My 9th Edition BA thoughts and experiences.

[Morticon]

Greetings all!! 

 

Soooo,  I don't feel there's a lot that's going to be said here that hasn't been repeated in some of the MULTITUDE of online sites, blogs, vlogs, forums etc. - including this one-  but I wanted to make a thread with my observations overall as well as some feedback from games. 

 

So.... I figured I'd throw my 2cents in anyway.

 

 

Overall, I'm happy. Not "really" happy.  Not "super" happy, just happy! But, not reaaaally in any way disappointed. 

 

My rating would be a solid B+ for the overall playability and strength and potential of the new codex and an A+ for overall codex power/playability in relation to past BA codicies within their edition context. 

 

I do believe there were some missed opportunities and some oddities and frustrating things, but  for the most there is far more good than bad. 

 

THE GOOD 

 

Base Marines- The fact we are again tied to the core marine dex (like we were in the Angels of Death and the 3rd Ed codex) means that we benefit from the overall strength and flexibility of the basic marines.  

 

No silly exclusions from certain units (despite those units now being toned down greatly) in addition to access to the SM Psychic powers, Warlord Traits and Relics is just excellent considering the great options they have available. 

At the end of the day, because the core marine dex is so good, we can only improve on that. 

 

Chapter Tactic -  Our Chapter Tactic is strong.  The +1 to wound-style dynamic has been part of the BA playstyle for decades - starting with Furious Charge (+1 to Strength and Initiative) back in the day.  Gaining this back after losing the equivalent was a wonderfully welcome return to the BA path established so firmly for so long.

 

However, with Transhuman being quite ubiquitous and more and more units gaining a Transhuman like ability, the real benefit of this tactic is likely to decrease over time. 

 

Furthermore, the +1 to advance and assault is really nice and fluffy, BUT where BA need it most (in a Descent of Angels style attack from reserve) we're better off with the Chaplain for his +2 to really ensure this. So, basically any chapter can still do what we can.   Having said this, we do have the benefit of access to a lot of reroll charge options.  Additionally, we have the benefit of not needing a Chaplain to be near our striking units, and as a result give us more tactical flexibility.   Couple this with the BA secondary and we're in a solid playstyle spot! So its a win for me.

 

Savage Echoes on top of this, with access to it earlier on through Adpative Strat is great, and really welcome. 

 

At the start of 8th (maybe even late 7th to be honest! But think it was 8th) I wrote an open letter to GW about what I considered to be the BA marine issue - namely that they just didnt do enough in combat - i detailed the reasons and support and basically said that poor number of attacks was a massive reason for this.  Wishes came true when we were granted Shock Assault some time later, and then a few years after that saw Savage Echoes.  All of these +1s allowed us to finally make a dent in combat where as before we were really bouncing for the most part. 

 

HQ OPTIONS -  Thanks to  our traits and relics and Special Chars we have some exceptional HQ options available to us - each one influencing our playstyle to some degree.   This really makes the BA a "dark horse" type of army where we are likely to see a strong variety of builds and lists - each with a strong chance of doing well in the right hands. 

 

LIBBY DREAD - Despite losing the sarcophagus and a little more range on wings, this guy is really good. With access to up to two traits you can really make this bad boy something special.  Iron Resolve for example can put this guy up to 9W and a 6+++.  Foresight is a great one to help with those much needed saves and rerolls of clutch attacks.  Also, the 1CP spiritual might power for a 3rd power is PHENOM if he's been upgraded to a Chief. He comes out more than Mephy then, but he's arguably a lot tougher.  

 

 

THE MEH - (because I dont think there's much thats "BAD")

 

Thankfully,, im of the opinion that there's actually not too much that is legitimately bad that is specific to the BA dex.

 

Vehicles: While BA suffers from the Base Marine problem with vehicles, that's a generic 9th problem, rather than a BA issue. 

 

Psychic Powers: Likewise, the lamenting of the massive nerfing of the BA psychic discipline is a little over-done - when we literally just lose 6" of movement  (and flight) in the subsequent movement phase - and we all knew this was coming. The loss of 3" extra charge on Quickening is unfortunate and frustrating, but the ability to RR charges, get extra attacks AND have it go off on a 6 rather than a 7 is great.  

 

Descent of Angels: One of the most painful "bad" big bads (in my opinion) is the loss of 3d6" charge. It really made our 8" charge super reliable.  Now, we have an 8" rerolllable - which is not nearly the same thing (though does combo nicely with the Chaplain) .- along with +1 to hit- so any of our jump lads sporting Hammers or Fists will see some great returns.  All for a CP less. So, while it burns, its not something we cannot adjust to.  

 

Upon Wings of Fire: Another big one noted is this change,   The immediate usefulness is not as good as it once was and this is a given.  However, two really strong things remain.  Firstly we can do it in combat like before and secondly it's only 1cp.  This feels more like a sidegrade.  It reduces our ability to alpha strike, but it really offers a lot of flexibility.

 

Dante:  Games Workshop just cannot get this guy right. However, this current iteration is possibly one of the best we've seen since 4th PDF codex. Dante's fluff constantly and consistently presents him as one of the best tacticians in the imperium and this is hardly ever represented rules wise.  He has a paltry 1CP extra - which if he's your warlord, you'll be spending on giving another character a better trait anyway!! 3 other marine characters give more CP than him for their inclusion, and while his WLT goes a little further in showing his in game tactical prowess, I feel the mark is just missed once again. The quirky rule of his free Epic Deed is also a nice touch, but with the only options for him being Angel's Sacrifice and Only in Death, its a touch lack-lustre - albeit not horrid.   So, so, so close to being a real representative and embodiment of the BA, but juuust a little off.  Once more though, he's by no means bad. 

 

And on the subject of the things GW cannot get right....

 

THE UGLY: 

 

Baal Pred:  The baal was great in 5th ed.  Maybe even a bit of 6th. They've come a LONG way with upping the main gun range and damage and the flamer range too.  But,......its still in this weird "dont care" spot.  2d6 shots for the cannon would have seen this thing being considered.  Now....for what?

 

FURIOSO:  Why play him? In 6th and 7th this bad boy was AV13.  Most things that were AV13 went to T8.  Not the Furioso!!  He's not really got much (anything?) going for him that the DC dread  doesnt have.  Again - is he "bad"? No. Not *reaaaally* - but ...he's just not something you're going to take over a DC dread - who you're unlikely to take anyway :/   If I were GW and I wanted to sell Dread Kits, (and they probably dont need to anymore, hence their midlding rules) - I would have made the Lucius Pattern pods 35 points.  That simple change will open up a variety of builds.  And given the afore mentioned issues with vehicles, its unlikely to even be particularly powerful! Just provide some variation. 

 

Sanguinary Ancient:  RIP Banner boy.   125 points for an average character :/   Nah.  

 

 

THE WINNERS:

 

 

Death Company: 

 

I think the DC are the big winners in this edition.  It's a really nice move on GWs part taking us right back to Angels of Death codex and the cover.  2nd edition BA was arguably defined by their inclusion of the DC and 3rd ed,/4th ed with the infantry of ours falling  to the rage mechanic, we had to include them. Making them a viable option, with useable fluffy side rules and solid strats is a really, really nice shout out.  So huge props there. 

 

Not only are they fluffy and representative, theyre bloody strong.  

 

Forlorn Fury is now useable more than once (for now) allowing for more than one squad of them, and the chance to use adaptive strat is solid.  They also fixed the missing attack issue in the DC intercessors profile- which is great- meaning they can comfortably get 8 attacks each when attacking another squad of marines -or more if theyre rushing into orks.  Expect to see some very competitive BA lists bringing a unit or two of DC.  

 

 

*******



So....those are my thoughts! 

I will report with more games and pictures when I can !! 
 

 

 

[Morticon]

DC CAPTAIN BUILDS: 

 

I've been looking at a variety of DC Captain builds.  The codex allows for some AMAZING combinations that are varied and fun - but i think players are going to start gravitating towards the most effective and efficient role they want. 

 

 

Ultimate Aggro:  The build to maximise amount of attacks and damage output.  (135 points)

 

DC Captain

 Pair of Lightning Claws

 Imperium's Sword

 Artisan of War (MasterCrafted)

 

** With a Relic Slot of your choice still free **

 

This guy puts out 10 attacks at S5, AP, D2 attacks  in Aslt.Doc. Its devastating. 

 

 

 

The All-Rounder :  GREAT offensive output and GREAT defensive ability.

 

 

DC Captain

 Relic Blade

 Imperium's Sword

 Storm Shield

Gift of Foresight

Armour Indomitus

 

This takes our guy to a 1+/4++/6+++ with a reroll of one failed save (not armour save) in addition to the one free hit and wound reroll. With 6wounds this makes him really fantastic. On top of that, you also get 8x S8, AP4, D2 attacks in Aslt.Doc mode- which, with the two rerolls will see you juuuuust slightly trailing the total damage output of the other build above, but with a little more survivability over the long haul. 

 

 

I have a feeling we're going to see these builds of Caps dominate.  You MAY even see far more people going towards Flesh Tearers to maximise the damage output- which they seem to do very well. 

Edited December 1, 2020 by Morticon

[CCE1981]

How is the Sanguinary Ancient bad?

 

He’s the same equivalent point value as a Company Ancient upgraded to Chapter Ancient and given a Jump Pack, FOR FREE he gets a Master-Crafted Power Sword/Axe equivalent, a 2+ Armor Save, an 18” AP-1 Assualt2 bolter, -1 to hit in melee, and +1 to hit when within 6” of ANY Blood Angels Warlord, make him a Warlord and it’s always on for him. Then you can buy him a Relic of which Wrath of Baal, Icon of the Angel. Adamantium Mantel, Artifcer Armor, and Master-Crafted Weapon are all good choices. Sorry I see this guy and think he’s awesome!

 

I want to run him with a 10-man Sanguinary Guard unit and a Jump Pack Master of Sanctity or Jump Pack Lieutenant with Teeth of Terra and Armor Indomitus.

Edited December 1, 2020 by CCE1981

[CCE1981]

I am not sure you Lightning Claw guys adds up. For one it’s no linger a pair of Lightning Claws it’s two. Space Wolves have a special condition that allows them to upgrade two Lightning Claws to Frost Claws but Blood Angels don’t, so 9 attacks would hit at d2 and one with d1. Instead keep him cheep, give him Teeth of Terra for +3 attacks instead of +2 with Lightning Claws, they are now all +1 str and the same AP-2 d2. Then he can get a Storm Shield, and maybe Artificer Armor. He’s now just about everything you need in strength and attacks. Remember he can’t be your Warlord, do he can only get one Warlord Trait.

[Karhedron]

Sanguinary Priest is also really great in this edition. We are one of only 2 Chapters with the ability to give a Chief Apothecary a mobility upgrade (the other being the DA Ravenwing Apothecary). We all know that Selfless Healer works best when stacked with high-value, high-wound models. Our Priest can have a Jump Pack and happily keep up with our Sanguinary Guard, Inceptors, MM Attack bikes etc. The ability to heal 2 units of 3 wounds AND revive a fallen model is just awesome.

 

The only weakness is that he is a bit squishy and low on damage output but our Warlord Traits and Relics can be used to overcome this if you don't mind burning a few CPs pre-game. The best build I have seen so far is probably the following:

 

Sanguinary Priest: Warlord - Selfless Healer

Relic of the Chapter - Teeth of Terra

Angel Exemplar - Artisan of War - Artificer Armour

 

This makes the guy go from 5 attacks with a chainsword (on the charge) to 7 S5 Ap-2, 2D attacks with Red Thirst on top. He is also reasonable durable with a 2+/5++/6+++ save. He can quite happily hang out with the Sanguinary Guard in this configuration, buffing their attacks, healing and resurrecting them and pitching into melee.

 

If you plan to use him to heal firepower units like Inceptors or bikes, you can probably do without the Teeth. I would probably give him Armour Indomintus in this case as it is a bit more durable.

[Shaezus]

Agree with your take on the new dex, Morticon. There's some bad with the good - at least some things never change there, eh - but ultimately it's all good

 

Seconding what CCE1981 says about the sang ancient; with the new board size and terrain rules I've started my San guard on the table every game. This means the sang ancient with wrath of Baal is more reliable than a chaplain's charge litany for making a charge. His +1 to hit in melee is effectively a free mass of doom on my sanguard, every battle round. He's far from shabby with his stats and free power fist / axe upgrade and crucially he has sanguinary guard keyword, which opens up use of chalice overflowing then angels sacrifice.

 

Seems we both missed the warlord restriction on death company characters. And the fact that each claw is a separate weapon so cannot both benefit from MC. Think maybe I'll keep 1 claw for the reroll wounds and give him imperiums sword

[Karhedron]

Seconding what CCE1981 says about the sang ancient; with the new board size and terrain rules I've started my San guard on the table every game. This means the sang ancient with wrath of Baal is more reliable than a chaplain's charge litany for making a charge. His +1 to hit in melee is effectively a free mass of doom on my sanguard, every battle round. He's far from shabby with his stats and free power fist / axe upgrade and crucially he has sanguinary guard keyword, which opens up use of chalice overflowing then angels sacrifice.

Sadly I don't think the Sanguinary Ancient helps with Charges. The "Wrath of Ball" specifies Normal, Advance or Fallback moves. It's doesn't help at all with charges.  Chalice Overflowing is Sanguinary Priest only I think.

 

For me, the big miss in the Codex is that we have no way I can see to gain the Advance + Charge ability. We are supposed to be one of the fastest Chapters yet we have no way to gain this ability while Space Wolves have multiple ways to gain this ability. 

[Morticon]

How is the Sanguinary Ancient bad?

 

He’s the same equivalent point value as a Company Ancient upgraded to Chapter Ancient and given a Jump Pack, FOR FREE he gets a Master-Crafted Power Sword/Axe equivalent, a 2+ Armor Save, an 18” AP-1 Assualt2 bolter, -1 to hit in melee, and +1 to hit when within 6” of ANY Blood Angels Warlord, make him a Warlord and it’s always on for him. Then you can buy him a Relic of which Wrath of Baal, Icon of the Angel. Adamantium Mantel, Artifcer Armor, and Master-Crafted Weapon are all good choices. Sorry I see this guy and think he’s awesome!

 

I want to run him with a 10-man Sanguinary Guard unit and a Jump Pack Master of Sanctity or Jump Pack Lieutenant with Teeth of Terra and Armor Indomitus.

 

All valid points - but i think his cost to benefit ratio is a little out compared to other HQ choices.  Id rather not be spending the points on him.  I think his basic weapon and basic armour save are a great boon.  But his ws3 (unless WL) is meh.  And if he's WL, then you need to try pump his wounds somehow- armour indom is nice, but then his benefit of the 2+ is moot. 

I dont think he's good.  I dont think he's bad. Just a little "why bother" for me.   I think what he offers is better replicated elsewhere for less points. 

 

Would you not rather have another HQ? 

 

edit:  perhaps a shift out of "bad" needed- and maybe im just hung up on the 5+++ loss!! 

Edited December 1, 2020 by Morticon

[Morticon]

Remember he can’t be your Warlord, do he can only get one Warlord Trait.

 

Ouchies!!!!  Missed that. Good call.   

[Shaezus]

 

Seconding what CCE1981 says about the sang ancient; with the new board size and terrain rules I've started my San guard on the table every game. This means the sang ancient with wrath of Baal is more reliable than a chaplain's charge litany for making a charge. His +1 to hit in melee is effectively a free mass of doom on my sanguard, every battle round. He's far from shabby with his stats and free power fist / axe upgrade and crucially he has sanguinary guard keyword, which opens up use of chalice overflowing then angels sacrifice.

 

Sadly I don't think the Sanguinary Ancient helps with Charges. The "Wrath of Ball" specifies Normal, Advance or Fallback moves. It's doesn't help at all with charges. :( Chalice Overflowing is Sanguinary Priest only I think.

 

For me, the big miss in the Codex is that we have no way I can see to gain the Advance + Charge ability. We are supposed to be one of the fastest Chapters yet we have no way to gain this ability while Space Wolves have multiple ways to gain this ability.

If you are deployed on the battlefield, the extra 2" move means you have 2" less to charge

 

Way handy also for hiding behind LoS and reaching objectives / charges on turn 1

[Karhedron]

The reason the Sanguinary Ancient was such a stalwart of 8th edition lists was the Standard of Sacrifice. Without this, he loses a lot of his lustre. One unit getting +1 to-Hit is nice but nothing earth-shaking, As Mort points out, that effect is easily replicated elsewhere in the codex. He has a nice selection of minor buffs but they don't synergise particularly well with anything and don't seem to invite any particular builds. He's not bad but he's not great either and 125 points is quite steep.

[CCE1981]

 

How is the Sanguinary Ancient bad?

 

He’s the same equivalent point value as a Company Ancient upgraded to Chapter Ancient and given a Jump Pack, FOR FREE he gets a Master-Crafted Power Sword/Axe equivalent, a 2+ Armor Save, an 18” AP-1 Assualt2 bolter, -1 to hit in melee, and +1 to hit when within 6” of ANY Blood Angels Warlord, make him a Warlord and it’s always on for him. Then you can buy him a Relic of which Wrath of Baal, Icon of the Angel. Adamantium Mantel, Artifcer Armor, and Master-Crafted Weapon are all good choices. Sorry I see this guy and think he’s awesome!

 

I want to run him with a 10-man Sanguinary Guard unit and a Jump Pack Master of Sanctity or Jump Pack Lieutenant with Teeth of Terra and Armor Indomitus.

 

All valid points - but i think his cost to benefit ratio is a little out compared to other HQ choices.  Id rather not be spending the points on him.  I think his basic weapon and basic armour save are a great boon.  But his ws3 (unless WL) is meh.  And if he's WL, then you need to try pump his wounds somehow- armour indom is nice, but then his benefit of the 2+ is moot. 

I dont think he's good.  I dont think he's bad. Just a little "why bother" for me.   I think what he offers is better replicated elsewhere for less points. 

 

Would you not rather have another HQ? 

 

 

I don't really have to make that choice. He's an elite and I can take 6 of those, I am limited to three HQs unless I spend even more CPs to get more.   I am also choosing Warlord traits and Relics to suit my Army, and if he makes the grade cool.  I can align him with Sanguinary Guard and get them where I want with him adding plenty to the group and set up another threat somewhere else. 

 

No worries about missing stuff both the Lightning Claws and the DC Warlord thing require like 3 different pages open at the same time to see it. With the 40k app being utter garbage that would allude to it being legal, and old rules peaking their way in it's easy for it to happen.  I come here to discuss that sort of thing , help others out and try to figure out if I missed anything as well.

[Charlo]

 

You MAY even see far more people going towards Flesh Tearers to maximise the damage output- which they seem to do very well. 

 

See now this is an interesting concept, especially when you factor in this...

 

 

Furthermore, the +1 to advance and assault is really nice and fluffy, BUT where BA need it most (in a Descent of Angels style attack from reserve) we're better off with the Chaplain for his +2 to really ensure this. 

 

For the sake of bringing a Chaplain to improve your deep strike charge odds anyway, the extra AP from Flesh Tearers could really start to add up. It combos really well with Savage Echoes and other sources of extra attacks aswell, plus with it now comboing with the Assault Docrtine and presumably Red Rampage, something like Death Company will put even Genestealers to shame.

 

I think Seth more than makes up for the loss of the other special characters, seeing as he's got enough attacks to make a squad of Berzerker's look twice. Not to mention I think there is certainly play in the FT relics too, easily buffing a Sanguinary Priests combat abilities or using a Terminator Captain to utterly aggro the crap out of people.

 

Perhaps there is a Red-Tide style list where you focus on the best body to number of attacks ratio hoping for that utterly bloody late game?

[Morticon]

I don't really have to make that choice. He's an elite and I can take 6 of those, I am limited to three HQs unless I spend even more CPs to get more.   I am also choosing Warlord traits and Relics to suit my Army, and if he makes the grade cool.  I can align him with Sanguinary Guard and get them where I want with him adding plenty to the group and set up another threat somewhere else. 

 

 

 

 

For me it was less about the slots and more about the points investment.  I would use those 125 on my second HQ and then buff out the army in another way. 

 

When you get him up and running in some games- please post them! Would be cool to see. 

[CCE1981]

With my schedule it’ll be awhile before I can get any games in. Being “essential personnel” basically means I have to do my job and make up for nonessential workers that aren’t working for no extra pay....they have to pay the nonessential personnel somehow.