Dante's duty...what is it?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

i floated a possibility in r/bloodangels that dante to focus on his new role of being in charge of half of the imperium, might step aside as chapter master...that caused some...controversy as an idea.

people keep referencing that dante himself said that his duty doesn't end until he dies. to them apparently they think that duty is to the chapter, and the office he holds.
to me that duty is to the imperium, and until he met robute, the best thing he could do to benefit the imperium of man was maintain his office of chapter master until he could no longer do it (aka death).

so in regards to dante and his belief that his duty doesn't end until he dies, how do you interpret that?

Edited December 1, 2020 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Blindhamster]

He'll stay both, he has broad shoulders and seems to try to take whatever burdens he can. Can't see him stepping aside from either role - excepting stuff i'll put in spoilers.

 

He does have those wounds from the swarmlord that literally aren't healing as of darkness in the blood, they're either going to kill him or he'll cross the rubicon... which could also kill him, but he does believe his ultimate duty will be to defend the emperor, hubris though that may be. 

But no, I don't see him stepping down voluntarily from his role, regardless of what other characters in the wider narrative may have suggested he should do.

[Xenith]

There was some tought about this at the time, but as we can see from Roboute, he can lead half the Imperium and still be on 30% of the tournament battlefields.

 

Dante is just too big a part of the lore to be sidelined like that, eventually he'll cross the Rubicon.

[Majkhel]

Dante's duty is to fulfil his duty. EVERY duty. He is simply duty incarnate.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Majkel that's how I see it.

His duty is to the imperium and when someone gives him responsibility greater than just for his chapter and a few moons that will supersede any previous lesser responsibilities

[Xenith]

Majkel that's how I see it.

His duty is to the imperium and when someone gives him responsibility greater than just for his chapter and a few moons that will supersede any previous lesser responsibilities

 

Well that's not exactly what Majkel said, I think.

 

You are saying that Dante will abandon his duty to the Chapter, while he is saying Dante will shoulder the burden of more duty.

[SnorriSnorrison]

Dante’s duty is that to the Blood Angels, and as of “recently”, that of an entire half of the Imperium. He can never abdicate the seat at the Red council in favour of governing, as he’d fail his foremost duty of being a Chapter Master.

 

As Majkhel pointed out, Dante will bear any duty - given to him by the respect of his brothers or a living Primarch, he will bear it all.

 

He has half of the Imperium at his command. That he cannot decide over all the tasks himself is obvious, he’ll have to delegate.

[Captain Caine 24th]

It's interesting to me that this appointment could occur. Functionally he's in charge of legion level strength (actually, probably a few orders of magnitude more), despite the underlying convictions established in the codex astartes that no one chapter become too powerful. The astral claws come to mind as an easy example of the danger in such power.

 

To me this shows incredible trust in Dante's loyalty and capability. Though, I think it fitting as Guillman's brother (and Dante's gene-father) was once appointed the head of the short-lived imperium secondus during the heresy.

 

Lore-wise I think Dante's appointment leaves open lots of uncharted territory in story writing and game development. I would think he'd appoint a centralized structure of leadership under him, similar maybe to ultramarine tetrarchs. https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Tetrarch. Such could be an awesome way to sell new models or develop crusade rules. Plenty of room also for campaigns, rebellions, and schisms. All that is to say, I think it's left open for future books to flesh out.

[Arkangilos]

One thing to keep in mind (unless I’m wrong, correct me), is that IN is in worse shape for communication and travel, which means it will have to be even more feudal than the other half of the Imperium, which means way more delegation.

 

It’s likely that things will remain very decentralized and what changes is Dante’s authority, so he won’t have much more of a real change of duty, but has a greater ability to do what needs to be done.

 

So he won’t directly run an administration, but if there is an issue he has legal authority to solve it. And he can intervene with impunity when he needs to.

[Cleon]

It's interesting to me that this appointment could occur. Functionally he's in charge of legion level strength (actually, probably a few orders of magnitude more), despite the underlying convictions established in the codex astartes that no one chapter become too powerful. The astral claws come to mind as an easy example of the danger in such power.

An interesting point, does this mean he has more Marines under his direct authority than any other Marine (not Primarch) in the history of the imperium?

[Indefragable]

 

It's interesting to me that this appointment could occur. Functionally he's in charge of legion level strength (actually, probably a few orders of magnitude more), despite the underlying convictions established in the codex astartes that no one chapter become too powerful. The astral claws come to mind as an easy example of the danger in such power.

An interesting point, does this mean he has more Marines under his direct authority than any other Marine (not Primarch) in the history of the imperium?

 

 

We would have to get stats to compare....pre-discovery of many Primarchs, each Legion was led by a "normal" Space Marine, though the Legions were not at full size, that's still like 50,000-100,000 for some. 

 

At Yarant Abaddon commanded a pretty big force, though I don't think we have specific numbers. Likewise, Abandon led the "top Z flank" attack in The Solar War which was pretty darn big, but again we don't have hard numbers for comparison. 

 

In short, yes in essence to your question, but mainly for lack of hard data otherwise. Anyway you cut it though it's a big deal, all the more so because it's post-Codex Astartes era. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

It's interesting to me that this appointment could occur. Functionally he's in charge of legion level strength (actually, probably a few orders of magnitude more), despite the underlying convictions established in the codex astartes that no one chapter become too powerful. The astral claws come to mind as an easy example of the danger in such power.

An interesting point, does this mean he has more Marines under his direct authority than any other Marine (not Primarch) in the history of the imperium?

 

yes any space marine that's not a primarch that steps foot into imperium nihilus answers to dante.

[Captain Caine 24th]

One thing to keep in mind (unless I’m wrong, correct me), is that IN is in worse shape for communication and travel, which means it will have to be even more feudal than the other half of the Imperium, which means way more delegation.

This is the impression I had too, though I've got a lot of catching up to do as the lore is much more frequently updated in recent years. To me the situation is extremely bleak. I think Feudal is a great word for it. 

 

As to the numbers under Dante, it's typically said there are 1000 space marine chapters in the imperium overall. On one hand numbers are always fuzzy with imperial bureaucracy (...or lies and propaganda) it could be 500 or 4000. I wouldn't be surprised one bit if an enterprising inquisitor or rogue trader kept a secret chapter for his own purposes. Certainly a rather large amount of primaris marines popped up out of nowhere. On the other hand, every chapter is supposed to be providing a gene sample/tithe for verification it hasn't degraded or gone heretical. So somebody ought to know the numbers (Cawl maybe). Now, how many chapters are on Dante's side of the Imperium? If 1/10th of all chapters are under him, that's a whole lot of marines. I'd be eager to see the lore developed on that. But, the situation is very bleak. I suspect whole chapters were lost in the violence of the psychic awakening. Knowing the imperium, some chapters might have gone extinct 7000 years ago without anyone knowing, some "chapters" might have nothing but 10 marines left (kind of like lamenters), some are excommunicatus (knights of blood), many are probably lost in the warp, and some aren't altogether social or talkative (space sharks wherever they are). He's got a lot to do. Huge issues across the whole board. So, I think delegation will be a big thing, and it need not be mutually exclusive with his term as chapter master. I think he'll stay blood angels.

 

As to Dante personally, being 1300 years old or something, the lore has really put him in a place of eternal war, and being far beyond tired. It seems death is the only release. And that is the thrust of the issue for him, I think, more than the manner in which he will handle his new appointment. And, with the prophecy of a golden warrior, that seems to identify him (maybe) it seems like Games workshop is setting him up for death. Though, I hope not.  Still, even without a new model, GW has done a lot of fan service for the old man. I really liked the book 'Dante.' As it pertains to his thoughts on duty and death I think you should read it, if you haven't already. 

[Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla]

One thing to keep in mind (unless I’m wrong, correct me), is that IN is in worse shape for communication and travel, which means it will have to be even more feudal than the other half of the Imperium, which means way more delegation.

 

It’s likely that things will remain very decentralized and what changes is Dante’s authority, so he won’t have much more of a real change of duty, but has a greater ability to do what needs to be done.

 

So he won’t directly run an administration, but if there is an issue he has legal authority to solve it. And he can intervene with impunity when he needs to.

 

In practice Dante's reach is limited but Baal is currently being reconstructed into second capital of the Imperium, so there is some ideal of centralised governement.

 

It's interesting to me that this appointment could occur. Functionally he's in charge of legion level strength (actually, probably a few orders of magnitude more), despite the underlying convictions established in the codex astartes that no one chapter become too powerful. The astral claws come to mind as an easy example of the danger in such power.

 

To me this shows incredible trust in Dante's loyalty and capability. Though, I think it fitting as Guillman's brother (and Dante's gene-father) was once appointed the head of the short-lived imperium secondus during the heresy.

 

Lore-wise I think Dante's appointment leaves open lots of uncharted territory in story writing and game development. I would think he'd appoint a centralized structure of leadership under him, similar maybe to ultramarine tetrarchs. https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Tetrarch. Such could be an awesome way to sell new models or develop crusade rules. Plenty of room also for campaigns, rebellions, and schisms. All that is to say, I think it's left open for future books to flesh out.

Well, in theory as a regent he probably has some undefined authority over all the chapters in IN bu there are no sings in the fluff that he shows much interest in large scale coordination or concentration of Astartes forces. On the contrary, the successors were allowed to leave Baal without any instructions and to do whatever they want and Dante himself is so scared of accumulating power that he abhorres idea of BA possessing 3 Battle Barges. So overall he seems more interested in oversight over "mortal" branch than Astartes.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

One thing to keep in mind (unless I’m wrong, correct me), is that IN is in worse shape for communication and travel, which means it will have to be even more feudal than the other half of the Imperium, which means way more delegation.

This is the impression I had too, though I've got a lot of catching up to do as the lore is much more frequently updated in recent years. To me the situation is extremely bleak. I think Feudal is a great word for it.

 

As to the numbers under Dante, it's typically said there are 1000 space marine chapters in the imperium overall. On one hand numbers are always fuzzy with imperial bureaucracy (...or lies and propaganda) it could be 500 or 4000. I wouldn't be surprised one bit if an enterprising inquisitor or rogue trader kept a secret chapter for his own purposes. Certainly a rather large amount of primaris marines popped up out of nowhere. On the other hand, every chapter is supposed to be providing a gene sample/tithe for verification it hasn't degraded or gone heretical. So somebody ought to know the numbers (Cawl maybe). Now, how many chapters are on Dante's side of the Imperium? If 1/10th of all chapters are under him, that's a whole lot of marines. I'd be eager to see the lore developed on that. But, the situation is very bleak. I suspect whole chapters were lost in the violence of the psychic awakening. Knowing the imperium, some chapters might have gone extinct 7000 years ago without anyone knowing, some "chapters" might have nothing but 10 marines left (kind of like lamenters), some are excommunicatus (knights of blood), many are probably lost in the warp, and some aren't altogether social or talkative (space sharks wherever they are). He's got a lot to do. Huge issues across the whole board. So, I think delegation will be a big thing, and it need not be mutually exclusive with his term as chapter master. I think he'll stay blood angels.

 

As to Dante personally, being 1300 years old or something, the lore has really put him in a place of eternal war, and being far beyond tired. It seems death is the only release. And that is the thrust of the issue for him, I think, more than the manner in which he will handle his new appointment. And, with the prophecy of a golden warrior, that seems to identify him (maybe) it seems like Games workshop is setting him up for death. Though, I hope not. Still, even without a new model, GW has done a lot of fan service for the old man. I really liked the book 'Dante.' As it pertains to his thoughts on duty and death I think you should read it, if you haven't already.

Where do people get this 1000 chapters number? Is it the quote about the original legions being broken up into 1000 chapters?

 

Considering the number of know UM successors 1000 seems rather low...

[BrainFireBob]

Longstanding fluff, from nearly every Marine codex ever. Approximately, pre-Primaris, 1000 chapters of 1000 marines, or 1 million marines spread super-thin.

 

There were 9 great gene-line hosts of approx 100000 each made by Cowl, so they basically doubled Firstborn.

Edited December 3, 2020 by BrainFireBob

[Arkangilos]

Considering the number of know UM successors 1000 seems rather low...

The fluff throughout the tradition said 1000 chapters guard the galaxy and make war against the enemies. Most of them are ultramarine successors because they have more reliable gene seed and less parental baggage.

[Majkhel]

Literary first words on page 8 of the current SM codex ;)
And it is now: "believed to be over 1000"
 

[Indefragable]

1000 chapters of ~1000 Space Marines (on paper...) has been established lore for as long as I've known about 40k. 

 

30k fluff has each Legion being different in size at their peak, with the smallest (Thousand Sons, White Scars, Salamanders) being 80,000-90,000 total Astartes while the Ultramarines got over 200,000 and the Word Bearers were close to that (on paper, though the events of the early Heresy including the Shadow Crusade heavily imply they had far more than reported, perhaps 300k-400k). The Dark Angels were up there at 200,000 even after the 3 Rangda Xenocides which its hinted may have halved their numbers  (really puts things in perspective both how deadly those were and how I Legion was really the main force for so long). 

 

The Blood Angels were steadily around 120,000 Astartes post-reunification with Sanguinius. 

 

Details here if anyone cares.

 

Of course every Legion suffered like 50% + casualties over the course of the HH....

 

*************

 

Is Dante the second-most powerful single commander in the Imperium now, behind Guilliman himself? 

 

The Imperial Senate is still in charge, but of course any Primarch automatically becomes a de facto leader, and the very nature of the Imperium/Galaxy allows for particularly capable (for better and worse) leaders to take on out-sized roles. 

 

 

Edit: tweaked numbers based on firmer data. 

Edited December 3, 2020 by Indefragable

[Helias_Tancred]

I'm with Xenith on this! He will cross the rubicon primaris and live on in the lore and game.

[Shaezus]

Maybe he'll be interred in a dreadnought and they'll bring the assault jump pack dread from 30K to 40K

[Indefragable]

Disclaimer: 

 

I'm a Dante nut. He's my favorite character in the whole setting (Sanguinius is 2nd and Raldoron is 3rd, with Mephy 4th). 

 

...that being said I hope he lives and carries on. 

 

Why?

There's a certain grimdark beauty to someone living as long as he has and continuing to live. Having to resist the desire to die in a blaze of glory, ​like his entire family line is known for, is a poetic and epic battle in and of itself. From a certain perspective, there's almost a Lieutenant Dan quality to his arc. 

 

Think of the heartbreaking stories of the reunions of WWII or even WWI veterans that dwindle over the years until only a sole man is left. Now imagine that sole man fights in every single war that comes up for the next hundred years. Yet every-time a new conflict arises, he not only laces up his boots, but actively inspires others and leads them to fight on. Beneath the jokes and memes about Dante being all "I'm too old for this :cuss" and not bothering to learn the names of any new BA since they're all just a bunch of damn kids and GET OFF MY LAWN SAND DUNE ... is such a brutal tragedy of loss and disconnection in its own way. On its own such a tale of a soldier living too long is compelling in and of itself, but add in the Blood Angels elements such as the lineage of noble self-sacrifice, the need to be a force-multiplying symbol of hope, and the role of duty and  purpose at all costs....and you have the utter DUDE that is Dante. 

 

Again, I will be the first to admit I'm biased, but killing of Dante is the easy choice. Having him live on is the courageous move. 

 

 

"It is easier to find men who will die, than to find those who are willing to endure pain with patience."

-Julius Caesar

[Blindhamster]

well summed up and the reason Dante is just better than any other character. Personally, I prefer Raldaron to Sanguinius, he had similar qualities to Dante, which was obviously intentional, we just dont know how long he lived.

[Shaezus]

Sanguinius is of course something else, but I'd never before considered the similarity between Raldoron and Dante. I'd argue it isn't intentional, it's just what happens when you have a Blood Angel's character who is exceptional, with a reputation outside of his own legion / chapter, a cool - headed and quick - thinking tactician with more composure than some characters in other more "stable" legions. Sometimes the rageness in BA lore can be a bit cliche, so it's refreshing when authors put it to one side. This is why I really like anything with Raldoron, besides the Dante novels and oddly, the Mephiston trilogy.

[Blindhamster]

Being relaxed and coolheaded in a chapter (or legion) of hot heads is indeed a good thing. I also like with Raldaron that he has the simple armour despite his station (although the model did bling him up more than his description implied).

 

But anyway yeah, back to the original topic, Dante wasn't "made" for the role, he only became chapter master out of a necessity for it. He just stepped up to the new burden and refused to fail. Now he's one of, if not the most well known chapter master in the Imperium.

Similarly, he never asked for the role Guilliman gave him, he was never trained for it, but he once again accepts the additional burden. I don't see him ever setting aside the chapter master (lord commander) role despite the new responsibilities, it's just meant that he has more to do and less time to rest, despite the fact that he is literally described as tired, almost unthinkable for a marine.

He'll likely cross the Rubicon eventually, because yeah, I don't see them actually killing Dante off as he's far too popular a character. BUT, it wont happen for a long while still probably, we need a proper jump infantry primaris wave before it'll happen as I don't believe he'll appear without a jump pack, to be honest I'm intrigued to see what a new version of his armour would even look like honestly. If they kill off any of our characters, it'd be more likely to be lemartes tbh.