Company Veterans...don't play games without them

[TiguriusX]

Just discovered a must have combination from the basic marine codex

 

The company veteran unit has a rule called BODYGUARD

 

It appears to be an unbreakable character protection mechanic that basically makes you immune to ranged attacks

 

Snipers and such only ignore look out sir...haven't seen rules that expressly ignore bodyguard yet

 

 

You put the bodyguard behind a wall where he is never going to die and your characters on the OTHER side of the wall exposed to danger and nothing will happen to you

 

Other armies have to worry about being charged and killed in melee but we are SW and laugh at people charging us

 

 

How do you maximize this?

 

See that objective that requires you to stand in the open?  Put a character on it with bodyguards in the closest terrain.  

 

Want a turn 1 charge?  Line your HQs up on the edge of your DZ and have the bodyguards in cover nearby.  Now you can charge ahead full speed without fear of being shot if you go 2nd.  

 

Ever play against AdMech with those stupid Serberys Raiders sniping you turn 1 with wrath of mars to auto kill any character?  Not anymore!    

 

 

It is the PERFECT synergy piece with SW strengths and love of characters

 

 

Bjorn and Murderfang can get crazy boosts in defense from this trick and NOBODY is shifting them off an objective if they can't be shot...has me thinking of lists where I include them again...take multiple units of company vets and drop them around the board...I have 2 seats to spare in my LF drop pod

 

 

I am including at least 2 with stormshields and making it an auto include unit from here on out.

[Bryan Blaire]

So the SM version of the terrible Tau drone rule? Great. That will definitely earn players some friends. :lol:

 

Interesting find, Tigirius, but that definitely needs an Errata - way too "gamey" for play, needs some kind of "visible to the firing unit" type interaction.

[Gherrick]

Honestly, without having access to jumppacks, a move of 6" won't keep them within 3" of my characters. At best, they could be used with the judicar to keep him safer as they all are chasing after our faster models (TWC, bikes).

[TiguriusX]

Honestly, without having access to jumppacks, a move of 6" won't keep them within 3" of my characters. At best, they could be used with the judicar to keep him safer as they all are chasing after our faster models (TWC, bikes).

They don't need to stay close every turn

 

Think of them as a force field keeping you safe until you leave the area

 

Murderfang has 8" move and rerolling charges

 

Company vets let him stand in clear ground and prepare to launch at a target next turn with 0 fear of being shot

 

That creates a 12" or greater threat radius for a melee monster. Most maps have middle objectives well within that distance

 

 

Even greater for a TWC or bike lord with hunter. Now you have a wide open launch point for a 20" or greater threat radius

 

Without the company vet trick you need to keep hidden behind LOS reducing your threat range or sacrifice units for LOS protection

[Dark Shepherd]

Its definitely good for turn 1 protection if youre going second but youre potentially stuck with a points sink in the elite slot if they cant be got into the game too

 

Keeping them out of sight near advanced objectives would be very hard to be relied on too

[TiguriusX]

Here are some visuals on how you can maximize it in game

Actual maps I play in my online leagues

Example 1...grab a midboard objective

Map-Battlelines

I have an upcoming match against an ork army with battlewagons

I can block a lane with a DP and stand here with characters that won't be shot. Easy steal of an objective that is otherwise in a REAL dangerous location

Example 2

Safely hold mid field

Map-Sweep and Clear

Rites of war on the biker and armor of russ

I have obsec and can HI into anything coming near

Put a judiciar behind wall with company vets and now I can stop 2 units while murderfang and TH bike lord beat on them first

[Karhedron]

Its definitely good for turn 1 protection if youre going second but youre potentially stuck with a points sink in the elite slot if they cant be got into the game too

If they survive their immediate duty as meatshields, you can use them to perform Action-based Secondaries such as Deploy Scramblers rather than force a more valuable unit to miss out on their shooting/melee.

 

Then they can hot-foot it into the midfield as there are bound to be some Characters they can protect.

 

Also, if you take a Wolf Lord (Captain), then the Veterans don't take up a slot, they are free. Also if you take them then some other units like the Ancient and Company Champion are also slot-free.

Edited December 1, 2020 by Karhedron

[TiguriusX]

Ok been theory crafting and looking at all the tricks I can do with this (looking at the maps/missions I play)

I will be going all in on this trick until they nerf it

You remember that LF drop pod with multimelta I like to use? It has plenty of room for 2 company vets

I will add 2 units of company vets and replace a wulfen dread with Murderfang himself

The combination will let me slingshot murderfang to MIDFIELD or beyond and he can't be shot...murderfang that can't be shot is going to be absolutely bonkers with 8 attacks hitting on 2s rerolling wounds...I don't even care if he dies...spend 2 CP to fight on death and I am taking something big down with me because you can't kill murderfang in melee unless you go 100%.

I can do things like this on turn 1 and not worry about being shot

The murderfang slingshot is in play

Map-The Scouring

Simple 2 or more on the advance and Murderfang is in your face

1 unit of company vets in my DZ so I can deploy as close as possible to the line

1 unit of company vets in the DP

Murderfang was benched due to his point cost but I am bringing him back now that I have this trick

As a fall back option he can always reserve and come charging out with 7s rerolling thanks to the chaplain

[Squark]

They also seem like very nice drop pod units, especially since their minimum squad size is 2. 3-4 with combi-weapons and storm shields plus an an Ancient and a pack of Long Fangs fits nicely into a single drop pod and will be infuriating to take out.

[ranulf the revenant]

I think I would actually feel kind of dirty doing the behind-a-wall-thing. But it sounds cool as a character protection unit...

[TiguriusX]

I think I would actually feel kind of dirty doing the behind-a-wall-thing. But it sounds cool as a character protection unit...

This is for competitive tournament usage only...not for casual play feel bads moments

 

My favorite 8th edition list had bjorn and chaplain dreads for 8 LCs that were also character protected so this "trick" is something I am familiar with as a play style and why it caught my attention

[ranulf the revenant]

OK, maybe I don't have enough "competitiveness" in me. To me it just seems to be more of a weird, unintended loophole and not like a 'legit' trick. But I might be wrong Edited December 1, 2020 by ranulf the revenant

[Castle Wolfenstein]

OK, maybe I don't have enough "competitiveness" in me. To me it just seems to be more of a weird, unintended loophole and not like a 'legit' trick. But I might be wrong ...

 

Right, it seems like conceptually the idea is the bodyguard unit jumps in front of the character to take a bullet for them or whatever...which they cant do from behind a wall. I get that it it works within the framework of the rules as they are now, but it still leaves a bad taste.

[TiguriusX]

I think this bodyguard rule should be nerfed after seeing how much we can stretch it and benefit. It looks like a bad 8th edition rule that wandered into 9th edition

 

 

Older versions of the bodyguard rules just let the bodyguard take a wound for you. I think that makes much more sense.

 

The old bodyguard rule got changed because people were using it with high defense characters with FNP combos (looking at you iron hands Dreadnought characters). Taking a wound after it got through all that defense was too good of a buff and unevenly applied across codexes

 

This trick is open to all space marines currently

 

GW should have used a different approach

[Kallas]

The 'trick' is also open to Necrons: their Cryptothralls can do the same thing for Crypteks.

 

Presumably this is going to be how all Bodyguard units are. It seems fine to me for the most part: it's only egregious for particularly big characters (eg, Bjorn) - we'll have to see if they give Deathshroud Terminators the same rule; and if it'll apply to Mortarion, because that would be a problem.

[Squark]

I think this bodyguard rule should be nerfed after seeing how much we can stretch it and benefit. It looks like a bad 8th edition rule that wandered into 9th edition

 

 

Older versions of the bodyguard rules just let the bodyguard take a wound for you. I think that makes much more sense.

 

The old bodyguard rule got changed because people were using it with high defense characters with FNP combos (looking at you iron hands Dreadnought characters). Taking a wound after it got through all that defense was too good of a buff and unevenly applied across codexes

 

This trick is open to all space marines currently

 

GW should have used a different approach

As it becomes available to more factions, I see it being less of an issue (provided a sensible LoS check is added). A wound limit might also be in order, although GW has struggled to get that right - The Triumph of Saint Katherine is far more deserving of Look out, Sir! protection than Bobby G or Bjorn.

 

The prudent solution to me would be to make a bodyguard keyword and add it to the main rules, as well as a keyword for characters that exempts them from bodyguard (For Demon Primarchs and maybe Bobby G and any future Loyalist returnees , the Silent King, and perhaps character dreadnaughts)

Edited December 1, 2020 by Squark

[TiguriusX]

 

 

I think this bodyguard rule should be nerfed after seeing how much we can stretch it and benefit. It looks like a bad 8th edition rule that wandered into 9th edition

 

 

Older versions of the bodyguard rules just let the bodyguard take a wound for you. I think that makes much more sense.

 

The old bodyguard rule got changed because people were using it with high defense characters with FNP combos (looking at you iron hands Dreadnought characters). Taking a wound after it got through all that defense was too good of a buff and unevenly applied across codexes

 

This trick is open to all space marines currently

 

GW should have used a different approach

As it becomes available to more factions, I see it being less of an issue (provided a sensible LoS check is added). A wound limit might also be in order, although GW has struggled to get that right.

 

The prudent solution to me would be to make a bodyguard keyword and add it to the main rules, as well as a keyword for characters that exempts them from bodyguard (For Demon Primarchs and maybe Bobby G and any future Loyalist returnees , the Silent King, and perhaps character dreadnaughts)

It currently has a wound limit of 9

 

Iron hands could turn a contemptor dread into a character and pull off this trick if they wanted

 

I think each body guard action should potentially kill a bodyguard model. Skip the wound and armor save rolls and other stuff.

 

If you roll a hit then the bodyguard has to act before you know the results. Take 1 wound for each hit intercepted. No FNP or anything can be used to stop it.

 

This let's you kill the bodyguard or watch damage punch through with no BS

Edited December 1, 2020 by TiguriusX

[Kallas]

Iron hands could turn a contemptor dread into a character and pull off this trick if they wanted

 

Well, character Dreadnoughts already get Look Out Sir - is this really much different?

 

Yes, the character can be in front of them, but with half-decent positioning you can do this LOS already.

[TiguriusX]

 

 

Iron hands could turn a contemptor dread into a character and pull off this trick if they wanted

Well, character Dreadnoughts already get Look Out Sir - is this really much different?

 

Yes, the character can be in front of them, but with half-decent positioning you can do this LOS already.

There are rules to overcome look out sir protection. A vindicare could fire a turbo booster at a character dread for example

 

No rules i am aware of to overcome bodyguard protection

 

It is a hard "no" which makes it easy to manipulate

[Kallas]

There are rules to overcome look out sir protection. A vindicare could fire a turbo booster at a character dread for example

No rules i am aware of to overcome bodyguard protection

 

It is a hard "no" which makes it easy to manipulate

 

Sure, but almost all weapons that can ignore LOS are pretty garbage for tank-busting, so it's kind of irrelevant to Dreadnoughts, and some characters can be plenty resilient to most snipers already, particularly Marines.

 

Honestly, sniper weapons are rare enough anyway. If you want to tone down the Bodyguard rules, they should just change it to, "This unit always provides Look Out Sir, even if fewer than three models." So same function against everything non-sniper, and snipers can hit them. Doesn't really change much at all.

[TiguriusX]

 

 

There are rules to overcome look out sir protection. A vindicare could fire a turbo booster at a character dread for example

No rules i am aware of to overcome bodyguard protection

 

It is a hard "no" which makes it easy to manipulate

Sure, but almost all weapons that can ignore LOS are pretty garbage for tank-busting, so it's kind of irrelevant to Dreadnoughts, and some characters can be plenty resilient to most snipers already, particularly Marines.

 

Honestly, sniper weapons are rare enough anyway. If you want to tone down the Bodyguard rules, they should just change it to, "This unit always provides Look Out Sir, even if fewer than three models." So same function against everything non-sniper, and snipers can hit them. Doesn't really change much at all.

Raven guard snipers could do a decent job on high T targets but they don't appear to like the new SM codex much and have disappeared from current meta.

 

Them and deathwatch were dangerous to my chaplain dread 8th edition list because of +1 wound shenanigans

[Kallas]

That's still a tiny number of factions. Snipers have become extremely niche; and protecting Dreadnought characters is more of a concern to non-LOS-ignoring weapons.

 

I don't think that this particular tactic is gamebreaking.

[Gherrick]

If they simply add a limitation to the Bodyguard rule to say "While a friendly <CHAPTER> CHARACTER unit that has a wounds characteristic of 9 or less is within 3" of this unit it can see, enemy models cannot target that CHARACTER unit with ranged attacks." Something that basically says the bodyguard has to be able to see the character it's protecting, that will still allow some LOS shenanigans, but only from specific angles.

 

Personally, I think the ability should allow the unit with Bodyguard be able to take the hits otherwise directed at the character, which makes FAR more sense, thematically as well as mechanically.

[Kallas]

Personally, I think the ability should allow the unit with Bodyguard be able to take the hits otherwise directed at the character, which makes FAR more sense, thematically as well as mechanically.

 

Sure, that definitely does make more sense. There's something to be said for streamlining, however. The rule, in its current implementation, does effectively force retargeting of anything going towards the character to the Bodyguards; it just does it by saying you can't target the character instead of actually changing things.

 

Is it a perfect implementation? No, but I don't think that it's actually all that powerful and game changing. Honestly, I feel like more of a problem is that ignore LOSight weapons have become a lot less prevalent (at least for Marines, anyway) making this a more noticeable problem; Thunderfire Cannons, for example, have been pretty massively gimped, and Whirlwinds still hit like wet noodles (and major bugbear for me: Land Raider Helios's are both Legends and hot garbage) meaning that there's no answer to this specific tactic.

 

It's worth noting that LOSight can be manipulated to let you Smite things (it requires closest and visible) by blocking LOSight to other, nearer units (eg, using Rhinos on that units' flanks); LOSir is different because it doesn't require closest visible, it's just closest, so it's got functionally the same thing as 8th Ed original character restrictions: if you hide a unit within 3" of your character, out of LOSight, and hide any other model/s closer to the enemy (eg, Infiltrators) then they can't target your character either.

 

So while Bodyguard makes it a lot easier to achieve, the same effect can be engineered by anyone.

[TheUnlikelyGamer84]

The 'trick' is also open to Necrons: their Cryptothralls can do the same thing for Crypteks.

 

Presumably this is going to be how all Bodyguard units are. It seems fine to me for the most part: it's only egregious for particularly big characters (eg, Bjorn) - we'll have to see if they give Deathshroud Terminators the same rule; and if it'll apply to Mortarion, because that would be a problem.

And Tyranids with their tyrant guard