Saturday Reveals

[solarisqc]

I like the ''don't peak under the christmas tree''... maybe they will do the reveal on christmas.

 

I don't think we get the Lion now but Luther/Marbas will be something big and realy nice to reveal just before the DA supplement get release, with a new campain book for the fallen and DA.

 

Edited: add link to Q&A look at 24m : Warhammer - Twitch

Edited November 23, 2020 by solarisqc

[aura_enchanted]

One thing that makes me wonder:  (quote from Warhammer Community) "You’ll also be able to:Initiate units (including Dreadnoughts!) into the Deathwing".

Obviously it's just talking about Dread and maybe LRs since everyone knows all infantry in Deathwing uses Terminator suits..... except they don't.

From what I read it seems other units could be introduced to Deathwing, is it reasonable?

Going by reason, Deathwing induction needs to do something to vehicles as well, since it mentions Dreads( and I doubt they can get the "wound on 4+" rule ).

Even if some of our battle brothers will see ( Blood Angel) red at me saying this, I suspect we will see the current Inner Circle stay the same, but it will apply to only some units of the DW ( characters and termies, maybe with a point bump), while other units inducted will have something else.

 

they could have it so u could make veterans as well maybe? maybe battle tanks? 

[Cpt_Reaper]

I would say non-named Captains Company Masters and Dreadnoughts, with a maybe for Land Raiders and Repulsors. The only non-TDA Infantry will likely be Bladegaurd Veterans, and they already have the Deathwing Keyword.

[WARMASTER_]

I agree with all of the above apart from I think company vets might also have the option as they’re the ones lore wise that get picked for DW

[Angel of Solitude]

We've seen the approach GW have taken to upgrading units (Chapter Command), and that's to make them more expensive. This feels like the most sensible approach to take in my mind, as it's far more flexible than making it a stratagem. An incremental points costs for a unit can range from 0-whatever. An incremental command point cost can only really go from 0-3. This gives GW a far more flexible nerf-bat, should they chose to use it, and in the first instance I think we'll see this happen first with the Chapter Command upgrade points (looking at you, Chief Apothecary!).

 

In terms of how the "upgrade to Deathwing" mechanism will work, there are two different interpretations to consider: give the unit the DEATHWING keyword and nothing else, or give the unit DEATHWING and the Inner Circle ability. 

• If you give just the DEATHWING keyword, then this will allow your characters to take Deathwing-specific relics and warlord traits, and it will allow CORE units to benefit from the various Deathwing-specific auras. A couple of dakka-Redemptor Dreadnoughts with Belial giving full-rerolls? Interestingly, Land Raiders wouldn't benefit from this.
• If you give the Inner Circle ability too, then this could get really interesting. +5pts per model (say) to give a unit the Inner Circle key word...Blade Guard and Company Vets have been mentioned, but Aggressors? Heavy Intercessors? Far-fetched I know, but interesting nonetheless.  

[WARMASTER_]

Great points I imagined you would have to change the model though like when your first born crosses the rubicon primaris

 

So say a company vet joins and then you swap him for a terminator or a veteran intercessors becomes a bladeguard model etc

[WrathOfTheLion]

Likely the Deathwing vanguard detachment will require all entries to be Deathwing keyworded.

 

Adding it to LRs, Repulsors and Dreadnoughts would then let those units be taken in that detachment.

[Gederas]

I just read the Crusade thing for Blood Angels. Wow that is fluffy and cool.

 

Now I can't wait to see how hard the Dark Angels one sucks and is ALL ABOUT FALLEN ALL THE TIME, right lads?

Edited November 24, 2020 by Gederas

[WrathOfTheLion]

Hopefully not too much on that. I think it'd be perfectly fine for some of it, but I'd like to see a mix of various things.

[Berzul]

We can absolutely expect some mechanics to be about the Fallen.

 

This, however, might not be that big of an issue. It could include mechanics that are NOT dependent on the enemy actually playing the Fallen; similar to this "Find the Cure" mechanic for the Blood Angels, for instance. Perhaps something along the lines of getting a Ravenwing Character, or an Interrogator Chaplain, within an objective. Performing an Action. Do this X number of times in a battle and "learn something about the Fallen" for some extra XP.

 

Something for you to play a bit at your guys chasing the Fallen, even if it is something that matters nothing t the opponent and their army at all.

[davextreme]

There’s a small bit in either the 8th Ed codex or Ritual of the Damned where a Librarian has a vision of a huge army of Fallen that’s been recruited. It’s not impossible they could become a Chaos faction. Would be interesting and could potentially expose the Dark Angels’ secret and put them at odds with some imperial factions. I don’t give it high odds, though.

 

I did have plans at one point to build a Renegades and Heretics army. The idea was it was a set of Imperium worlds that were rebelling and a small group of Fallen came in to help them along. Now R&H has been demoted to Legacy, though. It could still be some with just regular Astra Militarum or a Chaos soup force with lots of Cultists, potentially.

[Aeri]

Since the Bladeguard kit has not yet been released, I guess it will be released alongside our codex.

 

I think upgrading units to Deathwing and Ravenwing will be similar to what blood angels got.

Too similar for my taste. Where is the spice?

[solarisqc]

Since the Bladeguard kit has not yet been released, I guess it will be released alongside our codex.

 

I think upgrading units to Deathwing and Ravenwing will be similar to what blood angels got.

Too similar for my taste. Where is the spice?

I disagree, in the codex space marine, bikek and terminator already get the Deathwing/Ravenwing keyword same for librarian.

 

I think we will be able to upgrade Captain and Lieutenant to Deathwing. No upgrade for chaplain but Int. Chaplain are all Deathwing/inner circle.

 

Ravenwing unit will all gain the jinx and Deathwing will all gain the inner circle.

 

About Balance:

Don't forget a ravenwing unit will have the jinx save or the +1 to hit if they don't move, but will never have both at the same time (excluding stratagem), The Jinx rules is like a variant chapter tactic for the ravenwing.

 

For Deathwing it's more complicate, Inner circle is useless for vehicule. Unit like Dreadnought/Land raider gain nothing from it.

Many Character are WS/BS 2 so don't benefit from the chapter tactic except if they have -1 to hit and they don't do morale test, the Fearless from inner circle is useless and the chapter tactic for combat attrition don't do anything. The inner circle rules almost like another chapter tactic for them.

 

Unit like terminator are more complicate, because they can benefit from the +1 to hit and from the inner circle. On a side note, they are part of the DA legacy and have always been fearless. If after the new rules for DA we start to see a single squad or 2 of Deathwing terminator in each armies, i don't think it's problematic.

 

For other unit, upgrading a full squad of marine to Deathwing will be a big NO for me, but allowing the sergent of any squad to be part of the Deathwing will be a realy interesting twist to our rules and will be perfect for modeling project.

[solarisqc]

This is just fluff with absolutly no impact on rules but i realy hope they rename al DAl captain to master in our supplement with a mention saying it's the same as captain for rules purpose.

Also if we can have the option to upgrade a master to Grand Master to make custom Ravenwing/Deathwing GM it will be great.

[Berzul]

 

Since the Bladeguard kit has not yet been released, I guess it will be released alongside our codex.

 

I think upgrading units to Deathwing and Ravenwing will be similar to what blood angels got.

Too similar for my taste. Where is the spice?

I disagree, in the codex space marine, bikek and terminator already get the Deathwing/Ravenwing keyword same for librarian.

 

I think we will be able to upgrade Captain and Lieutenant to Deathwing. No upgrade for chaplain but Int. Chaplain are all Deathwing/inner circle.

 

Ravenwing unit will all gain the jinx and Deathwing will all gain the inner circle.

 

About Balance:

Don't forget a ravenwing unit will have the jinx save or the +1 to hit if they don't move, but will never have both at the same time (excluding stratagem), The Jinx rules is like a variant chapter tactic for the ravenwing.

 

For Deathwing it's more complicate, Inner circle is useless for vehicule. Unit like Dreadnought/Land raider gain nothing from it.

Many Character are WS/BS 2 so don't benefit from the chapter tactic except if they have -1 to hit and they don't do morale test, the Fearless from inner circle is useless and the chapter tactic for combat attrition don't do anything. The inner circle rules almost like another chapter tactic for them.

 

Unit like terminator are more complicate, because they can benefit from the +1 to hit and from the inner circle. On a side note, they are part of the DA legacy and have always been fearless. If after the new rules for DA we start to see a single squad or 2 of Deathwing terminator in each armies, i don't think it's problematic.

 

For other unit, upgrading a full squad of marine to Deathwing will be a big NO for me, but allowing the sergent of any squad to be part of the Deathwing will be a realy interesting twist to our rules and will be perfect for modeling project.

 

So, if you go down the list of rules that come from Inner Circle, you have:

 

1) Auto-pass morale tests. Which is irrelevant for vehicles, characters, and most squads since DW don't really go on large numbers per squad.

 

2) Non-vehicle units cannot Fall Back when engaged with Fallen units. Which is somewhat irrelevant since it is entirely dependent on the presence of the Fallen (which, as it has been amply discussed, is a very, very, VERY rare occurrence at the tabletop).

 

3) When you fall back, you need to roll below your Leadership on 2D6. This one actually affects vehicles, and could come in play on a more regular basis... which is sad, because it is not a special ability, it is a penalty or a hindrance. Weird that the ONE thing so far down this list that the Inner Circle keyword has, that might come into play, is a negative debuff on our units.

 

4) Unmodified rolls of 1 to 3 on the wound roll always fail against Infantry. This one is, of course, the real ability that we are here for. Morale is secondary at best. This is THE thing we want. Now, vehicles don't get it, and also, TDA Characters such as the Master, Librarian and Ancient don't get it either, which, you know... sucks. But, that is probably temporary, and we can expect the supplement to expand upon this and give Inner Circle to the rest of the Deathwing.

 

Still, although the 4th part of the ability is absolute gold, the keyword itself either provides little benefit to the overall army, and in fact, is more applicable to hurt us than help us in the first 3 parts of it.

 

Jink is clearly the better special rule, here, regardless of how amazing it is to have permanent Transhuman Physiology on the terminators.

[solarisqc]

 

 

3) When you fall back, you need to roll below your Leadership on 2D6. This one actually affects vehicles, and could come in play on a more regular basis... which is sad, because it is not a special ability, it is a penalty or a hindrance. Weird that the ONE thing so far down this list that the Inner Circle keyword has, that might come into play, is a negative debuff on our units.

...

 

•While this unit is within Engagement Range of any enemy Fallen units, unless this unit has the Vehicle keyword, this unit cannot be selected to Fall Back.

 

•Each time you select this unit to Fall Back, unless it has the Vehicle, Ravenwing or Chapter Master keywords, roll 2D6: if the result is less than or equal to the unit’s Leadership characteristic it can Fall Back, otherwise it cannot Fall Back and must Remain Stationary instead.

 

Inner circle have no effect on vehicle.

Edited November 26, 2020 by solarisqc

[solarisqc]

For Ravenwing, the only unit with inner circle and Ravenwing keyword are Blacknight and Samael, they can't fall back vs fallen but don't have to make Ld test when engage vs other unit.

 

The Ld test to fall back is a realy big flaw for Inner circle. When you have 2-3-4 unit with inner circle engage, making lots of Ld test can be hard and if you fail a single test, you stay engage, the rest of your armies can't shoot the ennemy target and the unit stuck engage will fight after the ennemy unit in your turn.

 

IMO this is the main argument for the strong Inner circle rules (permanent transhuman), Deathwing/inner circle are resilient, but they don't run away even if it will be better to run away and let the rest of the armies shoot your target.

[bigtrouble]

I don’t think there is any way bladeguard are getting inner circle. They already have strat support specifically as primaris. Therefore, deathwing and inner circle are separate, and deathwing itself will have some benefit. perhaps limited to the specialist detachment obsec, but benefitting from the DW banner is enough to make it spicy.

[Master Sheol]

I don’t think there is any way bladeguard are getting inner circle. They already have strat support specifically as primaris. Therefore, deathwing and inner circle are separate, and deathwing itself will have some benefit. perhaps limited to the specialist detachment obsec, but benefitting from the DW banner is enough to make it spicy.

Yes they have access to transhuman stratagem cause they are primaris but if they get built-in Inner Circle rule they will free that stratagem for other primaris units or in a mono DW army they will free CPs that you will not have to spend on that stratagem

;)

Edited November 26, 2020 by Master Sheol