Firstborn vets

[Mcha0s92]

Hi i am looking for advices because i want to build a list of only firstborn marines because i like the vets model so much.

So in a world without primaris how would you build a vet squad? How many would you play? Would you make them a proteus kill team or play them with a blackshield? I was thinking of 2 pods to get to midfield asap and another squad in a corvus as a rapid response but i have no idea of how to equip them except of sprinkling in some shield in the squad

[xenomortis]

It's really easy to get carried away with the wealth of options available to a squad of vets. You need to resist the urge, and build a squad with a plan in mind. If not you will have an expensive squad that is jack of all trades, master of none.

 

If you want a squad to be a solid all rounder have a look at combi weapons. Particularly combi flamers for anti infantry work or combi meltas/plasmas for heavier work. In either squad 1 or 2 frag cannons or infernus heavy bolters could/should be considered. A storm shield or 2 to tank wounds is usually worth while also. 

 

In 8th edition the optimal build was vets equipped with storm bolter and storm shield. This is still a solid build but is no longer the must take it was. Maths wise, a storm bolter is still slightly ahead of a regular bolter or combi with SIA. The problem with this build is accessing the bits to physically build the models. 

 

In terms of a black shield, they're looking hot at minute with dual lightning claws.

[Mcha0s92]

It's really easy to get carried away with the wealth of options available to a squad of vets. You need to resist the urge, and build a squad with a plan in mind. If not you will have an expensive squad that is jack of all trades, master of none.

 

If you want a squad to be a solid all rounder have a look at combi weapons. Particularly combi flamers for anti infantry work or combi meltas/plasmas for heavier work. In either squad 1 or 2 frag cannons or infernus heavy bolters could/should be considered. A storm shield or 2 to tank wounds is usually worth while also.

 

In 8th edition the optimal build was vets equipped with storm bolter and storm shield. This is still a solid build but is no longer the must take it was. Maths wise, a storm bolter is still slightly ahead of a regular bolter or combi with SIA. The problem with this build is accessing the bits to physically build the models.

 

In terms of a black shield, they're looking hot at minute with dual lightning claws.

Nice suggestions thank you! i think that combiflamers at 5 points are a good antihorde but the other combi seems expensive to me at 10 pts each, do you think the frag is worth it? It seems to me an underpowered plasma gun that costs more( i know you have the blast type but still i dont think i would use it) and the infernus is nice but 3 heavy bolter shot hitting on 4 at 15 pts is in the expensive range for me.

Do you use vets in your lists? If yes can you tell me how and your plan with them? Thank you

[xenomortis]

The S7 profile of the frag cannon is still decent in my opinion. The horde clearing frag round took a big blow though unfortunately. The IHB is a decent weapon for the points, especially now the HB profile is D2 and the HF is 12" range.

 

Yes I intend to field vets once I can get a game (lockdown again in the UK). A tooled up kill team in a corvus probably consisting of 5 x storm bolter / storm shield and 2 IHB's (maybe more if I have points).

 

Also thinking about giving my stalker team a go again. With SIA their weapons can be increased to D3 which isn't to be sniffed at, especially against other marines and eldar bikes etc. 

 

To be honest though, I think the bulk of my killteams will be primaris based. 

[Debauchery101]

Its really hard to give advice for DW. Just build stuff and play. Or make lists and proxy with your other marines.

 

You can pretty much make a list for any playstyle while also having almost all choices being troops

 

If you wanted to play a certain style at a certain size then its a bit easier to help out

Edited November 24, 2020 by Debauchery101

[Mcha0s92]

The S7 profile of the frag cannon is still decent in my opinion. The horde clearing frag round took a big blow though unfortunately. The IHB is a decent weapon for the points, especially now the HB profile is D2 and the HF is 12" range.

 

Yes I intend to field vets once I can get a game (lockdown again in the UK). A tooled up kill team in a corvus probably consisting of 5 x storm bolter / storm shield and 2 IHB's (maybe more if I have points).

 

Also thinking about giving my stalker team a go again. With SIA their weapons can be increased to D3 which isn't to be sniffed at, especially against other marines and eldar bikes etc.

 

To be honest though, I think the bulk of my killteams will be primaris based.

Yes i agree the primaris kill teams are stronger and more cost effective than regular vets, i'm trying to find a role for them still

[Mcha0s92]

Its really hard to give advice for DW. Just build stuff and play. Or make lists and proxy with your other marines.

 

You can pretty much make a list for any playstyle while also having almost all choices being troops

 

If you wanted to play a certain style at a certain size then its a bit easier to help out

I usually play at 2k points(can't play atm because of lockdown)and was thinking a pair of drop pods to gain midfield and a corvus as a backup plan with another kill team inside, i was experimenting with veteran bikers in kill team for the infantry keyword they gain, a vanguard vet squad with LC and SS, and a terminator squad with TH and SS, a slash watchcaptain, a librarian and chaplain for support, that's the probable plan and was tinkering with combis in the KT or the plain bolter or a melee approach.

[Squark]

 

The S7 profile of the frag cannon is still decent in my opinion. The horde clearing frag round took a big blow though unfortunately. The IHB is a decent weapon for the points, especially now the HB profile is D2 and the HF is 12" range.

 

Yes I intend to field vets once I can get a game (lockdown again in the UK). A tooled up kill team in a corvus probably consisting of 5 x storm bolter / storm shield and 2 IHB's (maybe more if I have points).

 

Also thinking about giving my stalker team a go again. With SIA their weapons can be increased to D3 which isn't to be sniffed at, especially against other marines and eldar bikes etc.

 

To be honest though, I think the bulk of my killteams will be primaris based.

Yes i agree the primaris kill teams are stronger and more cost effective than regular vets, i'm trying to find a role for them still

 

I'm going to strongly disagree with you here. Fortis and Spectrus Kill teams are significantly worse than Proteus teams because they have much worse bases. Veterans with DW Boltguns and Chainswords do everything Intercessors with bolt rifles do, but better, while Spectrus kill teams are mostly gimmicks due to Infiltrators' guns being junk 83% of the time.

 

Veteran Bikers outperform Outriders (at least, the first squad does) because they can take much better melee weapons, and if your biker unit isn't using Brotherhood of Veterans for a turn 1 20" Advance+Charge (And thus, you know, not shooting their guns anyway), then I don't know why you would take bikes. Likewise, Vanguard Veterans are much, much better than Assault Intercessors, yet cost the same.

 

Indomitor kill teams are a different story (Solid base unit, and the models you can add are fantastic), but Heavy Intercessors haven't been released yet.

[Debauchery101]

If you want to use drop pods id say pass on the Corvus and take 4 pods. Load them up with shooty stuff thats tailored for different targets. Drop as needed. I like 4 hvy bolters or 4 frag cannons.

 

Infernus from recent testing do worse than combi flamer vets with storm shields and still cost more.

 

You should have some Apothecaries with company vets in the pods for support

[Debauchery101]

Opening up first turn with tactical doctrine then dropping 8 frag cannons in pods is nice.

[Mcha0s92]

 

 

 

The S7 profile of the frag cannon is still decent in my opinion. The horde clearing frag round took a big blow though unfortunately. The IHB is a decent weapon for the points, especially now the HB profile is D2 and the HF is 12" range.

 

Yes I intend to field vets once I can get a game (lockdown again in the UK). A tooled up kill team in a corvus probably consisting of 5 x storm bolter / storm shield and 2 IHB's (maybe more if I have points).

 

Also thinking about giving my stalker team a go again. With SIA their weapons can be increased to D3 which isn't to be sniffed at, especially against other marines and eldar bikes etc.

 

To be honest though, I think the bulk of my killteams will be primaris based.

Yes i agree the primaris kill teams are stronger and more cost effective than regular vets, i'm trying to find a role for them still

I'm going to strongly disagree with you here. Fortis and Spectrus Kill teams are significantly worse than Proteus teams because they have much worse bases. Veterans with DW Boltguns and Chainswords do everything Intercessors with bolt rifles do, but better, while Spectrus kill teams are mostly gimmicks due to Infiltrators' guns being junk 83% of the time.

 

Veteran Bikers outperform Outriders (at least, the first squad does) because they can take much better melee weapons, and if your biker unit isn't using Brotherhood of Veterans for a turn 1 20" Advance+Charge (And thus, you know, not shooting their guns anyway), then I don't know why you would take bikes. Likewise, Vanguard Veterans are much, much better than Assault Intercessors, yet cost the same.

 

Indomitor kill teams are a different story (Solid base unit, and the models you can add are fantastic), but Heavy Intercessors haven't been released yet.

Yes intercessor are weaker than basic vets but they are quite strong at horde clearing and can open up KT with hellblasters and outriders, a fortis team of 5 intercessor and 5 outrider could combat squad in 2 good units when you need it or you could keep it 10 man and start removing casualties on the intercessor side of the KT and have a lot of T5 wounds( bonus point with a dominus aegis nearby for the sweet 5++ or the master apothecary 6+++ and revive).

Fortis KT with hellblaster are a deepstrike threat in my view but i think they are overshadowed by the super cost-efficient plasmaceptors dropping in.

Spectrus KT on the other hand are good at infiltrating and keep opponents from midfield early on and can get 5 eliminators in the team that now are a threat to not only minor characters and could be properly buffed to reroll wounds on characters, i think these are the values of the fortis and spectrus KTs, the indomitor is looking really strong either way you are gonna build it.

[Mcha0s92]

Opening up first turn with tactical doctrine then dropping 8 frag cannons in pods is nice.

Mmm i guess they are good but wouldnt be cheaper to equip them with plasmaguns and still fire 2 shots( i know at 12") at str 8 and with no inbuild minus to hit ?

Thank you both for your responses btw :)

[Debauchery101]

 

Opening up first turn with tactical doctrine then dropping 8 frag cannons in pods is nice.

Mmm i guess they are good but wouldnt be cheaper to equip them with plasmaguns and still fire 2 shots( i know at 12") at str 8 and with no inbuild minus to hit ?

Thank you both for your responses btw :)

what minus to hit? Frags are assault weapons.

2d3 str6 ap-1(-2) d1 Blast @ 12 in

2 str7 ap-2(-3) d2 @24 in

 

Also no suicide chance. Theyre definitely not as good as they used to be but 15 points is a good value for the versatility.

 

If I wanted plasma spam I'd use inceptors no need to pay for a drop pod. Jump infantry with 2 plasma guns with blast is the only plasma i take beyond a relic dreadnought

Edited November 25, 2020 by Debauchery101

[Mcha0s92]

 

 

Opening up first turn with tactical doctrine then dropping 8 frag cannons in pods is nice.

Mmm i guess they are good but wouldnt be cheaper to equip them with plasmaguns and still fire 2 shots( i know at 12") at str 8 and with no inbuild minus to hit ?

Thank you both for your responses btw :)

what minus to hit? Frags are assault weapons.

2d3 str6 ap-1(-2) d1 Blast @ 12 in

2 str7 ap-2(-3) d2 @24 in

 

Also no suicide chance. Theyre definitely not as good as they used to be but 15 points is a good value for the versatility.

 

If I wanted plasma spam I'd use inceptors no need to pay for a drop pod. Jump infantry with 2 plasma guns with blast is the only plasma i take beyond a relic dreadnought

I confused it with the IHB sorry but yes i would too prefer to get plasmaceptors for that role

[angrom]

I was thinking 2x5 vets in a droppod

With 5 combi flamers each and 3 storm shields each. Makes for a decently costed very sturdy units that pull 10 D6 str 4 ap1 and 20 SIA shots

[Mcha0s92]

I was thinking 2x5 vets in a droppod

With 5 combi flamers each and 3 storm shields each. Makes for a decently costed very sturdy units that pull 10 D6 str 4 ap1 and 20 SIA shots

I was thinking something like that too, i quite like the combiflamer for the points, the other combis are overshadowed by their primaris counterparts imho. Edited November 25, 2020 by Mcha0s92

[Claws and Effect]

I've been playing at friends houses who I know have been taking precautions. 

 

Firstborn veterans are really solid now. I echo the above sentiment that you really need to have a plan for what a given unit's job is going to be when you start building them. Combi-flamers for anti-infantry and combi-meltas for anti-tank is a good way to go. If you have points for it you can give them all storm shields if you like (I usually do). 

 

My headcanon is that the Primaris guys died very quickly due to lack of experience and being sent out in small groups. So any Primaris I have in my list are either the guys that got lucky and lived long enough to learn from their mistakes or guys who crossed the Rubicon after they were already serving in the Watch. 

 

Don't forget that we can take units from the basic Codex too, now. Let me tell you, a unit of 5 Company Veterans with storm shields escorting a Company Champion is a tough nut to crack. You can't even target the Champion with ranged attacks if he is within 3" of the Veterans. That means anyone who wants to kill him has to either do it in melee or get enough shots through 10 wounds with a 2+/4++ save before they can target him. I give my Company Champion the Thief of Secrets so he can ignore invuln saves. 

 

Also, according to everything I can find, it is totally legal to give a unit of Deathwatch Terminators all thunder hammers and storm shields and then give 3 of them Cyclone Missile Launchers. If you park an Apothecary with the WL trait that can give them ObSec you have a unit that is really difficult to shift and can't just be outnumbered on an objective. 

 

Centurions are available to us now as well. And we can teleport them. I did that to great effect against by friends Orks. They obliterated a 30 man Boyz unit in one shooting phase, murdered the Painboy that was with them, and tied up his Gorkanaut for 2 turns. And they did it all with no support. And that was with a 3 man unit. That's a lot of work for a ~200 point unit to put in when I expected them to just die. 

[Mcha0s92]

I've been playing at friends houses who I know have been taking precautions.

 

Firstborn veterans are really solid now. I echo the above sentiment that you really need to have a plan for what a given unit's job is going to be when you start building them. Combi-flamers for anti-infantry and combi-meltas for anti-tank is a good way to go. If you have points for it you can give them all storm shields if you like (I usually do).

 

My headcanon is that the Primaris guys died very quickly due to lack of experience and being sent out in small groups. So any Primaris I have in my list are either the guys that got lucky and lived long enough to learn from their mistakes or guys who crossed the Rubicon after they were already serving in the Watch.

 

Don't forget that we can take units from the basic Codex too, now. Let me tell you, a unit of 5 Company Veterans with storm shields escorting a Company Champion is a tough nut to crack. You can't even target the Champion with ranged attacks if he is within 3" of the Veterans. That means anyone who wants to kill him has to either do it in melee or get enough shots through 10 wounds with a 2+/4++ save before they can target him. I give my Company Champion the Thief of Secrets so he can ignore invuln saves.

 

Also, according to everything I can find, it is totally legal to give a unit of Deathwatch Terminators all thunder hammers and storm shields and then give 3 of them Cyclone Missile Launchers. If you park an Apothecary with the WL trait that can give them ObSec you have a unit that is really difficult to shift and can't just be outnumbered on an objective.

 

Centurions are available to us now as well. And we can teleport them. I did that to great effect against by friends Orks. They obliterated a 30 man Boyz unit in one shooting phase, murdered the Painboy that was with them, and tied up his Gorkanaut for 2 turns. And they did it all with no support. And that was with a 3 man unit. That's a lot of work for a ~200 point unit to put in when I expected them to just die.

Nice to hear they did well for you! How did you equip the centurions? I think that setup for terminator is good but expensive point wise.. i would prefer to let the champ have his master crafted blade and keep the 2 dmg but the company vets are good now that can tank till their death

[Claws and Effect]

 

I've been playing at friends houses who I know have been taking precautions.

 

Firstborn veterans are really solid now. I echo the above sentiment that you really need to have a plan for what a given unit's job is going to be when you start building them. Combi-flamers for anti-infantry and combi-meltas for anti-tank is a good way to go. If you have points for it you can give them all storm shields if you like (I usually do).

 

My headcanon is that the Primaris guys died very quickly due to lack of experience and being sent out in small groups. So any Primaris I have in my list are either the guys that got lucky and lived long enough to learn from their mistakes or guys who crossed the Rubicon after they were already serving in the Watch.

 

Don't forget that we can take units from the basic Codex too, now. Let me tell you, a unit of 5 Company Veterans with storm shields escorting a Company Champion is a tough nut to crack. You can't even target the Champion with ranged attacks if he is within 3" of the Veterans. That means anyone who wants to kill him has to either do it in melee or get enough shots through 10 wounds with a 2+/4++ save before they can target him. I give my Company Champion the Thief of Secrets so he can ignore invuln saves.

 

Also, according to everything I can find, it is totally legal to give a unit of Deathwatch Terminators all thunder hammers and storm shields and then give 3 of them Cyclone Missile Launchers. If you park an Apothecary with the WL trait that can give them ObSec you have a unit that is really difficult to shift and can't just be outnumbered on an objective.

 

Centurions are available to us now as well. And we can teleport them. I did that to great effect against by friends Orks. They obliterated a 30 man Boyz unit in one shooting phase, murdered the Painboy that was with them, and tied up his Gorkanaut for 2 turns. And they did it all with no support. And that was with a 3 man unit. That's a lot of work for a ~200 point unit to put in when I expected them to just die.

Nice to hear they did well for you! How did you equip the centurions? I think that setup for terminator is good but expensive point wise.. i would prefer to let the champ have his master crafted blade and keep the 2 dmg but the company vets are good now that can tank till their death

 

 

Centurions were as cheap as I could make them with hurricane bolters and flamers. 

 

I was playing against Orks, so the Thief of Secrets was 2 damage anyway.