Questions from a Codex + Supplement Newb

[ThePenitentOne]

Well I took the plunge. My local store had a Corvus Blackstar; it's been my favourite flyer model for some time, and I wanted my Morathi coin. I picked up a five man Kill Team box to ride in it, and that got me over the threshold for the coin and came in at less than the Combat Patrol box.

 

The reason I love Deathwatch, aside from the Blackstar, is their relationship with the Ordo Xenos; I've recently picked up Kyria Draxus, and she needed a ride and some back-up. I had the supplement- I needed to buy a book to see what bespoke Crusade content looked like, and the supplement was $10 cheaper than the SM dex, and none of the other chapters of marines interest me (with the exception of Grey Knights).

 

Now we're almost into December, so I will need to go coin hunting again soon, and pick up my free model while I'm at it- cool side note, I suspect this month's will be a 40k model and coin- likely Death Guard. Obviously, I'm going to pick up the SM dex- can't play Deathwatch to the hilt without it. But I'm trying to figure out what the rest of the order is going to be to make it across the threshold. GW has not made this easy for me.

 

I need a Commander for my Deathwatch force- even though the book says that Xenos Inquisitors work closely with the Deathwatch, and have even acted as commanders of Watch Fortresses, there are no rules to allow me to actually do this. To put the whole thing on the field, I need to field the Deathwatch components as a Patrol and attach Kyria as an Agent of the Imperium.

 

I want the Watch Master- I love a model with facial hair. Not so hot on the pose- might see if I can convert it to something more dynamic, but I still want it. Now my store has this problem where a) they don't always keep off-beat choices in stock, and b) if something isn't in stock, they get it through the webstore as if they were a regular customer, rather than a company retailer. The final problem to complete the trifecta is that GW has gone and removed the Watchmaster from the Canadian Webstore.

 

There's still a chance my store has a Watchmaster- the Canadian Webstore also doesn't have the Blackstare as a stand-alone kit, and I manged to get it just fine. If can get one, well that still doesn't push me over the coin threshold. Either way I need another unit; if I get my Watchmaster. I'd prefer a cheap unit (dollars, not points); if I don't, I'll need something more expensive. This is where I'm looking for advice.

 

I can't find anything in the supplement that mentions restrictions from taking Codex units. I like Chaplains, but I'm not sold on Kill Team Cassius, now that the Terminators aren't Terminators and the Bike isn't a Bike because there aren't enough of them in the unit, and since Kill Team Cassius is the only why to buy Chaplain Cassius, well that's out. So can I take regular Chaplains? A jump pack Chaplain? A Primaris Chaplain? An Outrider Chaplain?

 

Is it safe to assume I can take ALL the stuff in the SM Codex? I mean, if so, that's Gravy!

 

(It's worth mentioning that I have Tooth and Claw, and no real intention of building Space Wolves; so I've got 3 Aggressors, 5 Intercessors and a Redemptor Dread- I think the Deathwatch upgrade sprue works on both Interessors and Aggressors. I also have the Primaris Battle Leader, but I'm not sure that's a thing anymore, and I'm not sure the load-out is legal if I want to call him a lieutenant- boy howdy, I forgot about him; if I could use him as my HQ, I can already field my Patrol)

 

Thanks for any advice; sorry to ramble.

[Debauchery101]

Buy the Cassius box if you can. Its priced well for its contents. Gives you the option to use them as that team or gives you models to use in a proteus kill team that are designed nice. Cassius and Natorian are priced well for their in game abilities. More so natorian than Cassius.

You should get both codex and supplement first. DW is such a versatile faction that you really can play a list of almost any style with effectiveness. If there is a marine type list you enjoy then you can do with with DW and most likely take the majority as troops.

Some of the top units

Vet bikers

Land speeder tempests

Stalker vets

Combi flamer/shield vets

Vanguard vets

Stalker-cessors

Plasma-ceptors

 

I'd say that aggressors are the least favorable infantry unit for DW. Unless you run an indomitor killteam. Which they are good to include for the power fists.

[ThePenitentOne]

Oh yeah, I didn't realize Natorian was in the box- the librarian and chaplain would almost make up the cost of the box with just those two models.

 

I really like vets more than Primaris- but I'll use the Tooth and Claw stuff because if I don't, it'll just sit there.

 

Edit: Just called the store- they did have a Watch Master; so that + the dex + a model for another army (an Imagifier for SoB) are all set aside for the free model/ coin launch day; this exceeds my coin threshold by a mere $5.

 

I will definitely pick up Kill Team Cassius, but this saves me $15, so they're going to have to wait a little bit longer. Kyria will provide Psychic power, which means that I won't feel Natorian's absence as much as I otherwise would. Thanks so much for reminding me he was in the box though- that really seals the deal.

Edited November 27, 2020 by ThePenitentOne

[Debauchery101]

You'd do well to swoop up any hvy bolter and frag cannon marines you can as well. One unit I've been using this week is a proteus KT 5 vets/5 bikers. In terrain the bikers get to act like infantry. You can teleport them in and put the imperial fists or Crimson fists tactics into effect and they have 40 shots all together. 25 from bikers, 2 sgt, 13 from hvy bolters. I also make sure to specialize the kill team so I can take the most advantage of the extra hits Edited November 27, 2020 by Debauchery101

[ThePenitentOne]

You'd do well to swoop up any hvy bolter and frag cannon marines you can as well. One unit I've been using this week is a proteus KT 5 vets/5 bikers. In terrain the bikers get to act like infantry. You can teleport them in and put the imperial fists or Crimson fists tactics into effect and they have 40 shots all together. 25 from bikers, 2 sgt, 13 from hvy bolters. I also make sure to specialize the kill team so I can take the most advantage of the extra hits

 

Yeah, I'm building this five man as Close Combat monsters to travel with Draxus and keep her alive, but the Next time a buy a kill team box, I'll have the leftover frag cannons, infernus etc. Gotta check the dex out too, and don't have it yet.

 

Kinda torn on vet bikes; they are harder to get than Outriders, and the Outriders also match the new Bike Chaplain. Gotta pick up a few Deathwatch upgrade sprues too, and the skulls box has lots of Xeno Skulls. Wish there were more of the I icons in the upgrade sprue- I'd like to put two on each bike + a skull.

 

Haven't figured out what I've going to do for the second Combat Squad to go my five CC vets. If I can find Vet Bikes, might do, but also like Jump pack Vuts.

 

Question- are the shoulder pads from the uprgade sprue goof for Termies?

[Cleon]

 

Question- are the shoulder pads from the uprgade sprue goof for Termies?

 

There are two Terminator pads and 10 power aremour pads on the upgrade sprue, the Terminaor pads work for Terminators and Gravis, I would't want to use the power armour pads on them though.

[Debauchery101]

If bikers are hard to get just use outriders. They are similar in size and the repackaged bikers use the same size base. the outrider upper body are easier to convert than the other bikers in my opinion. Also they come with chainswords and their bikes have more area to swag them out

 

For more icons...I made green stuff molds for them and used greenstuff to cast them..even did the door icon from a corvus black star

Edited November 27, 2020 by Debauchery101

[ThePenitentOne]

Thanks for the heads up on the Termie pads- hard to tell from the picture. Also, great Idea about making the casting from the blackstar bits- that will really help with the dread; the Icons on the sprue look like they might be a bit small.

 

As for Outriders, I do like the models; if I picked them up though, I think I'd just use them for a Fortis team and round out my Proteus with jump packs or Termies instead of bikes. I might choose to go this way even if I do find old marine bikes. Although if I find them and the price is good, who knows?

 

Either way, that biker Chaplain is so good that I know there's some outriders in the future.

 

Oh, good news: finished building Draxus today- what a pain to put together. Her bodyguard vets should be super easy by comparison. Might get them done tonight too. Thanks for all the support.

[Debauchery101]

As a fine tune on those upgrade kits. If you buy from independent guys you could have some fit problems depending on the terminators. There was DW upgrade for firstborn and Deathwatch for primaris. Thankfully the latter is good for both but the older firstborn terminator shoulderpads will have way too much extra room for your gravis.

 

Also vets melee weapons and arm sizes are the same exact size as most primaris arms.

The heads have some difficulties. Swapping heads between the vets and primaris requires a bit of work on the bottom of the necks.

 

Thank God I've had like 10000 spare powersword arms that nobody ever used and they work great for the indomitus marines because you have to chop the blank pads off their arms if you dont have replacements. Which for the Eradicators and blade guard...the chop is better because the arms won't be good for the meltas or shields

Edited November 28, 2020 by Debauchery101

[Debauchery101]

Thanks for the heads up on the Termie pads- hard to tell from the picture. Also, great Idea about making the casting from the blackstar bits- that will really help with the dread; the Icons on the sprue look like they might be a bit small.

 

As for Outriders, I do like the models; if I picked them up though, I think I'd just use them for a Fortis team and round out my Proteus with jump packs or Termies instead of bikes. I might choose to go this way even if I do find old marine bikes. Although if I find them and the price is good, who knows?

 

Either way, that biker Chaplain is so good that I know there's some outriders in the future.

 

Oh, good news: finished building Draxus today- what a pain to put together. Her bodyguard vets should be super easy by comparison. Might get them done tonight too. Thanks for all the support.

are you just going to take company vets or as a vet squad

[ThePenitentOne]

 

Thanks for the heads up on the Termie pads- hard to tell from the picture. Also, great Idea about making the casting from the blackstar bits- that will really help with the dread; the Icons on the sprue look like they might be a bit small.

 

As for Outriders, I do like the models; if I picked them up though, I think I'd just use them for a Fortis team and round out my Proteus with jump packs or Termies instead of bikes. I might choose to go this way even if I do find old marine bikes. Although if I find them and the price is good, who knows?

 

Either way, that biker Chaplain is so good that I know there's some outriders in the future.

 

Oh, good news: finished building Draxus today- what a pain to put together. Her bodyguard vets should be super easy by comparison. Might get them done tonight too. Thanks for all the support.

are you just going to take company vets or as a vet squad

 

 

They're Deathwatch Veterans that are part of a Proteus kill Team. I have some questions about Proteus Kill teams, but I'll get to that at the end.

 

I'm never going to have a full size DW army; these guys are meant to be support for Xenos Inquisitors. If I can get this collection to Battalion size, that's about as far as I'd expect it to go.

I figure two Proteus Kill Team- one with Vets and Termies, the other with Vets and Vanguard Jumpers. Third Kill team is Fortis- Intercessors and Outriders. HQ would be the Watch Master and the Biker Chaplain. And of course, I've got my Blackstar.

 

On top of this, I might add Kill Team Cassius, and I might add an Indomitor team since I have Aggressors.

 

Now for the questions part:

 

A minimum sized Proteus Kill team has a PL of 7 (pg 52); a minimum sized squad of Deathwatch Veterans has a PL of 9 (pg 56). These two units are identical. Why the difference?

 

A second question: the squad has a minimum of 4 vets and 1 sergeant; so if you want a Blackshield, do you have to buy it, or is it an upgrade on one of the vets?

 

Related to this: must combat squads have a minimum size of 5, or could an 8 man kill team break into 5 vets and three vet bikers?

Vets, Terminators and Vanguard vets all have minimum squad sizes of 5, so obviously they can't break down smaller than 5; throw a Blackshield into any of these combos and breaks Combat Squading, since it can't be a vanguard or a terminator.

 

But if you could Combat squad the Bikers out in a squad of three, you'd still have room for the Blackshield in the other squad- assuming combat squads can be bigger than 5.

[Debauchery101]

There is no concrete power level formula. But when playing via power level it accounts for all possible options you equip the unit with and roughly around wounds as well. Black shields are not upgrades

[Claws and Effect]

Combat squad can only happen when the squad in question is at max size. So you cannot combat squad an 8 man unit. They do that so the combat squadded unit still meets the minimum size for that unit when it is split.

 

If you have a Proteus Kill Team made up of Veterans, Bikers, Vanguard Veterans, and Terminators it does not matter how you split them. If you put 5 Terminators in a Proteus and then combat squad them the 5 Terminators are still considered a Proteus Kill Team and not a Deathwatch Terminator squad. This matters because a Proteus Kill Team has Objective Secured while a Deathwatch Terminator squad does not.

 

If you have 5 Veterans, 2 Terminators, 2 Bikers, and 1 Vanguard Veteran you can split that squad any way you want. You do not have to keep all 5 Veterans together.

[ThePenitentOne]

But bikes only get to be bikey if they are alone in their combat squads (though they still count as infantry for scenery interactions), terminators only get to teleport if they're alone in their combat squad and jump vets only get to jump when they're alone in their combat squad. So while I CAN take one Combat squad of Sergeant + 4 Vets on foot and another of two termies and 3 jump packs, it would be stupid to do so because the Terminators and jump packs would lose their unit based special rules.

 

If, on the other hand, I make one kill team in combat squads of Sergeant + 4 vets on foot and 5 Terminators, and another kill team in combat squads of 1 Sergeant + 4 vets on foot and 5 jump vets, both the jump vets AND the terminators get to keep their unit based special rules, because they will each find themselves in homogenous squads that meet the minimum squad size requirement.

 

This is why it's such a big deal that the Blackshield is a model and not an upgrade. If it was an upgrade, you could apply it to one of the four mandatory vets on foot that you are legally required to take in order to field a Proteus Kill Team. But it isn't an upgrade, and since you must take those four vets on foot, it means the Blackshield must be a member of the second combat squad, and since a Blackshield is part of the veterans on foot datacard, you can't teleport if you fill the rest of that squad with terminators or deepstrike if you fill it with jump troops.

 

What I was hoping to do is take a nine man squad with Sergeant + four vets on foot + blackshield + 3 bikes. Because 3 is the minimum squad size for bikes, I had hoped to be able to break this unit into a combat squad of 3 bikes and 6 models on foot. Because the Combat Squads rule is a generic space marine rule and not a deathwatch specific rule, I was already pretty sure I can't do this, but I figured I would ask just in case.

 

Anyway, there is a way around this; I am a Crusade player, and there is a Deathwatch specific Requisition which allows you to upgrade a vet to a Blackshield.

[Lemondish]

You also can't add a Black Shield to a Proteus Kill Team anyway, so it isn't really relevant.

[ThePenitentOne]

You also can't add a Black Shield to a Proteus Kill Team anyway, so it isn't really relevant.

 

This is weird, because the Proteus Kill Team description tells you to reference the Veterans entry, and the Blackshield is a part of the Veterans entry. 

 

The supplement is actually a pretty confusing little book.

 

Should have my Watch Master and SM Codex by the end of the day; tomorrow might be warm enough to spray primer some models. I can build the Watchmaster tonight and figure out my fully costed starting Crusade. We're gonna get our butts kicked for the first few sessions because I'm insisting on making room for Draxus right from the beginning. 

 

If I built her a dedicated Inquisitorial Vanguard and kept my DW Crusade pure, the DW would have more tools to work with- I could get the Intercessors or the Aggressors on the board. But like I said, right from conception, this small DW force was intended to be backup for the Ordo Xenos.

[Lemondish]

It is a bit weird, but it's largely because the Black Shield is now a model, not an upgrade.

 

Or rather that was the way it was interpreted, but given the new Army Builder in the app has some additional wording in the Proteus KT section, we're back to being able to add one (once the official FAQ comes through).

[ThePenitentOne]

Okay, sweet news: Got my SM Codex, my Watch Master and my store even had two DW upgrade sprues in stock so I got those too; I online ordered my two space monkeys and it got me me free Death Guard and my DG collector coin.

 

So here's how the Crusade is banging out:

 

Kyria Draxus, Slotless HQ (Imperial Agent), 5 PL

+1 Requisition point for Alpha Class Psyker 

Powers: Mental Interrogation, Castigation

 

Proteus Kill Team, 7 PL

+1 Requisition point for Purgatus Specialism

- Vet Sergeant: Xenophase Blade + Storm Shield

- Vet: Power Sword + Storm Shield

- Vet: Power Sword + Storm Shield

- Vet: Deathwatch Frag Cannon

- Vet: Deathwatch Frag Cannon

 

Watch Master, 7 PL

+1 Requisition point for Master Furor

 

Fortis Kill Team, 6PL

+1 Requisition point for Furor Specialism

- Intercessor Sergeant: Power Sword + Stalker Bolt Rifle

- 3x Intercessor with Stalker Bolt Rifle

- Intercessor with Stalker Bolt Rifle + Astartes grenade launchers

 

+1 Requisition point for increased Supply Limit (to accommodate PL increases for the other RP spent on the unit upgrades)

 

So from what you can see here, Draxus rolls out with support from the assault themed Proteus vets while the Watch Master is supported by the shootier Fortis team. Keep in mind, this is based on models I have; I would rather field the second Proteus team than the Fortis, but I've blown my December 40k Budget, so the second KT box has to wait til January.

 

Also: Draxus DOES have an Ordo Xenos Vanguard detachment that she will lead once my games get big enough to field a second detachment. She may even deploy with that detachment as often as she deploys with this one, but it'll take a while to actually acquire the models- the Space Monkeys are paid for, and they're on the way, but I'll need to make a purchase for her Acolytes- probably Scions.  She will likely swap out Mental Interrogation for Psychic Veil when she deploys with her Xenos Vanguard. I will also need a Vindicare Assassin.

 

Technically, the units from this Vanguard would be a part of my Order of Battle- I just don't have an adequate supply limit to field them alongside their Deathwatch support detachment yet.

 

There are also some plans for growth on deck: the Proteus KT will grow to include 5 Vanguard vets; the Fortis KT will grow to include 5 Outriders; once I can field the Xenos Vanguard, the hole she leaves in the DW detachment will be filled by a Primaris Biker Chaplain; there is also a Corvus Blackstar and a Redemptor Dread on the way- the bonus here is that I already own both Models, it's just a matter of getting them built and growing my supply limit enough to add them in. Finally, I have some Aggressors on deck, but they may wait until Heavy Intercessors drop, because I'd rather field them as part of an Indomitor Kill Team instead of a stand alone unit.

 

One thing is certain: other than Outriders, any Primaris models in my force are doomed to remain footsloggers as I loathe the aesthetics of Imperial Hover Tanks, and these seem to be the only vehicles that GW will ever let them ride.

 

Thanks for all the feedback along the way guys- very much appreciated. Hopefully I'll get off my butt and build a suitable photo station so I can turn this thread into a WIP!

Edited December 9, 2020 by ThePenitentOne

[Qui-Gon]

I am going to have to burst your bubble, but your crusade list is illegal.

 

The named inquisitors cannot have Alpha class psyker. Confer with Psychic Awakening: Pariah.

 

You cannot spend Requisition to make a Watch Master a Master of Specialisms. They are a Battle Honor that can be selected when directed, and cannot be given as a starting rule.

 

You cannot spend Requisition to make any Kill Team to have a Kill Team Specialism UNTIL they are at least Battle-hardened, or 16 xp, because the specialisms are not a stratagem that upgrades them, instead they have stated restricted rules on how it can be taken.

Edited December 9, 2020 by Qui-Gon

[ThePenitentOne]

Yep- messed up quite a bit there. I read through the rules last night and put the list together today without rereading the books to double check everything- that'll teach me! Thanks for calling my attention to that embarrassing legion of errors.

 

As you can see, what I was aiming for was a small elite force. I briefly considered going back to the drawing board and rebuilding the list- having two Kill Teams both at minimum model count diminishes some of the benefits of bringing a Kill Team; it would be strategically better to take either the full Proteus or the full Fortis rather than half of both, and the points spent on Draxus might be better spent on another Deathwatch unit for better synergy...

 

If I did that, however, I'd have to buy more models. Even if it's sub-optimal, it's important to use the models I have. So that means I'm looking for different ways to beef them up a bit and make sure I burn a few of my starting RP without increasing the model count.

 

What I can do is buy a WL trait for the Watch Master; my fave is optimized priority. 

 

My preference would be to spend RP on my Proteus, but there just aren't as many options as there are for the Fortis. First off, I'll burn an RP for Sanction of the Black Vault so that the Sergeant's stalker bolt rifle can have an Artificer Bolt Cache. I would spend another RP to make this team Indomitus Crusade Veterans; their battle honour would be Rapid Appraisal so that the squad can use special ammo via the free strat.

 

None of those upgrades increases PL, so I can leave my supply limit at 25. I'll save up the last 2 RP. Not as buff as the first build, but I think it's all legal. Really wish I could do more for Draxus- without buffs, she's not spectacular. I could give her Castigate as her power and just use her to inflict MW, but I think I'm going to stick with Mental Interrogation. 

[Qui-Gon]

ICV can only be spent on Elite battlefield role, not Troops. Trust me, I considered that too, but no dice.

 

I understand your desire to stick with your current models, but its tough.

[ThePenitentOne]

Damn.

 

Okay wait- silver linings: I was always somewhat uncomfortable with the Primaris coming in stronger than the Classics (you know, because I'm old and beardy :-) ). Now that the rules conveniently prevented me from acting against my own sense of propriety, I can pivot and claim the moral high ground as if I was making a stand for Old Marines.