Deploying while opponent is deploying.

[McElMcNinja]

At a recent tournament where I had taken 3x20 units of poxwalkers. To save time and knowing where I wanted to put my poxwalkers, while my opponent was deploying a unit, I would be placing poxwalkers on the board. Then after he was done and hit the clock to me, I would quickly deploy a rhino, hit the clock back to him, and then start deploying more poxwalkers.

Saved me a bunch of time on the clock and wonder if anyone else has time saving tactics. I also keep my dice grouped so I can quickly grab the required dice.

[Brother Tyler]

Is this a "tactic" or is it more a time-saving technique to streamline game play?

[Rogue]

It feels a bit underhand to me. Specifically because you're using clocks. If this was a friendly game, and you were both happy to crack on with things, then deploying like this sounds like a good idea - if anything, you're handing a slight advantage to your opponent, because you're telling him where your units are going to be deployed in the future, allowing him to better deploy his own forces.

 

But once clocks come in to it, the dynamic changes. Now, you're making use of his time to preserve your time, handing you a tactical advantage later in the game. If you push the idea further, what's to stop your opponent waiting until all of your charges have been made in your turn, and then starting to move all of his unengaged units whilst you roll for combat - after all, if he already knows what he wants to do with those units and wants to save time, why not? As long as he takes a moment to roll his saves, you're not disadvantaged, but he gets to save potentially his entire move phase, time-wise.

 

At which point, why even bother with clocks?

 

Now, I'm not you or your opponent, and if the two of you are happy to play things this way, then good for you. But for whatever reason, if you tried this against me in a proper tournament, I'd feel like you were pushing the limits of good sportsmanship. 

[tychobi]

Its a good practice. This is good sportsmanship. Playing with a clock is a skill that takes hacks like this to work well. The clock should not in an ideal world hinder the game. It is a tool to keep things fair.

[Rogue]

But is it fair? What if I have some big infantry blocks of my own? Why am I deploying those units on my clock, whilst my opponent gets to deploy his blocks on my clock too?

 

Let's say I start deploying a large squad of neophytes - my clock is ticking, I'm under pressure to get on with things, to make critical decisions. And then I look across the board and my opponent is using my time to deploy one of his big blocks. I finish setting out my neophytes, trip the clock, only to see him place the last poxwalker and trip it straight back. So now I'm deploying a second large infantry squad on my time, and he's getting another freebie.

 

I take your point that the clock is there to help, not hinder, and as I said, if both players are happy with all this, then great.

 

But I don't see how me starting with a 20 minute disadvantage because my opponent games the system is fair.

 

(Perhaps sportsmanship is the wrong word - gamesmanship might be better; exploiting situations to gain an advantage that you might not be able to achieve otherwise.)

[tychobi]

Using time to do stuff that otherwise would be dead time to do an action out of order in your opponents favor may not be RAW but is good practice. It would be poor sportsmanship to ask someone not to do as such in favor of RAW as it would be using the clock as a weapon not a game aid. Being a good sport is at its core being a game facilitator.

[Kallas]

Using time to do stuff that otherwise would be dead time to do an action out of order in your opponents favor may not be RAW but is good practice. It would be poor sportsmanship to ask someone not to do as such in favor of RAW as it would be using the clock as a weapon not a game aid. Being a good sport is at its core being a game facilitator.

 

Assuming there are two horde armies facing one another...whose time gets used then?

 

If there are two units of twenty Poxwalkers being deployed opposite one another, whose clock does it go on?

 

I agree with Rogue that it's kind of underhand. Clocks are there to keep things fair: you have X amount of time to play the game, including deployment. If you're deploying models on your opponent's time then you're getting an advantage. If I were playing against someone in a tournament, using a clock, and they didn't finish deploying their unit on their time, I'd flip the clock right back to them until they'd finished.

 

I think sometimes 'being a good sport' and 'acquiescing to someone else's unreasonable play' are mixed up. This isn't good sportsmanship; in fact I feel like it's the opposite; it's taking advantage of someone being a decent human being to not raise a fuss when they actually should, because they're being taken advantage of.

[War Angel]

Did no one notice he was deploying pox walkers during his opponents turn and rhinos when it was his turn?

[tychobi]

You would both be using each others time. The poxwalkers were not 'deployed' yet, their future position was being inferred by placing them on the table but they had not satisfied a deployment action. The rinos were deployed to meet the deploy action requirement and then he went back to fiddling with poxwalkers. At a future deployment action he could point at the poxwalkers and say "poxwalkers are now officially deployed, your go". It just saves time and gives the opponent info. There is no time cost.

[Rogue]

Well, no time cost to McElMcNinja, who is deploying on my time. But I don't see how I'm using his (or her) time, as my clock is always running when I'm deploying my troops. In effect, pushed to the extreme, the entire deployment phase happens only on my time, meaning that I start the game at a disadvantage.

 

Or to look at it another way, how about this? McElMcNinja gets to deploy the poxwalkers as he's suggested, but as soon as the first one goes down, I can hit the clock back over to him and then carry on deploying my guys. When I'm done, he puts down a rhino, and sends the clock back to me. But as soon as another poxwalker goes down out of sequence, the clock is back on him. If there's really no time cost here, and no-one gains an unfair advantage, there should be no issue with us both deploying on his clock rather than mine, right?

[Kallas]

You would both be using each others time. The poxwalkers were not 'deployed' yet, their future position was being inferred by placing them on the table but they had not satisfied a deployment action. The rinos were deployed to meet the deploy action requirement and then he went back to fiddling with poxwalkers. At a future deployment action he could point at the poxwalkers and say "poxwalkers are now officially deployed, your go". It just saves time and gives the opponent info. There is no time cost.

 

[For the Poxwalkers vs Poxwalkers question]

"You would both be using each others time."

- So why even bother? It should just be on your own time then.

 

[For non-horde vs Poxwalkers]

If the Poxwalkers aren't deployed yet (ie, they aren't a unit that has been selected to be deployed) then they shouldn't be put on the table. In a casual, non-clock setting, sure it does save time; but since we're talking clocks, where both players have a fixed amount and it is presumably a competitive environment then doing as this is unfair, because it is giving a time advantage to the Poxwalker player.

 

You brought 200 models and the event says you have to deploy on clocks? Well, that's on you to get them down fast. It's not up to your opponent to shoulder your burden; and it's not good sportsmanship to try and force it on them by just tapping the clock across.

 

"The rinos were deployed to meet the deploy action requirement and then he went back to fiddling with poxwalkers."

- So, the Poxwalker player is cheating by deliberately not using their clock for their actions? This isn't even about saving time, this is just straight up exploiting the other player and the social contract of the game for in-game benefit; you'd be counting on them accepting the situation.

 

If this happened to me in an event, I would absolutely tap the time straight back to them until they finished deploying their unit - and if they kept doing it I would call for a judge, because it is an underhanded thing to do.

[BluejayJunior]

I agree, I would not be okay with this. I wouldn't quite say it is cheating, but it is definitely leaning more that direction than towards fair play.

You are using your opponents time to complete your own actions, which is "gaming" the chess clock. The point of the clock is that both players have equal time and by doing this, you are gaining more time than your opponent. That is not okay.

You are also deploying multiple things at a time, which is definitely against the rules.

You can try to justify it however you want, but it is definitely a shady thing to do.

[BluejayJunior]

You would both be using each others time. The poxwalkers were not 'deployed' yet, their future position was being inferred by placing them on the table but they had not satisfied a deployment action. The rinos were deployed to meet the deploy action requirement and then he went back to fiddling with poxwalkers. At a future deployment action he could point at the poxwalkers and say "poxwalkers are now officially deployed, your go". It just saves time and gives the opponent info. There is no time cost.

What is to stop me from just putting my whole army on the board right at the start and then saying, "Now X is officially deployed" and immediately flipping the time back to my opponent? I use like 30 seconds of my time for deploying and my opponent has to use multiple minutes. How is that fair? 

[MegaVolt87]

Just deploy without a clock as normal, then start the timer when the game actually starts. Timing deployment really sucks, no need to do it unless you are practicing for a tournament.

[McElMcNinja]

This deployment method isn’t used by me to game the system, when I use it it’s for getting to actual playing quicker. I had an individual ask me not to and so I didn’t. Most of the time people understood what I was doing and would even mention it was giving them an advantage.

I have had players deploy their entire army and say they were going to go use the restroom and if I finished before they got back or if I needed to think about something, just flip the clock to them. I was ok with this.

I see this very similar to using movement trays, people use them to save time both deploying and moving units.

[Jings]

This deployment method isn’t used by me to game the system, when I use it it’s for getting to actual playing quicker. I had an individual ask me not to and so I didn’t. Most of the time people understood what I was doing and would even mention it was giving them an advantage.

I have had players deploy their entire army and say they were going to go use the restroom and if I finished before they got back or if I needed to think about something, just flip the clock to them. I was ok with this.

I see this very similar to using movement trays, people use them to save time both deploying and moving units.

 

Personally wouldn't have an issue at all, seeing as I've played my share of Cultist hordes and know how much of a pain in the arse it can be to get them on the board at a reasonable pace. Maybe worth saying "hey, mind if I put the footprint of this unit down and place the rest of the models during your deploys to speed things up?" I think having the defined footprint for them in place before you start putting the rest down would remove any and all fears about cheating and I can't imagine anyone but the most exceptional individual taking issue with a time-saving method that gets the game going sooner. 

Edited December 16, 2020 by Jings

[Rogue]

I think you're both still missing the point. Getting to the game quicker is fine - no-one has an issue with that, and in a friendly game, all this wouldn't be an issue.

 

The problem is that every time someone suggests a deployment 'time hack', it's about saving your time rather than your opponent's. The common factor between McElMcNinja's suggestion of deploying whole units out of sequence so that they're already down when your turn comes, or Jings' idea of deploying the basic footprint and then filling in whilst the opponent deploys is that you don't have to deploy them in your own time. So time is saved, but unevenly - you save the time, but your opponent doesn't.

 

How about this, as a twist on Jings' idea? You deploy the basic footprint of your unit. Once they're down, you tell me that I can start to deploy my next unit (to save time and get to the game quicker), but you leave your clock ticking until your whole unit is down. If you fill in the footprint before I'm done deploying my unit, fair enough, time moves over to me; but if I got my unit down whilst you were still deploying the original unit, then time stays with you and you roll straight on to your next unit. The overall deployment phase runs quicker, and I consider you to be a generous and sporting opponent for handing me a time advantage for the sake of a fun game. 

 

I guess you'd have to agree with this, unless you're that exceptional individual who would take issue with a time-saving method that gets the game going sooner. Obviously, in this version, it's my time we're saving, not yours, but if the only purpose of this is to get to the game as quickly as we can, then that's not going to be a problem for you, right?

 

But no-one seems to suggest doing it that way. It's always about saving yourself time at your opponent's expense. Which is why it feels wrong, I think.

[Kallas]

Exactly Rogue. The issue I think Rogue and I, particularly, have is that this suggestion is about Chess Clock formats, where each player has X amount of time.

 

If you're deploying your units on my time, you're saving time. Yes, you get to the actual battle quicker, but you've gained an advantage over me by using my time.

 

As Rogue said, in a casual game, this isn't a problem, because the focus isn't on the even, balanced competitive game; it's about having a good fun game. But once a timekeeping device is introduced it's a very different kettle of fish.

 

And to quote McElMcNinja:
"At a recent tournament where I had taken 3x20 units of poxwalkers. To save time and knowing where I wanted to put my poxwalkers, while my opponent was deploying a unit, I would be placing poxwalkers on the board. Then after he was done and hit the clock to me, I would quickly deploy a rhino, hit the clock back to him, and then start deploying more poxwalkers.

Saved me a bunch of time on the clock and wonder if anyone else has time saving tactics."

 

This is a tournament, and it sounds like a clock is involved - and later in this thread there is talk of chess clocks, which is where a lot of my own reservations kick in. If you're running a tournament with players getting 1hr 30m each per game, and one player is deploying their horde army using your clock, they are gaining an advantage by not using their own clock, thereby getting more time during the game.

[MegaVolt87]

Yeah Rouge + Kallas have the right of it. I came up against similar issues in other table top system's tournaments during deployment (flames of war, warmahordes), called over TO, opponent warned/ penalized both times. Saving time on my clock no way, get better at deployment of your hordes/ blobs which gives advantages in any tabletop systems, change your army or we can "save time" by running off your clock instead.

[Claws and Effect]

Friendly game? Sure. Whatever both players agree on is fair game.

 

Timed tournament where each player is given 90 minutes for the whole game, including deployment?

 

If you are dropping 19 poxwalkers while your opponent's clock is running, and then dropping a single model on your own clock, you are straight up cheating. There's no gray area there.

 

Your opponent could be taking up to a couple minutes at a time to deploy a given unit. If you are placing one of your units at the same time and flipping the clock back within a few seconds your opponent starts the game with, say 80 minutes left, while you have used hardly any time at all.

 

You are abusing the rules to gain a tangible advantage and any TO worth their salt will squash it immediately when it is brought to their attention.

 

I'll elaborate.

 

What happens in a scenario where you went first and both players have had 3 turns, but your opponent is out of time while you have 11 minutes to get as much of your turn 4 done as you can?

 

You just got an extra chance to score points that your opponent doesn't get because you placed the majority of your models while their clock was running.

 

What if you were down by 8 points and score 10 for holding 2 objectives because you had extra time you shouldn't have gotten by gaming the system so your opponent had less time than you?

 

Your tactic just won you that game because you gave yourself an unfair advantage. Don't know about you, but that's cheating in my book.

Edited April 3, 2021 by Claws and Effect

[McElMcNinja]

I guess we shall just agree to disagree, I don’t start crying that my opponent cheated that he set up his five (chaos) knights all at one time and said “I’m done deploying”. Instead I set up my army, however long it takes, and start playing.

Sure I could say, you can’t pull that model out until I’m done deploying my unit, but I don’t. Why? Because I don’t care, I understand what he is doing and I move on. To some I guess that’s not acceptable and like I said, if someone has an issue with it I stop. But most people are reasonable and we spend our time actually playing the game and not wasting time on trivial matters.

[Claws and Effect]

Like I said, if no game clock is involved it doesn't matter as long as both players agree to it.

 

But if each player has 90 minutes including deployment and you start the game with 88 minutes and 40 seconds because you set up the majority of a unit while your opponents clock was running and 1 model while yours was, and your opponent has 80 minutes, you've given yourself an unfair advantage that can make the difference between winning and losing.

 

And I honestly don't see how you don't consider that cheating to gain an advantage over your opponent. It's pretty clear. If your 90 minutes includes deployment and you place units on your opponents time when you should be placing them on your own, it's not fair at all.

 

By all rights if a TO catches you doing it you should be penalized, and if you're caught repeatedly you should be disqualified.

 

And if you were playing against me? I would *absolutely* call you on it. Sportsmanship definitely covers things like not doing underhanded stuff to gain an advantage over your opponent.

 

Sure, *you* saved some time *at the cost of your opponents time*, and anyone who values fair play would have every right to be upset about it.

Edited April 3, 2021 by Claws and Effect

[Kallas]

I guess we shall just agree to disagree, I don’t start crying that my opponent cheated that he set up his five (chaos) knights all at one time and said “I’m done deploying”. Instead I set up my army, however long it takes, and start playing.

Sure I could say, you can’t pull that model out until I’m done deploying my unit, but I don’t. Why? Because I don’t care, I understand what he is doing and I move on. To some I guess that’s not acceptable and like I said, if someone has an issue with it I stop. But most people are reasonable and we spend our time actually playing the game and not wasting time on trivial matters.

 

First off, this is a very different situation: " I don’t start crying that my opponent cheated that he set up his five (chaos) knights all at one time and said “I’m done deploying” " This is about doing things in the wrong order, but if we want to relate it to the initial argument (ie, deploying on your opponent's time) then if the Knight player puts all of their Knights down on their time? Then that's giving their opponent all of the advantages (they can determine their best response to the relevant Knights, because the Knight player has decided to ignore any of their own responses to their opponents' deployments).

 

So that situation just isn't equivalent. It's a different element, and you can't compare it. The more relevant situation would be if the Knight player places one while their opponent is deploying a squad of something, then when the time is tapped back to them they just immediately tap it back and point to their Knight saying, "done" - that is using their opponent's time and is equivalent (and considering pure-Knights are often extremely quick to deploy in any case, it's also a lot less important, because the amount of time advantage they would gain is insignificant...whereas a horde of Poxwalkers would generate a significant time advantage).

 

Additionally, it's not about "you can’t pull that model out until I’m done deploying my unit" it's about, "you can't deploy that unit while I'm deploying to save time in a clock format".

 

You're trying to make casual, non-timed arguments to defend a competitive, quantitative advantage being gained. You can quite literally measure how much of an advantage someone would gain by doing this with another player. You claim it's a "trivial matter", and sure, you might not give a damn, and in the grand scheme of life, sure, it's not the end of the world. But why should anyone follow any rules if we don't enforce this one? Why should I deploy my units in coherency if you're going to ignore the rule about deploying in your own allotted time? Why shouldn't I fudge my LoS? Why shouldn't I move this unit two extra inches every time I move it?

 

You're trying to apply some kind of 'it's a social game for fun' easy going type approach, to a format that is clearly intending itself to be competitive and fair. Yes, in a basic pick up game, you can just relax and let them do whatever. Even in a tournament people let things slide, but if someone is calling you on the actual application of rules in a tournament, it's not on them to 'relax' and just let their opponent gain a qualitative advantage over them: it's on their opponent to be better at the game to beat them fairly, because that's how the tournament is meant to be played.

[Spinsanity]

I guess we shall just agree to disagree

I’m curious, if it is such a trivial thing to you, why don’t you let all the deployment take place on your own time instead? You keep on insisting it’s not a disadvantage to your opponent, so why would it be one to you?

Edited April 3, 2021 by Spinsanity

[War Angel]

This isn’t a mater of different opinions. One way is wrong, and the other way is right. And as has been said many times, if it’s not an issue, why don’t you let the opponent set up on your time?

 

It’s not a time saving tactic, it’s an underhanded cheat.