Cheap units for secondaries.

[momerathe]

So this is inspired by a recent Goonhammer article which discussed two lists - White Scars and Ultramarines - that had a 2 or 3 2-man units (company veterans and victrix guard respectively) for scoring secondaries. I was really taken by this idea; with a quality-heavy army that leans towards chonky units for maximising buffs, you don't normally have the flexibility of many units like lesser foes. There's a lot of secondary objectives that just require a couple of warm bodies that you might not want to dedicate a 5-man squad to.

 

I'm not thinking quite so much about objective grabbers - they're more likely to come under some kind of enemy assault, so probably want to be a bit more resilient than what I'm talking about here, but that could also factor into things. I think another point here is that you kind of want your opponent to ignore them; whether they don't present enough of a threat or they're too annoying to deal with.

 

 

So on that note:

 

Company veterans - are a stand-out choice because they're (I think) the only 2-man squad we have access to. 40 points bare-bones, and a slot-less choice if you have a captain. Easy to hide, you could give them storm shields if you want to make them more annoying to shoot at. Could even be worth giving them a melee weapon to discourage charges, but I'd keep it cheap. I wouldn't give them a special weapon as they would be more likely to draw fire that way.

 

Servitors - are even cheaper at 30 pts. Leave them stock as none of the weapon options are worth it. OTOH they are chaff and will die to a stiff breeze. Also kinda ugly and slow. But cheap!

 

Scouts - ah, the poor scout, we hardly knew you. 70 stock, 80 with cloaks, they're a proportionally more expensive than the other two options but their saving grace is built-in Outflank, making them practically impossible to stop for something like Deploy Scramblers.

 

 

Anyway, with the current state of the world god knows when I'll get the chance to try it out, but I'd be interested to hear if anyone else has any thoughts or suggestions for other units to use in the same role.

[Karhedron]

I have been giving the same issue some thought. Deploy Scramblers looks like a pretty easy Secondary to achieve with a little bit of planning. Granted it is capped at 10 VPs but in many cases, I would rather go for a relatively easy 10 VPs than go for something harder and not achieve it at all.

 

Scouts with their built-in Outflank are perfect for deploying Scramblers in your opponent's DZ on Turn 3. There should have been significant casualties by that point so your opponent will be hard pressed to screen his entire DZ effectively. If your opponent fails to kill them, you can either hide to help achieve "Engage on All Fronts" or "Line Breaker" or they can go and annoy something late-game.

 

Company Veterans are good if you are taking a Transport of any kind. If you are taking a MM Dev squad and a character, you might have a couple of spare slots that you can fill up with a pair of Veterans. There are several Action Objectives they can accomplish or they can simply run around being there for EOAF or LB. I agree that keeping them cheap is probably good but Storm Shields to keep them alive might be useful.

 

Servitors are...... cheap. Personally I am not sure that is enough of a saving grace for such ugly models but when you need to shave off an extra 10 points, it might be worth it.

[Xenith]

Good discussion and one with potential!

 

I seem to recall Storm bolter + chainsword/storm shield company vets seeing a bit of table time in early 8th mainy as a cheap distraction, but 2x storm bolter/shield vets would be cheap and put out decent firepower at 24" if they are standing still on an objective.

[BluejayJunior]

I think this is a role that assault squads could be used for. Not necessarily the best choice, but a use for them. Bare bones, an assault squad doesn't seem very threatening, so your opponent may ignore them for other threats in your army. They've got good mobility. And once you hit Assault Doctrine, they can hit somewhat hard in combat. 

[smileyjim]

I've been thinking on this, using a drop pod with grav devs to delete some nasties, but having another squad in there to do what your taking about. Currently leaving towards just attacking squad, they are cheap not that threatening but can still hit harder than expected in combat thanks to our +1 to wound.

Most importantly though they are obsec, if there's a space to drop in deployment they can back cap an objective.

 

Also y h e drop pod itself could be very handy and annoying. It would count as unit for both oath of moment if dropped in centre, or EOAF or line breaker. And who wants to waste a turn with something that can kill a T6 W8 +3 when there's the rest of your army doing scary things.

[Shaezus]

2 x company vets often found a place in my 8th Ed list. The only problem now is points are so much tighter.

 

if you're going for deploy scramblers then 2 vets and a scout squad or another 2 vets if you're happy to pay CP to put them in reserve.

 

engage on all fronts: assault squads, bikes, land speeders all serve as cheap support. with BA your stronger units will likely also fulfill this role but the extra bodies gives more flexibility. if only company vets still had jump packs...

 

oath of moment: scouts to deploy as close to the centre as possible whilst out of LoS. fine if you choose to go second and move into the centre, but stronger units like Phobos or San guard or blade guard can hold better whilst moving up the

 

linebreaker: personally I think it's worth using a drop pod for this. even a 2 man veteran unit would help you get the 4 points on turn 1. Throw more in and you have a good distraction whilst your other stuff moves up and it will score again if it isn't dealt with

[Karhedron]

Drop Pod really is a 2-for-1 for both Line Breaker and EOAF. Nobody wants to waste shooting or melee to remove a metal box after it has deployed its occupants but if left alone, it will sit there quietly racking up VPs.

 

I rather like the idea of sticking a pair of Vets with storm shields in there to play hide-and-seek in the late game. They may be able to accomplish stuff simply by being alive.

[Jolemai]

You can't do both of those though, it's one or the other.

[Shaezus]

You can't do both of those though, it's one or the other.

After the new codex was released you mentioned a need for discussion on secondaries. It's still needed methinks.

 

The question of the thread should be turned on its head; the real question to ask is which secondaries do people want to go for. I'd go as far as to say secondaries should be the biggest factor in list - building.

 

Oaths of Moment is my first choice. I've used it every game I played since the new Dex and it is so good because you get points for doing things you will be doing anyway. Marine units tend to be small, so they're more likely to die before being forced to even take a morale check. Falling back rarely happens for the same reason. Many units can function well for moving into the centre for the 2 points. Honestly you can afford to fall back or fail morale several times with this and still exceed the maximum 15 points.

 

Which leaves Engage on All Fronts and Linebreaker as the most "BA friendly". Deploy scramblers is also a safe choice if not so rewarding.

 

So folks, consider not so much the cheapest units but the most suitable and how to enable them to score whilst also having a list capable of shooting / bashing the opponent off his objectives and secondaries

Edited November 21, 2020 by Shaezus

[Jolemai]

 

You can't do both of those though, it's one or the other.

After the new codex was released you mentioned a need for discussion on secondaries. It's still needed methinks.

It looks like you've misunderstood me here. I was saying that you can't take both Engage On All Fronts and Linebreaker secondaries (as these are from the same category).

[Morticon]

125 Points - 5x Scouts of your choice (though Im partial to fighty ones) plus the VERY useful Land Speeder Storm. 

It's a first turn Enemy Deployment Zone scrambler run in a lot of cases.  A fair sacrifice for securing 10VP, imho. 

[SnorriSnorrison]

125 Points - 5x Scouts of your choice (though Im partial to fighty ones) plus the VERY useful Land Speeder Storm. 

It's a first turn Enemy Deployment Zone scrambler run in a lot of cases.  A fair sacrifice for securing 10VP, imho.

 

After a move into the DZ you could also possibly achieve linebreaker as well if you have a second LSS. Scout unit deploys and scrambles, the other LSS advances into the DZ for a first turn linebreaker. (Unless I’m missing something and both secondaries from the same category).

[Shaezus]

 

 

You can't do both of those though, it's one or the other.

After the new codex was released you mentioned a need for discussion on secondaries. It's still needed methinks.

It looks like you've misunderstood me here. I was saying that you can't take both Engage On All Fronts and Linebreaker secondaries (as these are from the same category).

I shouldn't have quoted your initial message, I just wanted to get your attention without using "@Jolemai", which might seem lazy

[Shaezus]

 

125 Points - 5x Scouts of your choice (though Im partial to fighty ones) plus the VERY useful Land Speeder Storm.

It's a first turn Enemy Deployment Zone scrambler run in a lot of cases. A fair sacrifice for securing 10VP, imho.

 

After a move into the DZ you could also possibly achieve linebreaker as well if you have a second LSS. Scout unit deploys and scrambles, the other LSS advances into the DZ for a first turn linebreaker. (Unless I’m missing something and both secondaries from the same category).

They're from different categories. Pretty sure it's ok for a unit to score two secondaries in one turn too?

[SnorriSnorrison]

 

 

125 Points - 5x Scouts of your choice (though Im partial to fighty ones) plus the VERY useful Land Speeder Storm.

It's a first turn Enemy Deployment Zone scrambler run in a lot of cases. A fair sacrifice for securing 10VP, imho.

After a move into the DZ you could also possibly achieve linebreaker as well if you have a second LSS. Scout unit deploys and scrambles, the other LSS advances into the DZ for a first turn linebreaker. (Unless I’m missing something and both secondaries from the same category).

They're from different categories. Pretty sure it's ok for a unit to score two secondaries in one turn too?

Yeah, should be no problem then! Turn 2, deepstrikers/assault units or just fast jump squads can contribute towards the tally even more.

[Karhedron]

125 Points - 5x Scouts of your choice (though Im partial to fighty ones) plus the VERY useful Land Speeder Storm. 

 

It's a first turn Enemy Deployment Zone scrambler run in a lot of cases.  A fair sacrifice for securing 10VP, imho.

For comparison, a 5-man Tac squad in a drop pod costs a bit more at 160 points but brings a lot more durability. This is useful if you want them score Line Breakers or EOOF. Also you can guarantee that your Pod won't get shot down T1 by sneaky shenanigans if you don't go first.

 

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying the Scouts + LSS don't have merit, I am just thinking about alternatives.

 

In fact if we just want a cheap disposable unit, the Scouts don't even need the LSS. They can just outflank and turn up on T3. It is also a guaranteed 10VPs and your opponenta can't do much about it unless they want to screen their entire DZ in the face of your continued acts. It might save them the 10 VPs but most armies would be sacrificing control of the midfield to do so allowing you to max out on Primaries.

[Morticon]

Thats really a really good consideration! 

I just like the idea that the LSS can also turn off OW and do the whole -1 to hit thing on top of it all! Helps with EoF too. (but then, so does the Pod!!) 

[Debauchery101]

2xMulti melta attack bikes. Pretty cheap unit of t5 8 wounds with a nice amount of firepower.

 

They may be a bit too costly if you already invested in Eradicators but they have a great threat range.

 

I also really like land speeder tempests for contesting and attacking objectives.

[Xenith]

I had 5 scouts with a fist do some work for me last game. Outflanked T2 to take an objective in my opponent's DZ, get a quarter for EOAF and repair homer. Lots of output for 80pts. 

Edited November 25, 2020 by Xenith

[Karhedron]

A free outflank opens up lots of possibilities. Even no longer being Troops, I may still hang on to a unit of Scouts.

[Xenith]

Yes, I think they cause an opponent a lot of problems. They would previously get shot to pieces, however now armies have to push out of their deployment zone to win, assaulty armies have to dedicate forces to remove them, blunting their main offensive, or give up their DZ - great for things like ransack, or Raze (?I think).

[Debauchery101]

I had 5 scouts with a fist do some work for me last game. Outflanked T2 to take an objective in my opponent's DZ, get a quarter for EOAF and repair homer. Lots of output for 80pts.

you unfortunately made a mistake. You are not allowed to enter their deployment zone on turn 2... turn 3 you can and you can never come in from their board side....unless scouts now get an outflank that has different rules and seperate from reserves rules... Edited November 25, 2020 by Debauchery101

[Hintzy]

Scouts do have a separate rule. They have the Outflank ability which is similar to Strategic Reserves, but not limited to specific board edges.

[Karhedron]

Scouts do have a separate rule. They have the Outflank ability which is similar to Strategic Reserves, but not limited to specific board edges.

 

This gives Scouts an edge over simply plonking a regular unit in Tactical Reserve.

[Jolemai]

Yeah, a board edge.