The Plight of the Assault Transport Flyer

[TheTrans]

Ok gang,

 

Has probably come up a few times no doubt, but are the AoD flyer rules a bit naff and still a hold over to the days of early 6th when flyers where godly?

Currently building an air-cav list with some assault elements. 

Will be putting some Thunder Warriors (Nullificators) in a Drop Ship (Storm Eagle). So the big issue here obviously is you can't assault from reserve and flyers can only come in turn 2 onwards(!) meaning any assault units coming in via flyer are severely hampered. 

 

Some may say oh its because flyers are can move quickly, or are generally tough, or what not, but then we look at the Dread Claw and the Kharbdis... 

Both are flyers, that can come in turn 1, accurately, are assault transports and allow the units within to assault turn 2 onwards, and given their ability to deploy quite 'deep' into the enemy deployment, there is a good chance their units will be assaulting before the guys in the spartan trundling across the ground get to.

 

Now the, well not even 'gamey' choice, but the logical choice is take one of the assault-pods, even though its not as thematic for the CC elements as it gets them working earlier.

Is there anyway to bring airborne transports, of fliers in general, back into the realm of being able to use them for longer than at most 5 game turns.

I've seen some suggestions that if a Flyer can hover, it can, if it chooses, deploy with the rest of the army in hover mode. If it can't hover, well then, tough luck Lightnings :P, standards rules apply..

Anyone have any thoughts etc on the above ramblings?

[Brofist]

Pretty sure you can't choose to deploy fliers in hover. They must deploy into reserves.

 

Otherwise your analysis is pretty sound. Fliers are late game delivery systems which has advantages and disadvantages. The biggest thing to consider is this: assault claws are threats turn 1-2 while fliers are threats from turns 3-4. Splitting your list into both groups makes it a more balanced experience for both players while doubling down exaggerates strengths and weaknesses. All pods up front means you're hitting what/where you want early game, but by late game you're not very reactive, your guys are stuck in, and you may be loose just through attrition. All fliers all the time means you're giving up your first ~2 turns for a dominant late game, but because you must be decisive you're playing against the clock to do enough to make a difference by the time the game ends.

 

I'd say fliers are less popular because they cost more money, cost more points, and some are tough kits to work on. There also isn't an easy way to manipulate your reserves in order to get them onto the table, so most people don't fully commit.

 

This all said, consider how many 100% air lists exist in your meta. I would wager that there are almost none, so taking all fliers will at the very least upset your meta. It won't be a list people are expecting and if you know how it plays (esp on certain missions) you can really upset people.

Edited November 24, 2020 by Brofist

[SkimaskMohawk]

To address another point; flyers were only godly due to their shooting, lack of widespread AA, and no one using the vehicle weapon arc rules fully with them. Transports that were flyers were godlike in 5th with things like the vendetta scout into rear/side armour and the storm raven. But ever since flyers have been a thing, they've always had to start in reserve with very, very few ways of cheating them out.

 

Now as brofist said, air cav lists are rarely seen because the storm eagle costs a pile and is one of the most frustrating kits to make, multiple that by 3 or so. The actual lists tend to be pretty solid though, usually favouring a melee heavy legion (like worldeaters or wolves) to actually take advantage of the assault transport and it's capacity.

 

The comparison between dreadclaws and storm eagles isn't the most simple; the dreadclaw is an incredible unit and possibly still too cheap, but also creates counter synergy and is very slot inefficient. The storm eagle is one of those units that are underwhelming with just a random one in a list, but when you saturate a list they all do their jobs better; the core of your list is immune to damage turn 1 (and mostly turn 2 realistically, a lascannon explodes one 0.007 of the time on average, while jinking, the dreaded kheres mortis does an average of .84 per volley with helical up for skyline) and can obtain board control and then dump a horde of melee guys into vulnerable parts.

 

Dreadclaw do alpha strike better, storm eagles do mass assault better. A good use of the flyers gives your opponent less opportunity to kill your models and have less turns to deal with your objective scoring stuff; coming in turn 2 can be a strong advantage.

[shang]

If you really wanted a flyer to come on reliably then 2 ways come to mind for me.

You could play raven guard and put alverx maun in the flyer, so it appears at turn 2. 

Or you could take a land raider proteus with an "Explorator Augury Web". 

 

Yes a flyer wont turn up on turn one like a drop pod, but you get more firepower.

[Noserenda]

From memory the landing pad fortification lets you deploy fliers on it could be a solution? 

Probably best to chat to your group about houseruling it though?

[Brofist]

Many of the flier focused RoW restrict your ability to take fortifications or tanks.

 

More pragmatically, say you do take one or deploy a proteus with an augry web- is that your one unit on the table turn 1? If so, you can probably kiss it goodbye! If its not the only unit on the table turn 1- then your list isn't really an air cav list is it?

[SkimaskMohawk]

You can have things like speeders on the ground turn 1 with angels wrath. Makes sense as a rapid scouting force for the cav.

 

But ya, hard to jam a Damocles or proteus into lists while also having thematic stuff on the ground that can get out of Los easy

[Brofist]

Comedy option: Damocles command rhino in a thunderhawk transporter

[TheTrans]

Pretty sure you can't choose to deploy fliers in hover. They must deploy into reserves.

 

Otherwise your analysis is pretty sound. Fliers are late game delivery systems which has advantages and disadvantages. The biggest thing to consider is this: assault claws are threats turn 1-2 while fliers are threats from turns 3-4. Splitting your list into both groups makes it a more balanced experience for both players while doubling down exaggerates strengths and weaknesses. All pods up front means you're hitting what/where you want early game, but by late game you're not very reactive, your guys are stuck in, and you may be loose just through attrition. All fliers all the time means you're giving up your first ~2 turns for a dominant late game, but because you must be decisive you're playing against the clock to do enough to make a difference by the time the game ends.

 

I'd say fliers are less popular because they cost more money, cost more points, and some are tough kits to work on. There also isn't an easy way to manipulate your reserves in order to get them onto the table, so most people don't fully commit.

 

This all said, consider how many 100% air lists exist in your meta. I would wager that there are almost none, so taking all fliers will at the very least upset your meta. It won't be a list people are expecting and if you know how it plays (esp on certain missions) you can really upset people.

Oh yeah, I know they can't and must be in reserve I was saying it should be an option! 

 

Early game alpha strike is still how to win games. Those pods in on turn 1-2 gets all your force there quickly to whittle down the enemy. Fliers coming in and dumping their payloads quite late cause all sorts of issues as you are brining half your force to bear against possibly the entire enemy force.

 

I'm honestly not trying to bust the meta open or anything, breaking heresy isn't overly hard haha. Its just a lot of consessions need to be made to make an air cav list which is a shame! 

 

To address another point; flyers were only godly due to their shooting, lack of widespread AA, and no one using the vehicle weapon arc rules fully with them. Transports that were flyers were godlike in 5th with things like the vendetta scout into rear/side armour and the storm raven. But ever since flyers have been a thing, they've always had to start in reserve with very, very few ways of cheating them out.

 

Now as brofist said, air cav lists are rarely seen because the storm eagle costs a pile and is one of the most frustrating kits to make, multiple that by 3 or so. The actual lists tend to be pretty solid though, usually favouring a melee heavy legion (like worldeaters or wolves) to actually take advantage of the assault transport and it's capacity.

 

The comparison between dreadclaws and storm eagles isn't the most simple; the dreadclaw is an incredible unit and possibly still too cheap, but also creates counter synergy and is very slot inefficient. The storm eagle is one of those units that are underwhelming with just a random one in a list, but when you saturate a list they all do their jobs better; the core of your list is immune to damage turn 1 (and mostly turn 2 realistically, a lascannon explodes one 0.007 of the time on average, while jinking, the dreaded kheres mortis does an average of .84 per volley with helical up for skyline) and can obtain board control and then dump a horde of melee guys into vulnerable parts.

 

Dreadclaw do alpha strike better, storm eagles do mass assault better. A good use of the flyers gives your opponent less opportunity to kill your models and have less turns to deal with your objective scoring stuff; coming in turn 2 can be a strong advantage.

Yeah the issue is ofcourse with a full flyer list is if you only ahve a few units on the table there is a good chance the game is done bottom of turn 1. There is some pretty large inherent negatives to fliers that I don't think gel properly with the game anymore. Espcially when you hit 3k and there are knights thumping around... I feel fliers and their percieved power are no where near what they used to be.

 

I think you've hit some nail on the head though, there is like a cell-deep fear of fliers from the Vendetta spam and Necron flying circus! 

 

If you really wanted a flyer to come on reliably then 2 ways come to mind for me.

You could play raven guard and put alverx maun in the flyer, so it appears at turn 2. 

Or you could take a land raider proteus with an "Explorator Augury Web". 

 

Yes a flyer wont turn up on turn one like a drop pod, but you get more firepower.

Neither of which work as not running raven guard and a big ole heavy tank doesn't gel too well with air cav haha. 

 

From memory the landing pad fortification lets you deploy fliers on it could be a solution? 

 

Probably best to chat to your group about houseruling it though?

Yeah looked into that after your suggestion mate. The Australia community is pretty chill and most of the peeps didn't seem to care about using it as long as one isn't putting a warhound titan on it for the 4++ :P.

 

Many of the flier focused RoW restrict your ability to take fortifications or tanks.

 

More pragmatically, say you do take one or deploy a proteus with an augry web- is that your one unit on the table turn 1? If so, you can probably kiss it goodbye! If its not the only unit on the table turn 1- then your list isn't really an air cav list is it?

Ah not using any RoWs as using a black shield army of dark compliance so no real benefits or what not.

 

Yeah for my 2k list I've got a Damocles(modelled as a light recon vehicle) with a (chimerae)recon squad and a auxilia rapier (done up as a recon support squad). So good chance it will get blown off, with then 3 arvus, 1 storm eagle and one thunderbolt hopefully appearing soonish.. But there is no other way to do it really given the no flyers on game turn 1... 

 

You can have things like speeders on the ground turn 1 with angels wrath. Makes sense as a rapid scouting force for the cav.

 

But ya, hard to jam a Damocles or proteus into lists while also having thematic stuff on the ground that can get out of Los easy

Yeah or if you're playing against a drop pod force, you're absolutely knackered which is a shame!

 

Comedy option: Damocles command rhino in a thunderhawk transporter

I imagine the damocles needs to be on the field to get the benefits haha

 

So seems all you guys can see the issue, while I don't think an air-cav force is bent, there is no way to properly play it either which is a damn shame.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Getting tabled turn 1 in 3000 points even with say 2000 in reserve sounds like the tables you play on are worthless and the cause of much bigger problems.

 

And air cav isn't about shooting with steagles...It's about delivering their units overwhelmingly into melee. The shooting flyers are lightnings and fire raptors and xiphons, the fire raptor being one of the most efficient units in the game for what you get for its points.

 

 

And not to dunk on what's obviously a really cool, thematic list, but you're basically not using anything the traditional good air cav lists do. Not playing a melee heavy legion and using the imo worst faction of blackshields, not using angels wrath to make steagles dedicated, no fire raptors, no javelins, no lightnings. It's like you're missing every part of what makes air cav strong, but then say the archetype is unplayable.

[TheTrans]

Getting tabled turn 1 in 3000 points even with say 2000 in reserve sounds like the tables you play on are worthless and the cause of much bigger problems.

 

And air cav isn't about shooting with steagles...It's about delivering their units overwhelmingly into melee. The shooting flyers are lightnings and fire raptors and xiphons, the fire raptor being one of the most efficient units in the game for what you get for its points.

 

 

And not to dunk on what's obviously a really cool, thematic list, but you're basically not using anything the traditional good air cav lists do. Not playing a melee heavy legion and using the imo worst faction of blackshields, not using angels wrath to make steagles dedicated, no fire raptors, no javelins, no lightnings. It's like you're missing every part of what makes air cav strong, but then say the archetype is unplayable.

So pretty much you're saying if you're not using an Astartes RoW, tough luck? 

 

Honestly to me, speeders don't really click into air-cav by pure, thorough definition. Air-Cav is flyer based transports and flyers. My issue stems from you actually can't have a full flyer based army due to the limitations of the game..well you can...but you auto lose turn 1... 

 

To make the Air assets come in reliably, you again need to bring in non thematic stuff to either reroll or +1/-1 your reserve roll and the fact you need boots on the ground. 

 

So in allhonesty why you can run an air-cav flavoured list, by adding speeders and what not in, its actually impossible (without turn 1 loss) to run a flyer only/flyer carried list. Which is what I'm saying the issue is.

 

You can run a good majority of units in drop pods.

 

You can run a full mounted jetbike force that can do work.

 

Can run a full armoured/mechanised list no worries. 

 

You can not run a full, proper air-cav force in the way the above examples are doable, RoW or not. 

 

 

[Mogsam]

Sacrificial offering can do air cav quite well, but it's not a pure air cav army.

 

You can use the aegis line radar thing to get the reserves in, you are completely outflanking so that helps alot and you're reliably coming in turn 2. You just spend the first turn with all your levies hiding behind the wall with a 2++ cover save.

 

Take a couple of storm eagles/rams, load them with your troops choices, take recon marines to get the eagles as dedicated transports etc. The only issue is you can't have anvilus due to no deep striking.

 

It probably still isn't great, but it's a viable option.

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

 

Getting tabled turn 1 in 3000 points even with say 2000 in reserve sounds like the tables you play on are worthless and the cause of much bigger problems.

 

And air cav isn't about shooting with steagles...It's about delivering their units overwhelmingly into melee. The shooting flyers are lightnings and fire raptors and xiphons, the fire raptor being one of the most efficient units in the game for what you get for its points.

 

 

And not to dunk on what's obviously a really cool, thematic list, but you're basically not using anything the traditional good air cav lists do. Not playing a melee heavy legion and using the imo worst faction of blackshields, not using angels wrath to make steagles dedicated, no fire raptors, no javelins, no lightnings. It's like you're missing every part of what makes air cav strong, but then say the archetype is unplayable.

So pretty much you're saying if you're not using an Astartes RoW, tough luck?

 

Honestly to me, speeders don't really click into air-cav by pure, thorough definition. Air-Cav is flyer based transports and flyers. My issue stems from you actually can't have a full flyer based army due to the limitations of the game..well you can...but you auto lose turn 1...

 

To make the Air assets come in reliably, you again need to bring in non thematic stuff to either reroll or +1/-1 your reserve roll and the fact you need boots on the ground.

 

So in allhonesty why you can run an air-cav flavoured list, by adding speeders and what not in, its actually impossible (without turn 1 loss) to run a flyer only/flyer carried list. Which is what I'm saying the issue is.

 

You can run a good majority of units in drop pods.

 

You can run a full mounted jetbike force that can do work.

 

Can run a full armoured/mechanised list no worries.

 

You can not run a full, proper air-cav force in the way the above examples are doable, RoW or not.

 

Well sure, the list depends on the definition of air cav. Your list had ground elements so I was going off the "recon force + cav" traditional one.

 

But even with an "all flyer, all transported by flyers" stipulation it's still possible to make a very strong list that doesnt auto-lose. You have to take angels wrath because getting dedicated steagles is essential. You take 3 steagles, 3 fire raptors and 3 dreadclaws for about 1800 points; 2 dreadclaws come in turn 1, you flat out them to get out of range or los and jink with them and then move out in force when a good chunk of your stuff comes in. I don't want to hear anything about them being real flyers or not. Theyre flyers; theyre being used in their role as a flyer and a transport.

 

You can run this style list at 2000 by dropping raptors and a steagle to fit in the necessary compulsory units and obviously scales up very well. But you need Angels wrath to do it properly.

[Brofist]

Ontop of all that, if your running blackshields, you do have access to an army wide ability that lets you deepstrike half your infantry....

[Gorgoff]

If you really wanted a flyer to come on reliably then 2 ways come to mind for me.

You could play raven guard and put alverx maun in the flyer, so it appears at turn 2.

Or you could take a land raider proteus with an "Explorator Augury Web".

 

Yes a flyer wont turn up on turn one like a drop pod, but you get more firepower.

Or you take Perturabo and have a turn one steagle. 8)

[Eternal Despair]

Or running Storm Eagles in an Emperors Children Maru Skara will grantee them to come in from reserves turn 2 if selected as part of the hidden blade, in fact this thread gave me the inspiration for trying to make an air cav list that I like work without using any of the Mournival Events extra units/ROWs or experimental errata's 

[Nomadic Thunder]

Would they be able to outflank turn one with the new dark angel rite of war too or have I completely mixed things up?

 

Edit: referring to storm eagles.

 

Afterthought: this doesn’t actually help OP with their particular problem due to being black shields.

Edited November 28, 2020 by Nomadic Thunder