What improvements do you feel are warranted?

[Captain Idaho]

Okay I didn't want to be too negative. The new Necrons Codex is great fun for the most part and I'm happy to play them. However, I can't help but feel somewhat deflated at times, particularly when I see Dark Eldar (Drukhari to some I guess) are getting rules to build themed lists, which Marines can do through the roof with their massive selection of choices anyway.

 

There are rules flaws and stuff just missing from the book, in my view. It feels like much of the rules were rushed out with little thought or play testing. At times the book feels like it lacks character or real thought to the theme.

 

Here are a list of things I feel Necrons need, in no particular order:

 

• Reanimation Protocols that work for the whole army, not just 1 wound models. It's been discussed to death already and most agree the current rules are little more than time wasting for most units but great for 1 wound models

 

• Command Protocols is just too complex and again, time and book keeping intensive. It also does little for the army overall, due to its complexity and the heavy limitations on the rule. Compared to Marines who get Doctrines, enhanced Doctrines, ways to set units into Doctrines, Shock Assault and Bolter Drill and you can see Necrons really have been poorly dealt this hand.

 

It needs a complete overhaul. Maybe even drop it entirely, compensated by enhanced Reanimation Protocols rules.

 

• Relics... so specific that it's tough to build unique characters. Half of them are for 1 particular Dynasty so are unusable for everyone else. We need more Relics that perhaps do weird and wonderful things. Technological marvels would make sense.

 

• Odd limitations other factions don't have need to be addressed. Things spring to mind like Apothecaries being able to raise anyone from the dead in any unit but Technomancers can only do it once to a non-Core unit in any game.

 

Or a bunch of Cryptek Arcana that mostly doesn't do anything. Some of it is nice but most of it is just a wasted double page spread.

 

This needs a complete overhaul too. Crypteks are cool but these things should be major upgrades with points to match to create some really powerful options, or just not bother.

 

• Some variance themes would be nice. Destroyers have great new models yet unlike Drukhari and Marines, taking a themed list is much more limiting.

 

• Why on earth does a Skorpekh Lord have a big weapon that is -1 to hit yet Marines get so many powerful weapons that the dangerous nature of a Skorpekh Lord is negligible? This seems to be a theme thoughout the book. Perhaps make something new and intimidating like a Skorpekh Lord model into a scary combat unit?

 

• How about Warlord Traits with some thought behind them? Most of them are uninspiring and do little. Look at the Iron Resolve of Marines - an extra wound and ignores damage on a 6 and compare it to Enduring Will - just -1 damage. I know which I'd prefer.

 

• Rules that play well together. You can stack Marine Warlord Traits with Relics etc and create really powerful combinations. Iron Resolve, with a model with a Storm Shields and Armour Indomitus is a potent combination, which doesn't even scratch the surface of things like Angel Artifice on Gravis and Bike Chapter Masters.

 

What can Necrons do that even closely compares?

 

***

 

It's not about being competitive (though that has a place in the discussion) but about the practical theme and play of the army. Does it feel like we can do as much with our characters or army as other armies? Does it feel like our army rules provide much character or just require extra work to do.

[Stupidity]

1) I find it very sad that the Dysnaties get one strat/relic/wt to set them apart.  Relics and warlord traits are very sparse as well. 

2) If dreadnoughts are core, annihilation barges should be too. 

3) Ya, the Crytek Arcana is super underwhelming. Even if half priced most people wouldn't take most of them. Nano time mines are nice but at 30 points? pass. 

4) Strategems are too specific in what can use them. Rapid fire weapons only? Only Doom Scythes, why not all the doom weapons? Fractal targeting bikes only, why not barges as well? 

[Tyriks]

Command Protocols are my biggest issue right now. The list of restrictions is comically long for minor bonuses. Doctrines have a bigger impact on the game with less restrictions. Even Canticles of the Omnissiah tend to be better and those aren't exactly overpowered.

 

My last game I had several situations where I had chose the best Protocol to come into play for the situation and yet got zero benefit from it, either because I had no Characters close enough or because the buffs are so situational they just didn't matter. I'm heavily considering now just mixing Dynasties and forgetting about Protocols.

[Ahzek451]

Pretty much already agree with all of the first post. I still think the biggest restriction and pain in the arse with command protocols is the limited range. Everyone else gets to enjoy board-wide doctrines. We have 2 restrictions. We need a noble on the table AND the unit needs to be near a character. Needing a noble is unique enough. Kill the noble, lose the protocols. Easy and fluffy. We could do without the range part. 

 

I find it odd that blackstone is wildly inconsistent. 

 

Spyders have gloom prisms. Same rule as the silent king and his dias is covered in large slabs of it. Why is it the same rule and effectiveness?

Szeres' little donut chunk is alright. 

Monolith has 4 of the largest chunks of blackstone and it does nothing. 

 

This is more my take and opinion and I realize it may not jam with GW's vision:

Side beef. We have so many non-core and dynastic agent units commingled and it feels all over the map and at times hard to keep track of. I think praetorian units taken in an army led by the silent king and within his own dynasty should stop being dynastic agents. And in that same vein, the king should stop being a dynastic agent if taken within his own dynasty. Sell more kings so every necron player can use him. I see the point of giving him the keyword, it's so he can be used with other dynasties. But he should fully sync with his own boys. 

 

It's not the end of the world, but it is recognizably messy. Core, character, dynstic agent, c'tan. Many combinations and restrictions with these keywords and other special rules. I imagine a lot of games are happening where certain units are getting buffs they shouldn't because a lot of opponents that don't read the necron codex won't know the difference. 

 

Good intentions for making things new, fun, flavorful, and unique. Bad execution and smells of being rushed. 

Edited November 21, 2020 by Ahzek451

[Kaldoth]

For command protocalls, if they'd just get rid of the range requirement that would be enough to fix it. The fact marines have their doctrines army wide and admech get their canticles army wide at all times... It's just plain unfair. I'm cool with needing a noble on the table for fluff reasons. It's a flavorful touch.

 

For reanimation protocols, they are a mile better than last edition but they suck on multi wound models. Without reworking the rule, I see two fixes:

 

1. Fix the reanimator. Give it a 4+ invul like the Doomstalker, increase the range on the beam to 12 inches. Also remove the core restriction on technomancers.

 

2. Give us a stratagem that allows us to double the dice in the reanimation pool.

 

Doing on of those two things would make RP solid this edition without having to rework the rule from the ground up.

 

Third, the monolith... I'm not happy about it being a lord of war, but if it has to be then fine. But for the love of the triarch give it a native invul or quantum shielding and something to reflect that it's covered in blackstone. This unit has all the capability in the world to be good if it just had more native survivability.

[VoceNoctum]

As someone mentioned in another thread, most of the Necron book is nice enough until you compare it to the Space Marines. Command Protocols aren't too important, but when you compare all the restrictions to Doctrines, it's just oddly restrictive.

 

The Res Arcane to let you bring back a Canoptek/ Destroyer/ whatever once per game, vs Chief Apothecary.

 

Even comparing the Lieutenant ("bring 2 in one spot") vs the Cryptek ("bring 2 in one spot, as long as you have a Noble, because Szeras certainly isn't going to get more crypteks"), it's just oddly more restrictive. Not including the heirarchy, which is fine in isolation, but it's just another Necron restriction.

 

Hell, why aren't the Skorpekh Lords also nobles? Or Szeras or Orikan?

2 infantry units, various Core restrictions, just lots of arbitrary restrictions like they were afraid Necrons might get too powerful at every turn, while just tossing all sorts of stuff at Space Marines, then even more in Deathwatch/ Blood Angels/ Space Wolves...

 

I guess we'll see how Drukhari get it, to see whether it's Necron specific or just every non SM.

[Perry]

Remove the range on the Command protocols, as long as there is a Noble on the table you can make use of them.

 

Quantum Shielding on the Monolith, you pay enough points for it.

 

Do something to the Reanimator, cheaper price or some survivability.

 

Make the Warden an Elites choice, he might get some use if he's out of the congested HQ slot.

[Ahzek451]

Seeing a lot of "remove command protocols range". Haha.

[Tyriks]

I also would either remove the requirement that the Warlord has to be Noble, or give the keyword to all Destroyer Lords.  I guess I get what they were going for by not giving it to them, but they are technically still Lords.

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah I agree with that. That could go with the theme of a Destroyer list, of course.

[Mr4Minutes]

I’d actually be fine if they keep the noble requirement and range requirement if I could actually pick which protocol is in effect at the star of the turn. As is, I just don’t think it’s as effective as taking 2 dynasties that you know exactly what they’ll do at any point in the game.

 

Unfortunately, I don’t see GW making any adjustments until 10th Ed for us. On the bright side, at least this codex functions better then the last.

[dreadmad]

As someone mentioned in another thread, most of the Necron book is nice enough until you compare it to the Space Marines. Command Protocols aren't too important, but when you compare all the restrictions to Doctrines, it's just oddly restrictive.

 

I think the "problem" is that Necrons have gotten a lot of new players with the Indomitus set release, and a lot of those are Marine players who are maybe first time Xenos players. The last 2 Marine books are just head and shoulders above everything else (in terms of internal strength and options), and even the strong Xenos factions (e.g. Eldar through most of 8th) don't have the level of consistent strength or high skill floor Marines do.

 

I say "Problem", because the more Xenos players there are, the more attention they are likely to get from GW (in terms of frequency of releases) - which is great for all of us!

 

Having played Necrons for about a year now I am absolutely thrilled with the book we have! It feels like the internal power balance is pretty good, there's not a whole lot of options that are flat out bad (sorry Reanimator) and the book seems to be in a solid place - Mid to maybe high-Mid tier (although it's hard to tell with limited competitive play.) From a unit balance standpoint I feel like most issues can be sorted with CA point tweaks (Destroyers looking at you), but I wouldn't be surprised to see some minor increases too if EC/RE shows up big over the next year.

 

Yes, obviously I'd like some minor tweaks - but there's not a huge amount of point wish-listing things that won't come for ~3 years. What seems likely is some Psychic Awakening style content - more Stratagems, Warlord Traits and Relics - with maybe whatever the new hotness is at the time. WL traits and Relics are probably the areas I feel we could use the most improvement, and some strats to interact with Protocols would paper over the books cracks.

 

TL;DR don't compare it to Marines, compare it to Xenos and see a strong book.

[VoceNoctum]

 

As someone mentioned in another thread, most of the Necron book is nice enough until you compare it to the Space Marines. Command Protocols aren't too important, but when you compare all the restrictions to Doctrines, it's just oddly restrictive.

 

TL;DR don't compare it to Marines, compare it to Xenos and see a strong book.

 

Sure, but it's not in a vacuum, you're on the table against marines. Heck, I got Indomitus and have been filling out a SM army at the same time as a Necron army.  I like Crypteks, so I want to take some, but the arbitrary nature of the restrictions can be irksome. By comparison, I like an Apothecary, and it's not just easy to include him, he's actually a bit OP! Most of the Cryptek Arkana are decent, but not something mandatory, but the Chief stuff for most of the SM higher ups are just excellent choices.

I understand the lack of selection with the Necrons, but then seeing the stuff added for SM's in similar niches sort of makes it seem like it's pretty arbitrary.

I guess with Drukhari we'll see if it's all Xenos or just Necrons.

 

And hell, it's not like it's a big deal, but not something that should be ignored. The Hexmark is cool enough, I'll keep using him no matter how niche he is. :)

Edited November 22, 2020 by VoceNoctum

[dreadmad]

 

Sure, but it's not in a vacuum, you're on the table against marines. 

 

I've won 75% of my games against Marines so far, and as far as I can tell Necrons play well into Marines.  Marines are definitely not in the top 3 armies I want to avoid (Harlies, Slaanesh Daemons, Custodes) - which is fortunate, since they're going to be probably 60% of the playerbase.

 

If the standard of comparison is "Not as much/as good as marines" then these threads will be here after every codex. 

[Captain Idaho]

It's definitely not about competitive play( think I said that in the OP?) rather it's about having thematic rules and playstyle, perhaps some customisation and clean rules with it. Can we honestly look at Command Protocols and not just yawn with the book keeping involved? Or sigh with the resignation as to the limitations involved (oh I can't have a Destroyer themed list led by anything bar a Noble if I want to use these complex and situational army benefits).

 

The army can be mid tier forever as far as I believe many are concerned, but reanimating Necrons would be nice outside Troops, or Warlords that are unique and characterful.

 

Comparing Marines flavour and now Drukhari and we don't even get Destroyers themed lists despite getting 3 new units (if you include a Character in that?) and a 4th new model.

 

And we have literal androids with no limits on their body upgrades. Why can't we customise things? Though multipart kits are no longer made in preference to monopose nowadays so I guess that answers that.

[Get Thokt]

Command protocols being restricted to character auras is my biggest gripe. Also our lack of core and mediocre Warlord Traits.

 

I mean, have you seen what some of the new codexes are getting? A strat now to give a character two Warlord Traits or two Relics?? Why didn't we get this?

 

Is this some sort of power creep although GW told everyone there wouldn't be one!??

[Tyriks]

Our Warlord Traits and Relics are seriously disheartening. We lost some really good ones.

[VoceNoctum]

And we have literal androids with no limits on their body upgrades. Why can't we customise things? Though multipart kits are no longer made in preference to monopose nowadays so I guess that answers that.

Yeah, especially given that Destroyers HAVE customized themselves towards their goal of stabbing or shooting even better, but all in the same way. Skorpekh's with tentacles, hammers, spinning claws, could be some nice options. Szeras has completely rebuilt himself, but the Arcana are a bit disappointing. Even the ones I'd take still don't have the flavor of the Chief stuff.

It's not so much about competitiveness, but ignoring when the SM get something in the niche that the Necron one is just more restrictive is disappointing at times. I certainly don't care about trying to force SM's to have a heirarchy, for instance, but even if it cost a CP, it'd be nice to be able to promote a Character to a Noble, similar to making a Phaeron.

 

I think Command Protocols is easy enough with the cards, or similar, but the Noble requirement + 9" range is not great. Similarily I'd prefer that some of the other buffs are either auras or assigned, but not something that you need to assign and then also stay in range of, like the Reanimator buff.

 

I do think I like the Necron custom dynasty stuff better than SM's  custom chapters though. Not just the ObSec & 6" move ones, but there's some interesting stuff there. Maybe I just want a bunch of rad wreathed skorpekhs giving out free hugs.

 

I do wonder when the Psychomancer and Chronomancer are coming out though.

[Ahzek451]

Yeah no argument on power. This has been a forever trope, you see some extreme cases in places like facebook. A complaint is made, and often a response is that the codex is fine and powerful enough. It's usually never about power. More about the clunkiness and some design choices that are questionable. We have a strong enough codex. And can stand on it's own competitively with certain builds. It's the jankiness that has come with it people don't like. I don't think most people want an overpowered resurrection system. I certainly don't. I fully understand that an army that has a high probability to ignore damage or undo the damage that was done to it has the potential to aggravate and upset an opponent depending on frequency. But at the same time, the player that owns the army also like to feel like the reanimation theme plays a good roll across the board. There is no doubt that this is difficult as hell to balance. I don't envy the rules team in this regard. However, I certainly feel that GW didn't spend enough time with this on this version. 

 

It's power is fine. The fun level...not as much as it could have been. 

 

Command protocols seem pretty unanimous. Unfortunately a lot of rules are tied to it. Some relics amplify or boost it and then the convergence of dominion is also tied to it. I doubt GW will make any changes until the next codex unfortunately. Perhaps if nothing else was tied to it the rule would have an easier chance getting changed. 

 

To go along with the clunkiness, certain units are not ok with receiving commands from a noble MWBD(core), but somehow ok with receiving command protocols? 

Edited November 23, 2020 by Ahzek451

[Bonzi]

I don't disagree that there are a lot of questionable limitations in the new Necron book, but a thread about what can be done doesn't seem like a constructive use of time. We just got a new book, there's nothing on the horizon for us that can fix structural problems until our next dex drops (years away). The limitations aren't typos or unintended rule conflicts so they are not going to get fixed by the next CA. Also, few tourneys are getting played so I expect CA point changes will be slow to come and hesitant in nature. The only thing we can hope for is some point reductions and that they don't actually nerf our most competitive homebrew dynasty choices.

 

On a funny note...I would say our book feels almost overdone rather than rushed. At every corner you see where rules or limitations were put in to prevent a rule from being applied to far. In other places it feels like maybe some rules ended up on the cutting room floor. Almost as if the dex had a play tested version with fewer restrictions or stronger rules that proved really strong and they put in limitations in to throttle it back

Edited November 23, 2020 by Bonzi

[MasterDeath]

Never compare your codex to the Marine one. You will always be disappointed.

[VoceNoctum]

I don't disagree that there are a lot of questionable limitations in the new Necron book, but a thread about what can be done doesn't seem like a constructive use of time. We just got a new book, there's nothing on the horizon for us that can fix structural problems until our next dex drops (years away).

There's always campaign books like the Psychic Awakening and/ or new units later on possibly. Certainly nothing soon, obviously, and I'm sure there's plenty of Xenos wishing they'd gotten anything yet, or even an announcement or rumor that they might get something at some point... :)

 

But I mean, it's the internet, so a wish list doesn't hurt anything. It's not like I'm going to print out this thread, take it to a tournament and demand I get to resurrect Destroyers. My main "demand" is to release the Flayed Ones & Crypteks, even if I lose it'll be fun for a mob of flayed ones clambering over a bunch of armored grunts.

[VoceNoctum]

Never compare your codex to the Marine one. You will always be disappointed.

Even if your Codex IS the marine one, don't compare it to the other marine one(s), you'll always be disappointed. :)

[Seahawk]

- Make more units Core, or have fewer abilities restricted to Core. It's like we can play 3 armies in one (core, canoptek, destroyer) but none together because they lose a lot of functionality.

 

- Change RP to allow multiwound models to reanimate with any amount of successes, bringing back that many wounds. I've had sooo many feel bads about getting 3 when I needed 4, or even 1 when I need 2. It would give living metal a purpose.

 

- Change Protocols to be army wide as long as a noble is alive on the table. Also, make it a choice/randomize business just like Canticles. Too much bookkeeping, and you're telling me vox casters work better than the most technologically advanced race in the galaxy? K.

 

- Change the Reanimator to something functional.

 

- Change the Resurrection orb to be usable every turn, or reduce the as-is cost to 5pts. Far too expensive for a one-use and mediocre item.

 

- Turn some relics that were basic wargear options back into basic wargear options (sempiternal weave, veil, etc), and find us a new selection of interesting cosmic confabulators. Hell, Blood Angels can double up relic/special gear on captains now, and our overlords are extremely limited in their gear choices.

 

In my games these are what comes up most often as jarringly out of place. For a supposed hyper advanced species, their rules are super clunky and nonintuitive.

[Stupidity]

I was very surprised that Necrons, as a short ranged shooting force didn't get a bespoke overwatch strat. 

Something like 2cp, hit on a 4+ once per game.