Unit of the Week: Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight

[Skywrath]

Welcome to the Grey Knight unit of the Week, where we analyse the Grey Knights units strength's and weaknesses. The unit for this week is the psionic Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight. Each week a different unit will appear, with the idea being that we discuss how best to use that model on the battlefield. This discussion also covers the regular Nemesis Dreadknight and it's respective uses.

 

Questions:

 

1. General first thoughts and impressions of the unit?

 

2. How would you use said unit, to compliment a list, or to build a list around? 

 

3. What other units/strategems synergize with it to give it that extra shine?

 

4. Miscellaneous use/Tips and Tricks?

 

 

BONUS: Creative ways to use units that wouldn't be obvious at first. 

Edited December 3, 2020 by Skywrath

[librisrouge]

Being relatively new to GKs (at least in a couple of editions), and only ever having fielded NDKs when they couldn't be grandmasters yet, I'm inclined to sit back a bit myself. I've got one modeled up to be a grandmaster but, thanks plague, haven't had a chance to use him yet.

 

As far as what little I can add, I'm increasingly convinced that the psylencer and psycannon are the best ranged weapons for him, since GK are a bit strapped for quality shooting and he can move and shoot without penalties now. At least adds some quantity to a faction that desires some quality.

Edited December 3, 2020 by librisrouge

[Gnomeo]

Sorry to hear you are having al ot off issues with grey knights atm. From the sounds of it you are referring a lot to our 5th ed codex. Unfortunately I have to put my hand up and say we were broken in 5th ed I would say we were possible worse than space marines at the end of 8th.

 

As for our big guy the GMNDK. He is expensive, and I feel the main issue with him is that because the model and lore are soo good, its easy to see him as a badass killing machine truth be told he has great damage but is not super survivable. Getting a 3++ helps through either sanctuary or heed the prognosticator. However with heed it can be a cp sink.

However as pointed out by reskin he has a large base which does make him the best option for first to the fray.

 

On a personal note my favourite moment was when my GMNDK got charged by a knight. Shrugged the dmg the proceed to kill the offending machine in a single round of combat!!!

[The Woodsman]

As someone who's been fielding GMDKs quite a bit since the middle of 8th Edition, I might have some useful input about using them to effect. I actually do like them a lot, though I agree they are expensive for what they do, for one, and not as survivable as they need to be. 

 

At first glance, they appear to want to fill a heavy-hitter, Alpha-type unit role, thanks to some hefty melee attacks with high strength, AP and damage, while toting some high rate-of-fire guns that appear (but its a trick) to want to go after vehicles. They have a good armor save, paired with a decent invul that can be improved to a good invul (ah, I miss the days of 2+ invul Dreadknight GMs...) but their low (for a vehicle) toughness and degrading profile makes them "squishy". So how can we work with this to get good mileage out of a unit that should (and can) be a major threat on the battlefield.

 

I think there's two ways of going about them, list-building wise. The first is (and Lawrence from TT has done this recently) to take the one as your WL and have him drop down with MSU terminators and get the most out of his footprint on FttF. The problem I see with this is, for starters, that since he's not starting on the board you can't Heed him, so you'll either have to forgo Sanctuary on your Paladins to get the 3+, or forgo the 3+ and in which case he becomes a lot less survivable. Another issue is that while FttF is nice, it isn't a guarantee you'll get your terminators into combat, and it definitely isn't a guarantee for the big man himself - depending on how many units you're fitting in your aura, the same footprint that spreads out your buff could even create a "charge lane jam", stopping you from getting a maximum number of units into combat. If your GMDK is stuck out of combat, chances are your opponent is going to target him until he's gone, since being 9" away from his lines, he kind of jumps the queue in regards to target priority. This is more of a theoretical, but in essence you want to create as many target priority issues for your opponent (especially when using big juicy targets), which might lead him to split his fire and lower his effectiveness. Jamming a big scary walker in his lines is for sure going to lead him to send all his guns against it.

 

This leads me to the second way of running them, yes, more than one, and starting them on the board. I like giving Sactuary, Vortex and the Sanctic Shard to one, and Edict Imperator to the other. This way you can Gate one up (Gate coming from a friendly) and have him boost his invul and hopefully drop a d6 MW bomb in your opponent's deployment. I shunt some Interceptors up with him to clear some stuff in the shooting phase, and hope (though don't rely) on a lucky T1 charge. Shorter board lengths and decent movement on the second GM should allow him to be in range with his guns, if not, use Edict to move forward onto an objective. He's also received Heed to then have two T6 3++ walkers halfway up the board. The truth is, they are a potentially efficient distraction that can support your first wave push, buying time and board control for your Deep Striking assault units. The Overwhelming Assault stratagem is also great for boosting their combat efficiency, and they can give Knights and Primarchs a good go with this activated. Alas, they do get really costly in CP, if you're fueling their guns every turn. I think the key is to not do this, and use their guns as heavy infantry killers rather than vehicle hunters. Back in 8th, running 3 of them could be an option, but now you kind of need your third slot to take Voldus or a Librarian for your Dominus powers. 

 

I've run a couple of GMDKs along either 2 Land Raiders or a single LRC to some success, the "vehicle overload" makes it so that your opponent is going to struggle to get through all that armor, forcing target priority mistakes and boosting your overall survivability. You could, alternatively, run a couple in Deep Strike, as a 2nd wave threat, and take your early board control/apply early pressure with Interceptors and Gating Paladins - however this involves having one GMDK on a 4++, in which case your opponent will most likely focus and destroy him. 

 

Just my opinion, but as I do love them, I try to fight their corner when I can! 

[The Woodsman]

 

I think you hit the nail on the head, the single stratagem available to NDKs makes them great offensively. The bonus Heed the prognosticars stratagem for characters does add some survivability to the GMNDK, but bang for your buck output, ugh.. expansive when he dies in 1 turn. I want them to do well, and I did use one at the start of 9th and seen success. Hell I've used some every edition. The success is based upon the matchup though.

 

Spider's game from TT, is a terrible example, he deepstruck the GMNDK and a unit of termies and both failed their charges, re rolled and failed again. Then both those units sat in the corner and did nothing for the rest of the game. Effectively.... 190+245... 430 odd points that did nothing all game. The GMNDK soaked one round of shooting and was alive on 1 wound, and Lawrence used Armoured resilience on him. Which is a mistake as it can only target infantry, of which the GMNDK is not. So realistically, a few more wounds should of  went through and it would of died in 1 round of shooting.

 

Lawrence won that game with a handicap essentially.

 

Question: If you just loaded him out with 2 guns he comes in at 230 pts. Would he be worth taking as a gun platform and granting rerolls to your dreads in the backfield and taking empyrean domination, just generating you CP every turn considering how CP hungry we are? And targeting infantry.

 

 

Thanks for the spoil ;) I'm joking, I still have a bit to watch, but I generally assume Lawrence is going to win, and despite his first turn being a little iffy, Beard's was as well, from there on out I assumed the Spider would snatch an advantage.

 

But the whole failed charge situation is why I don't feel deep striking the GMDK, along with a bunch of other expensive units, is the optimal way to use him. I could see him hug the backfield and buff some Ven Dreads, that would also cause some target priority issues - do you shoot the scary buffing character, or the actual ranged threats? However, you'd effectively have 240-odd points of shooting and melee potential doing little, unless of course your opponent needs to get within 24" (say, Necrons, for example). I think I'd have Astral Aim on the Dreads, and give the GM either Gate or Edict, that way he can get moving pretty quickly in a pinch - for example if you've negated most anti-tank and want some extra weight in the center board. That's another point, your own target priority. If you are fielding some expensive armored units (GMDKs, Raiders, whatevs), on which you're basing a part of your strategy, you need to eliminate the threats to them. Efficiency, points costs and profiles are all well and good, but knowing how to place your units, what to target and when, where to place your buffs, etc, will go a lot further than raw output from a unit. Granted, some things are broken sometimes, like 8th ed Marines, and will give even a "perfect" player an unbalanced game, but that's the nature of 40K, in a sense. My point is, play in a manner that helps you get the most out of your models, regardless of what it is you're fielding. In the right list, and played properly, mostly everything in the game has some good potential. 

[Gnomeo]

I think here is a good place to point out the odds of making a 9" charge (from deepstrike) with re roll from FTTF is 47.8%. And without FTTF 27.7%. With this in mind is why I really agree with the discussion on seeing GMNDK as not the matcho machine killing that he can be. And that carful play is required to stop it getting blasted of the board

[Skywrath]

I think here is a good place to point out the odds of making a 9" charge (from deepstrike) with re roll from FTTF is 47.8%. And without FTTF 27.7%. With this in mind is why I really agree with the discussion on seeing GMNDK as not the matcho machine killing that he can be. And that carful play is required to stop it getting blasted of the board

 

That being said, you can always dynamic insertion him, pop sanctuary, and gun down anyone close to you. I'm convinced that if you position him carefully enough, he should still be standing alive by the end of the turn. And then next turn you can charge with him. 

 

However that being said, 48% approx even with a re-roll chance? I was under the impression that it was at least in the 50's? I had instances where FTTF traits failed (even in the tournament - I had 5 units within 9' with that re-roll and all of them failed. Guess who lost that game), but I didn't expect it to be that low.

 

 

As for my experience with GMNDK's. I'm actually sold on them, with the caveat that you position them carefully enough out of MM/lascannon range. Other than that, that GMNDK presents a pretty big threat on the board. Before I go down this rabbit-hole, I have a mental musing where powers compete with each other. Let's say I had a 10m paladin brick, with 2 GMNDKs (I never run a single GMNDK). Both of them are expensive points wise (paladins more than GMNDK's), and both need sanctuary to do what they do. Obviously casting two instances of sanctuary is not going to happen, and you are left with the choice of casting sanctuary either one of those two, and one of the two GMNDK's has (hypothetically) Heed the Prognosticars on him. Then comes the crunch time and you are in a position where you have to choose between those two targets - protect the GMNDK, or the Paladins. Your CP ran out, and both of those units are integral for one reason or another in the game you are in. See the problem? 

 

Most Grey Knights powers and units compete with each other, I noticed. Dreadnought with lascannon vs purgation squad with psilencers both compete with AA. GMNDK and Paladins for Sanctuary. Gate of Infinity between strikes and interceptors (bit of a moot point, seeing how interceptors can shunt and you have a lot of units, but for the sake of thoroughness). With this being said I believe this is one of the many reasons the GMNDK is a bit of a "dark horse" in this instance. Firepower and melee wise - great, he's probably on par with paladins in terms of damage output. Similar story with survival - I mentioned previously that to protect him, you have to introduce more than one threat, and we have ways to do that (mainly by adding paladins or something of that calibre). 

 

My experience with the GMNDK has been overwhelmingly positive. There was the one game where I tested him out the first time and the plasma cannons/lascannons/MM ate away at him in one turn, but it was still fun. In other games, he was incredibly hard to shift - holding points, smashing people with 7 attacks on the charge, clearing chaff with an unbuffed psycannon. Reskin had some merit in terms of putting him behind with AA on him, but you could easily do the same thing with purgation squads, with the added benefit of interaction. So where does that leave him in terms of list-building potential? Answer: Either to hold point with the Dreadknight teleporter, expensive screen (if paladins are on the board, with probably another GMNDK) dedicated chaff clearer or as a massive beatstick, on the level of Draigo. That being said, the fact that his weapons don't interact with tides and he doesn't benefit from Look out, Sir rule, sucks. Oh, and also that the strategem of Bring down the beast (against other factions) will make you very very sad.

 

With 9th, there are a few things I'd want with him - T8, or T7, interactions with tides, and the benefits of the look out sir rule. I could go about adding AP to the psycannon (-3 perhaps) and the psilencer (-1 or 2), but that's another kettle of fish. There needs to be more interactions with him, but here's my hot take, even as is, he is worth considering if like me, you like all your eggs in one basket and prefer quality > quantity. 

 

One of my better ideas: Perhaps it's worth experimenting with him being an Inner Fire character? Do the inner fire trick, roll 3d6, and then chase down people doing the same trick over again? Maybe then combo that idea with truesilver armor? I think we actually might be onto something here. He would probably be a better choice than the apothecary on the account of him having much more wounds and having a 1CP stategem to have a 5+ FNP.

 

Other than that, not much in the way of insighful ideas, unfortunately.

 

Throwing in a tactica question here: If the GMNDK's wounds were dropped down to 7 through being shot at, does he benefit from Look out Sir rule then?

 

To wrap this up: 

 

DO NOT CONSIDER THE REGULAR NDK - I'm looking at you Reskin! ;p

Edited December 4, 2020 by Skywrath

[Gnomeo]

@skywrath.

 

To answer your question nope. Once below 10 wounds he does not get look out sir as its based on starting wounds.

 

2nd the idea of inner fire is interesting however. You cant use dynamic insertion on a GMNDK as it is not the teleport strike ability. So for it to work you would need to use edict aswell as inner fire.

 

You are 100% right on positioning being key. Deepstrike middle of enemy lines your dead. On the flank with limited LOS on the other hand great.

 

Unfortunately the mathshammer on charges is correct which is the main reason I stopped playing hyper aggressive melee knights

[The Woodsman]

@skywrath.

 

To answer your question nope. Once below 10 wounds he does not get look out sir as its based on starting wounds.

 

2nd the idea of inner fire is interesting however. You cant use dynamic insertion on a GMNDK as it is not the teleport strike ability. So for it to work you would need to use edict aswell as inner fire.

 

You are 100% right on positioning being key. Deepstrike middle of enemy lines your dead. On the flank with limited LOS on the other hand great.

 

Unfortunately the mathshammer on charges is correct which is the main reason I stopped playing hyper aggressive melee knights

 

And to top it off, you can't use Edit on a Deep Striking unit, I don't have to exact wording in front of me, but units coming in from reserves can not  move for any reason after they've arrived, except for charges. I'm not sold on the Inner Fire trick to begin with, though a cheap Brotherhood Champion with the relic Blade and Inner Fire could make for an alright combat nuke. Its still a lot of ifs for it to go off. But in essence, like Gnomeo says, using LoS blocking and other shenanigans is key to success with the GMDK. Using him from DS can be useful, but not as the delivery mechanism for combat that it seems to want to be. Dropping a couple of them on your opponent's flanks, spreading out your threats, taking pressure off your Paladin Star(s) is where its at for me. 

 

As for the FttF drop in general, I'm keen to try MSU termis/Paladins with a FttF Warlord, just maybe not a GMDK - in this instance I'd have a bunch of Interceptors/Purgators to support and clear stuff T1. Don't forget there's no obligation to deep strike on T2! Or even 3 anymore. Sometimes waiting a turn can free up some options and force your opponent into either playing really defensively and forgo movement to block out your DS, or try and spread out and isolate his units, in which case you can easily redeploy with Gate/Edict and gun down some key stuff, giving yourself more options come T3.

[Skywrath]

@skywrath.

 

To answer your question nope. Once below 10 wounds he does not get look out sir as its based on starting wounds.

 

2nd the idea of inner fire is interesting however. You cant use dynamic insertion on a GMNDK as it is not the teleport strike ability. So for it to work you would need to use edict aswell as inner fire.

 

You are 100% right on positioning being key. Deepstrike middle of enemy lines your dead. On the flank with limited LOS on the other hand great.

 

Unfortunately the mathshammer on charges is correct which is the main reason I stopped playing hyper aggressive melee knights

 

I didn't know that, and I stand corrected. However, are you sure that Teleport Strike and paying 10points to put him in Deep-Strike is not the same thing?

 

That being said - hyper aggressive melee knights is a concept that I also fell disillusioned with - my two main running ideas is either a convergence list, or an escalation style list. I still think us as an army we are more melee orientated, but I digress. What concepts are you playing around with now?

 

 

@skywrath.

 

To answer your question nope. Once below 10 wounds he does not get look out sir as its based on starting wounds.

 

2nd the idea of inner fire is interesting however. You cant use dynamic insertion on a GMNDK as it is not the teleport strike ability. So for it to work you would need to use edict aswell as inner fire.

 

You are 100% right on positioning being key. Deepstrike middle of enemy lines your dead. On the flank with limited LOS on the other hand great.

 

Unfortunately the mathshammer on charges is correct which is the main reason I stopped playing hyper aggressive melee knights

 

And to top it off, you can't use Edit on a Deep Striking unit, I don't have to exact wording in front of me, but units coming in from reserves can not  move for any reason after they've arrived, except for charges. I'm not sold on the Inner Fire trick to begin with, though a cheap Brotherhood Champion with the relic Blade and Inner Fire could make for an alright combat nuke. Its still a lot of ifs for it to go off. But in essence, like Gnomeo says, using LoS blocking and other shenanigans is key to success with the GMDK. Using him from DS can be useful, but not as the delivery mechanism for combat that it seems to want to be. Dropping a couple of them on your opponent's flanks, spreading out your threats, taking pressure off your Paladin Star(s) is where its at for me. 

 

As for the FttF drop in general, I'm keen to try MSU termis/Paladins with a FttF Warlord, just maybe not a GMDK - in this instance I'd have a bunch of Interceptors/Purgators to support and clear stuff T1. Don't forget there's no obligation to deep strike on T2! Or even 3 anymore. Sometimes waiting a turn can free up some options and force your opponent into either playing really defensively and forgo movement to block out your DS, or try and spread out and isolate his units, in which case you can easily redeploy with Gate/Edict and gun down some key stuff, giving yourself more options come T3.

 

 

I'd kindly request for you to show me that rule, because again going of my experience, it was a valid tactic, last I checked. I've seen others doing that as well, so forgive my skeptism. Like you, I'm not sold on the Inner Fire combo, but in a list (like we discussed) favouring the tide of escalation (smite tide), why wouldn't you have at least one instance of that. Plus, when it does work, (and this is me playing devil's advocate here), it has the potential to get done. And even if he can't 3" deep-strike, then that doesn't completely nullify my previous argument of inner fire. Maybe we could look into a GMNDK with a Lore Master trait? 

 

Contrary to what I said earlier - I'm not completely out of the melee "phase" of list-building just yet. I'm keen to hear your thoughts and how it works out. 

Edited December 4, 2020 by Skywrath

[Gnomeo]

So for dynamic insertion it specifies on the stratagem teleport strike ability. Which is the ability strike and terminators have. Unfortunately the ability that lets dreadknights deep strike is called dreadknight teleporter. This also applies for draigo, and any use of the teleportaium stratagem.

 

As for edict the reason you cant use it after deep strike isn't obvious at 1st. 1st you need to look at the core rulebook where it stats "Reinforcement units cannot make a Normal Move, an Advance, Fall Back or Remain Stationary this turn." Then you need to look at edict where it states "make a move as if it were the movement phase" due to the reinforcement rule this ends up meaning yes you can shoot with edict however not move after coming in from reinforcement

[The Woodsman]

So for dynamic insertion it specifies on the stratagem teleport strike ability. Which is the ability strike and terminators have. Unfortunately the ability that lets dreadknights deep strike is called dreadknight teleporter. This also applies for draigo, and any use of the teleportaium stratagem.

 

As for edict the reason you cant use it after deep strike isn't obvious at 1st. 1st you need to look at the core rulebook where it stats "Reinforcement units cannot make a Normal Move, an Advance, Fall Back or Remain Stationary this turn." Then you need to look at edict where it states "make a move as if it were the movement phase" due to the reinforcement rule this ends up meaning yes you can shoot with edict however not move after coming in from reinforcement

 

Thank you for looking throught the Rulebook in my stead But yeah, as Gnomeo says, Dynamic Insertion applies to the Teleport Strike ability, it isn't a blanket stratagem for reserves.

 

To me, Grey Knights are really a toolkit army, with potential in every phase (this kind of function was what made Craftworlds so prominent in 8th). Skewing your list, or building it to maximize a certain aspect of the army while ignoring the others, can work well against some builds, but will be heavily countered by others. Plus, a skew or gimmick list that takes a tournament or two against all odds will often be countered pretty quickly afterwards (think of the Kraken Genestealer rush list). You're obviously going to lean on a certain form of damage output more than others, and currently with how Tides are working, Convergence seems to be the way to go. So, you should try and fit in a fair few psiweapons to benefit from this, but you should also try and have a few spare casts to benefit from some 2D Smites. This is all well and good, but GK do have pretty good potential in combat and kind of want to make it into melee to survive longer. You do then want to figure out ways of delivering them and of boosting their efficiency in combat (ie. Ancient, Augurium Scrolls, etc). I wouldn't bank my entire strategy on a FttF drop, but it can definitely be an additional threat that supports your psiweapon firebase and mortal wound threat. 

 

Just to stay on topic, the GMDK can be pretty nasty in combat, you could actually consider the Dreadfists for the extra attack. Considering the current "meta", big ol' meanis like Knights and Primarchs aren't really what they were back in 8th, the d6 damage might not be a must. They can work as some mid-game support, or "distraction carnifexes" by threatening flanks. You can also march them up the field and have your opponent figure out what he wants to shoot. Here's a quick draft list that could take this into account.

 

2x GMDK (Fists, Psilencer, Psycannon, TP) 1 has Sanctuary, the other Vortex.

Librarian (Lore Master, Empyr. Dom., Warp Shaping, Armored Resilience, Storm Bolter, Sanctic Shard)

 

3x 5 Strikes (Psilencer, Halberds)

 

10 Paladins (Halberds, 4 Psycannons, Hammerhand)

Paladin Ancient (Edict, Augurium Scrolls)

 

10 Interceptors (Halberds, Astral Aim)

 

2x 5 Purgators (Psilencers, Gate)

 

1994 pts, 11 CP. 

 

I think this is a good example of  building with Convergence in mind, but having the tools to deliver good MW output and a solid melee threat. Between the ability to Deep Strike, Gate and Edict around, your units should be able to be where they need to, and get some cheeky charges off. You could DS either the GMDKs and Strikes, or the Paladins, Strikes and Ancient, or a combination of those, or just the three Strikes. The GMDK are granting some re-rolls from large footprints, have combat, shooting and psychic threats and when properly buffed can be a pain to get rid of, especially when you consider there will probably be 10 Paladins your opponent needs to deal with first/as well. They are almost 25% of your points, but rather than having to carry your list, they instead support it through an aura and threat saturation, while being able to really put a dent in your opponent's lines. Sorry if I'm rambling, just thought I'd explore the idea. 

 

**I was initially considering the Chaplain for the psiweapon buffs, but you then lose out on reliable psychic support/utility, and those Litanies, until (if/when) we get a Master of Sanctity, are pretty swingy, while 3 powers on a +2 to Cast/re-rolling platform is almost a sure shot in regards to your key powers going off. You could alternatively double up on Sanctuary with the Ancient, might be better.

Edited December 4, 2020 by The Woodsman