the meta. Sallies and White Scars are 8% of that. There is no doubt SM are winning at a high rate but as more games are played the meta is adjusting and that number is dropping.  It was the same before covid though. Problem is imo marine fatigue over accentuates anything good about Astartes. Eradicators aren't winning tournaments. They are just the new hotness that helps. As GW brings out more Faction updates that fatigue will wear off and everyone can go back to complaining about the real enemy. Eldar ... the right answer is always Eldar

 

So only three pounds of Salt instead of nine. I understand haters are going to hate, I just hope I didn't offend anyone even after self edits. Just ... a site dedicated to the Bolter and the Chainsword has seen A LOT of HATE past few months for Marines, especially anything Primaris and it definitely comes across personal after awhile. We wouldn'y allow this much negatively charged discussion to take place with other Factions. Allowing it for the founding family seems unreal.

 

Stepping off my soap box to go paint models people hate.

 

 

PS: my thought is change assault to rapid-fire and lose the double shoot rule. I could be wrong but it would nerf and still allow possibility to still be devestating if situation (read opponent) allowed.

Edited November 20, 2020 by Dracos

[Debauchery101]

I honestly am feeling like a lot of peoples opinions on how Eradicators should be changed or nerfed is backed up by a huge lack of actual gaming. There are missions and board setups that make these guys a lot less effective. For each dude you kill these guys really start sucking. If youre spending any type of minimal screening for these guys you can keep them from being within melta range. That random d6 damage alone is really not something you want to rely on. Its better to wax whatever screened you from deep striking or outflanking into melta range and make that unit a threat again.

We haven't even see how nasty they are probably going to get once there's competitors using them as DW and later as Raven Guard. Death guard is right around the corner. They tank melta just as easy as any

 

If anyone spent half the time being salty over these guys whether its not owning them or the potential of them being spammed on you. You could easily play some games and figure out how to play against them.

Edited November 20, 2020 by Debauchery101

[Karhedron]

 

Multimelta has received 2 direct buffs this edition. It's average damage output at close range has gone up from 4.5 to 5.5 and it has twice as many shots. Eradicators get the first buff and can simulate the second provided they do not split fire.

 

So that's 2 points more damage on average? 

 

No, that's 6.5 points more damage on average. Previously a MM would average 4.5 wounds per failed save at close range. But doubling the shots and increasing the damage for each shot means 11 wounds (2 x 5.5). If you factor in the fact that moving platforms also lost the -1-to hit, a MM attack bike now outputs over 3 time as much damage as it did in 8th edition.

 

Now I am not arguing MMs didn't need a buff as they were very poor in 8th but damage has gone up around 250% while price has gone up 47%. The abundance of cheap, high damage anti-tank weapons has created a meta where mid-priced vehicles struggle to survive.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

So the new Necron vehicles can tank melta.

 

I think cheap transports are still good for a variety of reasons.

[Debauchery101]

So the new Necron vehicles can tank melta.

 

I think cheap transports are still good for a variety of reasons.

people may want to deny it or may not be thinking of it but I think the era of the drop pod wall of terrain its back

 

Deploy troops on ground drop a wall of pods in front of anti tank troops or anything you want to slow down. Drop them on flanks to block the outflank reserves...This new edition is all about maneuverability and controlling it

Edited November 21, 2020 by Debauchery101

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Drop pods can be strong for sure I agree. I used to play a Blood Angels drop pod army back in 4th edition... you could pod in dreadnaughts. It was a lot of fun. I would say now deploy behind the drop pods using them as a screen. This could work for Space Wolves now I think.

[Debauchery101]

Drop pods can be strong for sure I agree. I used to play a Blood Angels drop pod army back in 4th edition... you could pod in dreadnaughts. It was a lot of fun. I would say now deploy behind the drop pods using them as a screen. This could work for Space Wolves now I think.

4th and 5th i was all about Blood Angels mech lists...4 razors with assault marines, a couple baal preds, 6 land speeders and some beefy SGs.

I miss heavy flamer templates and speeders deep striking.

 

But yeah the drop pods are great. If youre hugging them they only do 1 mortal on a 6 when they explode... So a safe bet

 

I will admit that it would be an ultra WAAC strategy mostly likely increasing salinity in your opponent

Edited November 21, 2020 by Debauchery101

[Captain Idaho]

My thoughts are: Most people will only take a single unit of Eradicators, which generally means they will kill a tank when they come on from Outflank. It is your job as an opponent to anticipate that behaviour (you know ahead of time they are Outflanking) and either minimise the loss through infantry screens or counter attack effectively and neutralise them after they've hit he board.

 

Sure, if you've got a single vehicle then it will be a prime target to things like Eradicators, but if you've got a few then it's just a loss you roll with.

Edited November 21, 2020 by Captain Idaho

[Closet Skeleton]

 

You basically have all these vehicles and units that were designed around multimeltas having one shot, but now they have two. Those units are sort of arbitrarily twice as effective as they were expected to be. Meanwhile things like the guns on Armiger knights end up looking pretty average.

 

You're making a mistake here and misunderstanding the design process. There's some connection between model design and rules design but the models always come first. The guy who put a big melta gun on the armiger had no idea what the rules were going to be.

 

The Immolator got its multi-meltas in 3rd ed where a twin-linked multi-melta was one shot but still the most reliable way to get a penetrating hit on a tank. Retributors have been beating out Dominions for a while now and the 8th ed codex just made it way worse by nerfing the special rule of one while giving two special rules to the other.

 

Multi-meltas were blast in 2nd ed, I assume changing that to a single shot was to balance them against plasma cannons.

 

Devil dogs are definitely in a weird place right now, as are heavy flamer hull chem cannon hellhounds but that'll get sorted out.

[XeonDragon]

I always thought thta Multi-Meltas should be more than one shot. (They have two barrels, and the clue is somewhat in the name!) But I wonder if the shot change, AND the damage output change were just too much all at once?

 

I think this might be right. My soloution would be keep the changes (e.g. two shots), but make the damage D3+1 normal range, D3+2 melta range. I think it would really tone down the melta weapons. They'd more be reliable and less swingy than plasma, still effective without being OTT.

[Kallas]

 

I always thought thta Multi-Meltas should be more than one shot. (They have two barrels, and the clue is somewhat in the name!) But I wonder if the shot change, AND the damage output change were just too much all at once?

 

I think this might be right. My soloution would be keep the changes (e.g. two shots), but make the damage D3+1 normal range, D3+2 melta range. I think it would really tone down the melta weapons. They'd more be reliable and less swingy than plasma, still effective without being OTT.

 

Personally I'd go with the normal d6 at range, and the 'melta effect' changes it to d3+3. Makes it way more reliable, but keeps the max at 6 damage per shot.

[XeonDragon]

Yeah, that works a treat as well - I like ! :D

[tychobi]

Problem seems to be the the double shoot rule to me. At some point they make their money and they go the way of agressors.

[Mandragola]

I'd make Melta something like reroll to wound, rather than extra damage. I don't like rolling 2D6 and picking the highest, because you have to do each gun individually.

 

Anyway my point about things like the Immolator is that doubling the shots mucks up the balance - between armies, between units within the codex and even with the other options the tank itself can take. Comparing two heavy bolters with two multimeltas now is kind of absurd, when the meltas have such an enormous advantage in firepower. This thing is going around with roughly the damage output of a Land Raider - more AT than a Repulsor Executioner now it's lost its double-shooting ability. That's simply not what anyone ever envisioned, including the model designers.

[Ishagu]

Problem seems to be the the double shoot rule to me. At some point they make their money and they go the way of agressors.

Attack Bikes have as much firepower. All sorts of units have a similar number of shots.

 

Having used them in a few games they definitely aren't some auto-win unit. Their appearance in many good lists is also not an indication that they are over-powered, but merely that they effectively fulfil their role.

Edited November 23, 2020 by Ishagu

[Dracos]

The case before the jury continues. :)

 

If something is truly OP and cost effective it would not only is seen in every list it is lll would be spammed in most of those list.

 

I would like to bring the use of Dark Reapers by the Eldar to the attention of the jury. :) .... and Flyrants .... and Demon Princes .... the new Slaanesh monster hotness for a more current example.

 

If Eradicators were the same ballpark as Reapers and those that followed I’d better understand the crying. I havant seen more than one unit of Eradicators in most the tournament list Goonhammer has featured and usually only one. Thank you your Honor.

[Ishagu]

Just because they feature in most lists doesn't mean they are broken.

 

Hive Tyrants feature in most Tyranid lists.

Venoms feature in most Dark Eldar lists, etc.

 

The army is good, but 6 months from now the whole landscape will probably change. Don't be reactive in the short term. This isn't a video game, and people need to remember that everything isn't updated simultaneously.

 

@Dracos

 

How many games have you played featuring Eradicators since the new codex dropped?

Edited November 23, 2020 by Ishagu

[H311fi5h]

The case before the jury continues.

 

If something is truly OP and cost effective it would not only is seen in every list it is lll would be spammed in most of those list.

 

I would like to bring the use of Dark Reapers by the Eldar to the attention of the jury. .... and Flyrants .... and Demon Princes .... the new Slaanesh monster hotness for a more current example.

 

If Eradicators were the same ballpark as Reapers and those that followed I’d better understand the crying. I havant seen more than one unit of Eradicators in most the tournament list Goonhammer has featured and usually only one. Thank you your Honor.

 

People aren't using more Eradicators because there aren't any targets for them. Say you bring 18 Eradicators and meet an Ork horde list - now you have a big problem. If you meet a guard tank company, you get an auto win of couse, but there aren't any of those around. There are Ork hordes though. Therefore one rather brings things like plasma inceptors which do work against anything you might meet in a tournament.

If Eradicators and other melta offenders weren't a thing Chimera spam lists would be popular for sure.