Too many characters! And, KT are a bit sad

[Feral_80]

Some thoughts I had after theoryhammering a few lists with the new codex. Not much I can do to test them on the field with real players at the moment, unfortunately, so I'm just curious to hear your thoughts.

 

DW always suffered from the toys vs boys problem but, before, once you learned to specialize your kill teams it was pretty much manageable. Now it seems that all new character goodies represent the new conundrum in our list building. Not here to complain, just interested in hearing how you address this as it is both a great asset and hard to balance.

 

Characters

 

I cannot think of fielding a list without at least these:

- Primaris Chaplain on bike: best guy to carry Beacon Angelis, very good for points, durable and mobile, great partner for other bikes (which you will take anyway), canticles can be amazing. Really hard not to upgrade him with Chapter Command. It's the only good Chaplain we have, but he is *really* good. 

- Librarian: pick your version, but how can we leave home without at least one? Good availability of invulnerable saves around means mortal wounds are one of our vulnerabilities, so this guy is needed at least for protection. Plus, the new discipline is good.

- Company Champion: mandatory upgrade to Chapter Champion: drop in from a pod/Corvus and his reroll charges aura will be invaluable for our melee squads. Plus, he's a great character killer and a steal for his points. Another auto-include, it seems.

 

It's already 3 characters. Plus, (upgraded) Apothecary would seem mandatory esp. if you play Gravis, Terminator, and Bike stuff. A second Psyker, possibly in the form of an Inquisitor, would seem a wonderful addition for better psychic protection, more good powers, and potential CP regeneration. And I am not even considering Assassins which, sadly, ought to be left out at this point.

 

Result? Too much pts in characters, AND the odd thing is that the *least* essential now seem to be the Captain/Watch master! I really cannot find the points for one of this, and I have left them out of my lists so far - which looks super odd.

 

 

Kill Teams

 

Much has been said, but honestly I do not see the point for these anymore, except for combat-squadding and giving obsec and Troop role to good units which normally would not have them. The only KT which seems to have some advantage in the form of models conferring new rules to others is the Phobos one.

Sure, I'll almost only need to include KTs in my list, but they seem to have lost too much in terms of both rules and flavour. Negative bonus for the worst arrangement of rules ever, but this seems consistent with the insane proliferation of Marine datasheets and the terrible layout of the options in most datasheets.

[Debauchery101]

How many games have you played? How many times have you changed up your lists to play completely different? How many times have you played without crutch aka must take units...whether its how you or others see them? Like no bikes and no eradicators..tried an MSU vets in drop pods or rhino/razors list?

 

I've made lists exactly or as close as the codex let's me, that are how I play space wolves, blood angels, salamanders and Raptors.

I find it interesting and most often better for me if I do not play Deathwatch how some players want them to play the same way they used to and how players expect me to play them.

Don't compete against yourself. Make a list. Maybe have a few tweaks ready if youre not 100% on some units. Commit to playing that style even with the shortfalls. You might surprise yourself and your opponent.

Edited November 28, 2020 by Debauchery101

[L30n1d4s]

Well, there is the Kill Team Specialisms that are pretty powerful... with the right upgrade to a Kill Team and the corresponding Battlefield Role active, the specific Kill Team gets full, permanent, beginning-of-8th-Guilliman-level-rerolls-to-Wound against that Battlefield Role.

 

 

Examples of how powerful this can be:

 

 

-Proteus Kill Team with 10 Stormbolters and Stormshields and the "Furor" specialism -- Against a full Phalanx of 20 Necron Warriors, this Kill Team with Character support will average over 20 dead Necron Warriors, killing them completely before they can even get a chance to activate Reanimation Protocols

 

 

-Fortis Kill Team with 5 Intercessors (5 Stalker Bolt Rifles) and 5 Hellblasters (Heavy Plasma Incinerators) with the "Dominatus" specialism -- Using character support, the whole Kill Team will average 5-6 dead enemy Gravis models a turn

 

 

-Spectrus Kill Team with 5 Infiltrators and 5 Eliminators and the Purgatus specialism -- With character support, this squad will kill a 5-6 Wound T4 3+/4++ Character each turn, allowing you to "surgically remove"key parts of your opponent's army (i.e. Chief Apothecary, Weirdboy with Da Jump, Crypteks, Shadowseers, Farseers, Dark Apostles, Tau Commanders, Daemonic Heralds, Priests, Canonesses, AM Officers, etc. etc.

 

 

I am not saying that Kill Teams are OP or that they will dominate the meta, but with the right crafting they can become tremendously powerful tools to help a DW army "unhinge" the critical synergy of an opponent's army.

[Debauchery101]

Leo i agree with you with the exception of the fortis team.

If you are running a lot of Vets theyre taking a lot of roster points. I've found to balance it I just take 10 stalker-cessors and I can use rapid fire strat, combo with doctrine, tactic swap and SIA strats is one of the most lethal combos available to DW. I waxed mortarion in my first turn. Intercessors are just better alone by my playing.

 

I think hellblasters do better with DW using the rapid fire or assault plasma since we can teleport or beacon up close. I also think Plasma inceptors do better because they come with deep strike and 6-18 shots with blast. Also Eradicators..

 

If you are heavy on primaris then stalker vets or a proteus killteam that is specialized is good

 

The vets are beasts because datasheet options and don't need many strats

The primaris can be as good or better via CP but have mostly singular roles with their units

Edited November 28, 2020 by Debauchery101

[Daynga-Zone]

I’m a huge fan of the supplement overall, but I do feel you on the character spam. The first version or two of my list had 6 characters. Watchmaster, jump pack captain, librarian, apothecary, champion and an inquisitor. I like that I want to take all these characters, whereas before with DW I always had an empty HQ slot or two.

 

I’ve cut the inquisitor and switched out the captain for a chaplain on bike. I still have 5 characters but if someone manages to get more than 2-3 for assasinate then my kill teams are probably gone. I’d love to put the inquisitor back in with the X wounds per phase protection that C’Tan and Ghaz get looking likely to become more popular, but bodies are what win primary and I already blow through so much pregame CP with teleportarium and the abundance of WLTs and Relics that we have access to.

 

As far as KTs go, the Fortis do feel pretty bare now. I just run intercessors in normal squads for rapid fire if I bring them. Indomitor KTs have been excellent so far other than having to proxy the heavy intercessors. Proteus or just normal vets are excellent, they can be kitted to be good shooting or melee as well as extremely durable with shields.

 

With DW you have to have a plan in place for what each character or KT is going to do or else you end up going in too many directions at once, however once you figure out what you want your list to do all of the tools are there to build however you want to.

Edited November 29, 2020 by Daynga-Zone

[Claws and Effect]

My Chaplain on Bike is the tankiest character I've ever run in an army. Lots of investment into him, but: 

 

Master of Sanctity

2 WL Traits, one of which is Castellan of the Black Vault, the other being Iron Resolve (he has 9 wounds now)

I usually take the Armor Indomitus for one Relic, and I vary between MC Weapon and Adamantine Mantle for the other. 

Mantra of Strength and Litany of Faith or Catechism of Hate for his Litanies. 

 

He's a beast. My wife played Tyranids against me and spent 10 CP trying to kill him with the Swarmlord. 

 

I run him, a Librarian, and the Company Champion (who I give the Thief of Secrets to ignore invuln saves)