Can we talk about Eradicators?

[BluejayJunior]

I'd make Melta something like reroll to wound, rather than extra damage. I don't like rolling 2D6 and picking the highest, because you have to do each gun individually.

 

That isn't how melta works anymore. It's +2 damage at half range now. 

[Riddlesworth]

 

People aren't using more Eradicators because there aren't any targets for them. Say you bring 18 Eradicators and meet an Ork horde list - now you have a big problem. If you meet a guard tank company, you get an auto win of couse, but there aren't any of those around. There are Ork hordes though. Therefore one rather brings things like plasma inceptors which do work against anything you might meet in a tournament.

If Eradicators and other melta offenders weren't a thing Chimera spam lists would be popular for sure.

This is the point I was making in the OP

Right now, i have 250 points left in list design and my anti T7/8 is covered by plasma inceptors, smash chaplain, smash captain and aggressors in combat and I'm looking at tournament lists as well as my local meta. I can probably justify 1 min unit of eradicators. Anymore feels like a stretch.

[Dracos]

If Eradicators and other melta offenders weren't a thing Chimera spam lists would be popular for sure.

Lol. No. No they wouldn’t. Not competitively at least. Not because of melta either. Those would still be targeting the Russes and Sentinels first. Chimeras aren’t a thing because Ogryn can get up the board on their own fairly well and strategic reserves makes most transports increasingly redundant. In a fun list sure. I use to have a Guard army. I love my Chimeras. They weren’t a competitive choice even then though. Now with Orders even less so.

 

Ishagu @ I’m just getting my Eradicators ready onto play with after Thanksgivings. Here in Indianapolis at the moment Marines aren’t Uber popular. I’ve observed a few games where I’ll see a unit of three, two units once. For all the reasons we’ve mentioned. It’s a specialist unit of limited efficiency. I could have used one taking on Orks a while back and Guard more recently. I still one those games though so haven’t been in a rush to put my two units of 5 together. It’s just not a unit worth getting worked up over. I think it’s an internet sensation more than one on the table.

 

People want to worry about Marine hotness? Take a look at Plasma-Inceptors. Which is funny because a year ago no one would touch them with a stick dipped in crap. Fortunes rise and fall.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

A lot of the top tier SM lists that are winning majors now have two squads of Bladeguard and two squads of Eradicators. Doesn’t matter which chapter. So are BGV broke and totally OP ?

[Debauchery101]

Its like you guys want to have another thread a year from now named "CAN WE TALK ABOUT ERADICATORS?"

Except will have questions like

"Why do they cost so much"

"Why did they lose their double shoot"

"Are these still viable in a competitive build?"

"Why did they lose outflank?"

 

[Debauchery101]

A lot of the top tier SM lists that are winning majors now have two squads of Bladeguard and two squads of Eradicators. Doesn’t matter which chapter. So are BGV broke and totally OP ?

thats actually a great point. Because during my clubs lil tournament a max size unit of blade guard supported by a chief apothecary, an upgraded primaris ancient and a couple company vets was walking through everything. He got beat by the Harelquins i played against for the final match, who beat me as well..but I was not wanting to face that lol.

[Volt]

Eradicators main concern is in board side. In the new smaller game sizes they absolutely dominate if played right as the enemy player can literally not put vehicles beyond their range (unless you have little terrain) and ensures nothing is safe from reinforcements coming on the side of the board and plugging a vehicle or monster. But in larger games they're 24" footslogging or dependent on a transport and can be avoided by spreading an army out on the sides to prevent deep strike. In your larger (or rather, normal) sized games, it's probably to bring Attack Bikes, Land Speeders, or Invader ATV's for the melta pain train.

[Mandragola]

 

A lot of the top tier SM lists that are winning majors now have two squads of Bladeguard and two squads of Eradicators. Doesn’t matter which chapter. So are BGV broke and totally OP ?

thats actually a great point. Because during my clubs lil tournament a max size unit of blade guard supported by a chief apothecary, an upgraded primaris ancient and a couple company vets was walking through everything. He got beat by the Harelquins i played against for the final match, who beat me as well..but I was not wanting to face that lol.

 

Simple answer is probably "yes" bladeguard are also extremely good. If all the top armies are using the same stuff, that stuff is probably too good.

[Riddlesworth]

Bladeguard

Plasmaceptors

Eradicators or MMAB

 

Pretty much every tournament list I see has 2 of the 3

[Dracos]

The thing is though it’s nice to actually have space marine units which are actually good instead of mediocre at something. I still think rapid-fire might be a good compromise on the Eradicators double shot issue. The other units are good but not OP in my opinion. It’s just Marines haven’t had good infantry units in ages. Good Strats and Chapter Tactics yeah overly so sometimes. Right now I think in 6 months they’ll be good but other faction codexes bringing them up to challenging.

 

Always better to balance by giving not taking if at all possible imo.

[XeonDragon]

The thing is though it’s nice to actually have space marine units which are actually good instead of mediocre at something. I still think rapid-fire might be a good compromise on the Eradicators double shot issue. The other units are good but not OP in my opinion. It’s just Marines haven’t had good infantry units in ages. Good Strats and Chapter Tactics yeah overly so sometimes. Right now I think in 6 months they’ll be good but other faction codexes bringing them up to challenging.

 

Always better to balance by giving not taking if at all possible imo.

 

I was chatting with some veteran players yesterday about this - the idea of a rapid-fire rule and the 1d6/1d3+3 in melta range both got tumbs up and vigorous head nods :D

[Debauchery101]

The moment the Eradicators get changed something else will be used in a spamming or combination strategy that is the next most efficient option. Then what? You gonna mad at people spamming 3x3 mm attack bikes and 3x3 ATVs?

[SkimaskMohawk]

The moment the Eradicators get changed something else will be used in a spamming or combination strategy that is the next most efficient option. Then what? You gonna mad at people spamming 3x3 mm attack bikes and 3x3 ATVs?

I don't know if anyone's mad. I think it's some people are saying "hey they seem very good for their role...and every top tournament list has these units in them" and other people saying "just because they're in all the top lists doesn't mean they're over powered or too efficient" .

 

But like, marines have a lot of very efficient melta platforms. Imo the points on melta weapons didn't get adjusted properly across the board. I'm glad they're good now; they were doa in 8th. But you see the top lists all seem to use melta now; harlequins and various marine chapters and sisters of battle all leverage the new melta with speedy and general high damage units in tandem.

 

I see a lot of the counter arguments of eradicators being along the lines of "but attack bikes are better" or "would these other units now be considered op if eradicators got nerfed?" . The answer is the attack bikes and outriders are also very point efficient anti-tank platforms that provide a lot of similar benefits. If a tournament staple unit can be easily replaced, the replacement unit is probably also a problem.

[Debauchery101]

Can't yall just wait until every marine supplement is released? Were also getting other factions codex books with those.

If you arent willing and able to field the most competitive armies then why partake in competition? If you feel that some lists are gimmicky and will overpower yours then ask a guy to not take that if youre playing casual.

[Snazzy]

I've likely used the strongest language, but i'm not upset by Eradicators.  They just seem like a candidate for a future point increase.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Bladeguard

Plasmaceptors

Eradicators or MMAB

 

Pretty much every tournament list I see has 2 of the 3

Yeah and typically more than one unit of each as well. I think MM weapons/eradicators should go up about 5 points a piece (the melta gun is fine). Bladeguard should get a similar increase, Plasmaceptors should cost more than hellblasters.

[Ishagu]

Well, I use 5 Eradicators in games I play regularly, and they are not changing the game or dictating play. They are very effective against a singe vehicle or monster, yes, but have a host of weaknesses including slow movement, close combat, no invul, etc.

 

We should also be expecting Marines to be the dominant faction right now as they are one of only two factions to have a new codex. Let's see how the Dark Eldar shake things up in the new year. If, after a bunch of other factions get their codex, these units are still very dominant then the price should be adjusted.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Well, I use 5 Eradicators in games I play regularly, and they are not changing the game or dictating play. They are very effective against a singe vehicle or monster, yes, but have a host of weaknesses including slow movement, close combat, no invul, etc.

 

We should also be expecting Marines to be the dominant faction right now as they are one of only two factions to have a new codex. Let's see how the Dark Eldar shake things up in the new year. If, after a bunch of other factions get their codex, these units are still very dominant then the price should be adjusted.

It really depends on the FF and which chapter tactics get used. Pure ultras you're totally right in their weaknesses. Some other chapters can skew them to being a decent melee unit or get around mobility issues. I've played a couple games with my eradicator blob where I was able to master of ambush them into a strong position, nuke down a threat and then beat up on objective scorers and cause a nuisance in my opponents dz.

 

That's part of the problem analyzing a single unit when it can change so dramatically based on chapter selection.

[Ishagu]

That is a good point. It's why adjustments have to be considered carefully.

 

Increasing points might make them reasonable for one chapter, but complete trash for another.

 

Often times the problems lie with sub-faction rules as much as they do with the unit. Not that I feel Eradicators are game breaking, they simply do their job well - in fact they are probably the only truly good anti-tank Primaris unit, alongside the go-karts perhaps lol

Edited November 25, 2020 by Ishagu

[SkimaskMohawk]

For sure, but as I mentioned earlier I think the culprit is melta on the whole. Maybe not every melta weapon needs a point increase, but the multi melta, pistol and possibly the heavy rifle could be a bit more expensive. I don't think the harlequin fusion is pistol is worth 5 points for example, or the SoB inferno pistol compared to the 10 point combi-melta.

 

If we look at the cost break down of the SoB

Melta weapons it goes

 

- 5 pt inferno pistol

- 10 pt melta gun; double the range, double the points

- 20 pt multi-melta; double the range AND double the shots for double the points.

 

So ya, the MM could use a points boost to maybe 25.

[Captain Idaho]

I say put the base cost of the Eradicators up slightly instead of ruining melta for everything else.

 

Or just increase the melta on the Eradicators since we can do that now.

 

But I just don't think they really need adjustment just yet.

[Ishagu]

I say we wait and see what Xenos weapons look like after a few codex updates.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I say put the base cost of the Eradicators up slightly instead of ruining melta for everything else.

 

Or just increase the melta on the Eradicators since we can do that now.

 

But I just don't think they really need adjustment just yet.

A 5 point increase on a multi melta ruins it? That's an exaggeration. The only unit it'd get tricky on is a land raider where it'd be 30, but 10 points on an eradicator? 15 on an ATV or attack bike or speeder? 25 on a dev? Hardly ruined.

[Captain Idaho]

Yes, it does. Why would you take a Multi-Melta on a Devastator squad for 25pts when you could take any of the other weapons for half the points?

 

Attack Bikes MM going from 10pts to 25pts is increasing the points of the Attack Bike by over 50%.

 

That's why GW gave the new Codex books points for weapons inside each unit. You can adjust each unit a lot more finely.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yes, it does. Why would you take a Multi-Melta on a Devastator squad for 25pts when you could take any of the other weapons for half the points?

 

Attack Bikes MM going from 10pts to 25pts is increasing the points of the Attack Bike by over 50%.

 

That's why GW gave the new Codex books points for weapons inside each unit. You can adjust each unit a lot more finely.

Uhhh...The weapons that would be half the points of the 25 multimelta are already half the points of the 20 point multimelta. They also fill completely different roles. The only main anti-tank weapons are lascannons at 15, missiles at 15 and multimeltas at 20 currently. You have less range and a point less strength (which is far less important than it used to be) but gain double the amount of shots and a far better damage roll. There's no consideration, especially with drop pods and the strat existing.

 

And what I actually said was increase by 5 points; make the 20 point multi melta 25, make the 10 point 15. Like actually spelled it out. Not sure how you managed to misrepresent making them all cost 25 flat.

Edited November 25, 2020 by SkimaskMohawk