Who is on top? High Lords or Roboute?

[Lucerne]

The false Primarch wasn't one of the established loyalist sons.

And neither is "Robute" in this hypothetical narrative.

[Ishagu]

Except he is. And he arrived on Terra and fought off Magnus and a Demonic invasion, and had an audience with the Emperor that was confirmed by the Adeptus Custodes.

 

There is no hypothetical.

[Slave to Darkness]

WE know that, but the average everyday schmuck wouldnt even know a the difference between a Space Marine and a Chaos Marine. I dont think Guilliman would have live streamed the meeting on Twitch, so it would be easy to declare Guilliman a false Primarch. 

All we need is an Inquisitor to say 'revived by xenos death magic' and boom, xenos sleeper cell in the making. Hell even Guillaman cant deny he came back with a little alien help... 

[Ishagu]

Not so easy, he has too many allies in too many places, including the Custodes, Mechanicus, Inquisition.

 

An Inquisitor does not have that kind of power.

 

It would be easier for Guilliman to say the Inquisition has been corrupted at this point, than the other way around.

 

Some High Lords already tried to rebel, and they were all assassinated. Guilliman was several steps ahead, even whilst off world. Trajan, who sits with the High Lords is an ally also.

 

At this point he has been established for hundreds of years, too.

Edited December 5, 2020 by Ishagu

[Rik Lightstar]

Of course he can deny it.

 

One of the most powerful tools in politics and propaganda is to either dismiss, ignore or completely reframe any argument that you dislike.

 

Also, Inquisitors have previously "disappeared" after making the wrong accusations towards the wrong Marine Chapters. Any Inquisitor would need some pretty serious backing to be able to even voice the suspicion.

 

Rik

[Closet Skeleton]

If everyone else on the Senate aggreed to gang up on Roboute on an issue he would have to go with what they say. If just the Captain General and the Fabricator General decided they disagreed with Roboute he would be in trouble. As long as those two are at least neutral he can probably get away with anything.

Edited December 5, 2020 by Closet Skeleton

[Ishagu]

The Inquisition couldn't deal with Logan Grimnar and the Space Wolves by themselves, never mind the Primarch who commands the entire Imperium at this point.

 

Lore is already there. They are limited when dealing with revered and established Imperial Institutions. The son of the Emperor, the walking deity from the age of myth, is not something they can challenge openly or overtly, and will be extremely limited in any capacity.

[Slave to Darkness]

Lore can be changed.. Wouldnt be the first time GW have pulled a sneaky to push a new product. 

 

[WARMASTER_]

All of these points people are making about changing lore or saying you could declare him false don’t change the fact, Guiliman in lore is the lord Commander of the imperium and can remove any high lord he wants at any time, he has all the power and political influence. he could literally take Terra if he wanted let alone take out the few in the 12 that would oppose him Edited December 10, 2020 by BladeOfVengeance

[Sword Brother Adelard]

There's probably only one, maybe two of the 12 who would have the ability to kill a primarch. The Fabricator General arguably has control, separately, over enough man power to give it a go, and the Head of the Officio Assassinorum probably has the tools locked away somewhere to achieve the task. But in both cases, to what end?

[Felix Antipodes]

GW has spent 50-odd books of the Horus Heresy showing how every Primarch had the ability (to varying levels) to overpower the will of mere humans by their presence alone. Guilliman could reduce any wayward High Lord to a gibbering mess before they could initiate any coup against him.

[Helias_Tancred]

In Guilliman I trust. ;)

[Azekai]

GW has spent 50-odd books of the Horus Heresy showing how every Primarch had the ability (to varying levels) to overpower the will of mere humans by their presence alone. Guilliman could reduce any wayward High Lord to a gibbering mess before they could initiate any coup against him.

I still do not get this reasoning (or lack thereof). Personal charisma/awesomeness doesn’t grant magical immunity to treachery. If the Emperor could be betrayed, you bet your power armored butt that Guilleman could be undermined. The galaxy is incredibly vast and fraught with warp storms. If a wayward noble wished to foment insurrection, it would be easy- just wreak havoc where Guilleman and his sons aren’t. It is always easier to tear down than it is to build.

Edited December 10, 2020 by Azekai

[b1soul]

Balance of power is currently in favour of Guilliman, no doubt

 

Having the relatively "progressive" Valoris firmly on his side is also a massive trump card. That is the 40K equivalent of having the Emperor publicly on your side.

 

The majority of the High Lords support him and he commands the Ultramarine and their successors, and the Primaris are essentially his brain-children.

[Arkangilos]

Whoever controls the military will ultimately have the most power.

 

It’s like that scene from Rome when Octavian politely persuaded them to vote for his proposal.

 

The HLoT holds the authority, but Guilliman holds Imperium, which in turn means he holds the HLoT.

[Brother Ramael]

There is no doubt the High Lords are the political top dogs of the Imperium.... as long as they obey to Roboute .

The fun would happen if another primarch awakens, not really because of possible conflicts between the two ( most of them in their head just got out of a civil war) but because of the monumental headache the Administratum would get.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

Whoever controls the military will ultimately have the most power.

 

Didn't QUITE work out that way in The Regent's Shadow.

[Metzombie]

Whoever controls the military will ultimately have the most power.

 

What military? The Astra Militarum? Without help from the fleet your guys are going nowhere. The Fleet? Without the AM your guys have noch chance to hold any ground. The Fleet and the AM? Your guys will probly starve to death without the Muntiorum. At this point you need to have at least 3 high lords working together to even have a chance to use your power. And that leaves the Mechanicum, the Astartes and the Ecclesiarchy as counters.

[Ishagu]

It's already been established that any High Lords who consider undermining or rebelling against the Primarch will be swiftly and mercilessly assassinated.

[Arkangilos]

 

 

Whoever controls the military will ultimately have the most power.

 

What military? The Astra Militarum? Without help from the fleet your guys are going nowhere. The Fleet? Without the AM your guys have noch chance to hold any ground. The Fleet and the AM? Your guys will probly starve to death without the Muntiorum. At this point you need to have at least 3 high lords working together to even have a chance to use your power. And that leaves the Mechanicum, the Astartes and the Ecclesiarchy as counters.

Pretty sure I said “The military”.

 

And who do you think they would be more likely to follow, someone they were indoctrinated to believe is the son of their god or a rogue High Lord?

[Lucerne]

It's already been established that any High Lords who consider undermining or rebelling against the Primarch will be swiftly and mercilessly assassinated.

Any High Lords that make mistakes in removing the Heresy's leftovers, you mean. Robute's busy losing a war and isn't around to keep an eye on things and if one thing's very common in Imperial politics, it's quiet backstabbing and insurrection.

[jaxom]

 

 

Whoever controls the military will ultimately have the most power.

What military? The Astra Militarum? Without help from the fleet your guys are going nowhere. The Fleet? Without the AM your guys have noch chance to hold any ground. The Fleet and the AM? Your guys will probly starve to death without the Muntiorum. At this point you need to have at least 3 high lords working together to even have a chance to use your power. And that leaves the Mechanicum, the Astartes and the Ecclesiarchy as counters.

Pretty sure I said “The military”.

 

And who do you think they would be more likely to follow, someone they were indoctrinated to believe is the son of their god or a rogue High Lord?

 

 

I think the issue is that the military of the Imperium is not a monolithic force. It's more feudal in how the individual systems, sectors, and segmentums are organized and respond to threats and crises. The Astra Militarum in one sector may have oaths and contracts of reciprocation with the Imperial Navy's sector fleet going back generations and in another sector they may be at each other's throats.  

 

The other issue is that while we can't prescriptively say how anyone may react we can descriptively acknowledge similar situations of the past. Imperial history is full of times when Astartes were on the receiving end of human armies controlled by other Imperium organizations. It didn't matter that they were the Emperor's Angels of Death or genetic pseudo-progeny of the Primarchs. Bucharis and Vandire are the biggest examples of this, but not the only ones.

[b1soul]

The High Lords already tried an insurrection on Terra. Look how that turned out for them.

[Arkangilos]

 

 

 

 

Whoever controls the military will ultimately have the most power.

What military? The Astra Militarum? Without help from the fleet your guys are going nowhere. The Fleet? Without the AM your guys have noch chance to hold any ground. The Fleet and the AM? Your guys will probly starve to death without the Muntiorum. At this point you need to have at least 3 high lords working together to even have a chance to use your power. And that leaves the Mechanicum, the Astartes and the Ecclesiarchy as counters.

Pretty sure I said “The military”.

 

And who do you think they would be more likely to follow, someone they were indoctrinated to believe is the son of their god or a rogue High Lord?

I think the issue is that the military of the Imperium is not a monolithic force. It's more feudal in how the individual systems, sectors, and segmentums are organized and respond to threats and crises. The Astra Militarum in one sector may have oaths and contracts of reciprocation with the Imperial Navy's sector fleet going back generations and in another sector they may be at each other's throats.

 

The other issue is that while we can't prescriptively say how anyone may react we can descriptively acknowledge similar situations of the past. Imperial history is full of times when Astartes were on the receiving end of human armies controlled by other Imperium organizations. It didn't matter that they were the Emperor's Angels of Death or genetic pseudo-progeny of the Primarchs. Bucharis and Vandire are the biggest examples of this, but not the only ones.

No military in the world is a monolithic force, so that’s not an argument.

 

You bring up a good point in my favor for Vandire, though, because for a time he did control the military. It wasn’t until later that the military started flipping on him, and then he lost. His final death was when his own personal army turned on him.

 

Guilliman, at this moment, commands the military, because no matter where he goes the majority sees him as a divine son of the emperor. Most of the commanders and people that he will interact with will side with him.

If the HLoTs turn on him, the military personnel will be faced with two choices; turning against a god or siding with the god to fight the corrupt politicians that they know nothing about. That is an easy choice.

 

For all intents and purposes, Guilliman controls the military because the people in the military are trained from birth to worship the emperor and his sons.

 

By the way, “control the military” doesn’t always mean black and white “I’m your commander, do what I say”, it means who will be loyal to who, primarily. No matter where they fall on the feudal scale, he will always be the second they owe their highest loyalty to, the emperor being the first, which means they will pick his word over others.

Edited December 24, 2020 by Arkangilos

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

 

Guilliman, at this moment, commands the military, because no matter where he goes the majority sees him as a divine son of the emperor. Most of the commanders and people that he will interact with will side with him.

If the HLoTs turn on him, the military personnel will be faced with two choices; turning against a god or siding with the god to fight the corrupt politicians that they know nothing about. That is an easy choice.

 

For all intents and purposes, Guilliman controls the military because the people in the military are trained from birth to worship the emperor and his sons.

 

By the way, “control the military” doesn’t always mean black and white “I’m your commander, do what I say”, it means who will be loyal to who, primarily. No matter where they fall on the feudal scale, he will always be the second they owe their highest loyalty to, the emperor being the first, which means they will pick his word over others.

 

 

You really need to read The Regent's Shadow. The military really isn't "trained from birth to worship the Emperor *and his sons.*" Faith in the EMPEROR is prevalent, yes. But not so much the Primarchs. I'd compare it to the way a Protestant views the Catholic saints. They may have some vague sense of veneration by association, but that's about it. And Bobby G. himself may have personal charisma that's off the charts, but that doesn't do much when he's off fighting the Crusade and most of the miliary back on Terra have never even seen him in person.

 

As for his transhuman cred, the rebelling High Lords actually used that as a selling point in their favor. They were REAL humans who could relate to the people, not some genetically-engineered experiment bearing only superficial resemblance (paraphrasing their argument).