Is Kaldor Draigo overcosted?

[Skywrath]

With the nerf to Draigo's SS, I wonder whether 190 points for his model is too much. Sure he's a pretty strong beatstick and knows two psychic powers but if you take Voldus for 160 you get a similar damage output, not counting the fact he knows three psychic powers. Then the question arises - is paying 30 points extra for the full chapter master re-roll ability worth it, and will it stay that way when our codex drops? And if this is not the case, is Voldus too cheap for what he can do? Regardless of costs, I'll try to find any way I can to fit him in my lists, but I'm keen to hear your thoughts.  

Edited December 3, 2020 by Skywrath

[Gnomeo]

I love draigo but for me in list design I find him a luxury that often I can't afford as points are more efficient else where. Use rerolls are great however they are not full rerolls an unfortunate carry over from 8th. as you pointed voldus or even a gmndk I find to be more efficient. And with stuff like etheral manipulation and fury of the 1st. I find its just not needed. Though in a heavy vehicle list is essential.

[The Woodsman]

I'm unsure if he's overcosted per say, or that GK get better utility from cheaper running cheaper characters. That being said, he is a melee monster (a little more efficient than Voldus thanks to better AP) and 2 powers/2 casts isn't bad. You definitely do need to run a Librarian if you're running him though, as I find you'll want to cast more offensive powers with Draigo, rather than have him as a toolbox caster. As for the SS nerf, it kind of comes out in the wash - you're effectively getting a 1+ armor save and a 4++ invul. Against anything AP-2 or worse, you're still rocking that 3+, and are getting a 2+ against AP -1. Sure, against -3 and better you're getting the 4+, but with the changes to Thunder Hammers, it might even out. Sure, power swords are wounding on 3s and dropping you to 4+, but then they're only 1 damage. You can always use Sanctuary or Heed the Prognosticars to bump him up to 3+ if you feel you really need it. As for the full re-roll, I actually do think it is worth the 30 points - especially if you're running large unit(s) of Paladins with psiweapons or hammers, combining the re-roll with Fury of the First makes them super accurate with those heavier weapons. Plus, he's a badman, I always love having him around. Is he the auto-include he was pre-Psychic Awakening? Probably not, but then its better for the army to not have those auto-includes. I do think there's a place for him, depending on the list. I could see a Double Trouble (wink wink, Skywrath) Paladin Bomb list really benefit from Draigo's presence. That being said, I'm not sure an MSU power armored list would benefit in the same way. 

[Skywrath]

I love draigo but for me in list design I find him a luxury that often I can't afford as points are more efficient else where. Use rerolls are great however they are not full rerolls an unfortunate carry over from 8th. as you pointed voldus or even a gmndk I find to be more efficient. And with stuff like etheral manipulation and fury of the 1st. I find its just not needed. Though in a heavy vehicle list is essential.

 

Pretty much accurately summarises my thoughts. I'm starting to think that what if when our codex drops for 9th, we keep the old 8th edition captain rules, to reflect the fact that we are the elite. Would be quite nice, wouldn't it?

 

I'm unsure if he's overcosted per say, or that GK get better utility from cheaper running cheaper characters. That being said, he is a melee monster (a little more efficient than Voldus thanks to better AP) and 2 powers/2 casts isn't bad. You definitely do need to run a Librarian if you're running him though, as I find you'll want to cast more offensive powers with Draigo, rather than have him as a toolbox caster. As for the SS nerf, it kind of comes out in the wash - you're effectively getting a 1+ armor save and a 4++ invul. Against anything AP-2 or worse, you're still rocking that 3+, and are getting a 2+ against AP -1. Sure, against -3 and better you're getting the 4+, but with the changes to Thunder Hammers, it might even out. Sure, power swords are wounding on 3s and dropping you to 4+, but then they're only 1 damage. You can always use Sanctuary or Heed the Prognosticars to bump him up to 3+ if you feel you really need it. As for the full re-roll, I actually do think it is worth the 30 points - especially if you're running large unit(s) of Paladins with psiweapons or hammers, combining the re-roll with Fury of the First makes them super accurate with those heavier weapons. Plus, he's a badman, I always love having him around. Is he the auto-include he was pre-Psychic Awakening? Probably not, but then its better for the army to not have those auto-includes. I do think there's a place for him, depending on the list. I could see a Double Trouble (wink wink, Skywrath) Paladin Bomb list really benefit from Draigo's presence. That being said, I'm not sure an MSU power armored list would benefit in the same way. 

 

Running a Librarian is definitely a staple in most lists. However, I do wonder whether we can skimp out as the expression goes on putting a unit on the field that can cast two/know two (even with the WL trait) that can be a cheaper CP battery. Perhaps the Brotherhood Champion is worth looking at for that purpose as a hybrid between Draigo/Librarian with the Blade of the Forsworn relic?

 

Swinging back to Draigo - I think I liked the extra security of a 3+ invuln (even with my tendency to fail majority 3+ saves), compared to a 1+ armor save. As much as mathematically it is a side-grade, that change is a difference between a high AP shot killing or saving Draigo. That, and I think it diminishes Draigo's reputation as a murder machine in both fluff/game. While true, I can buff him to a 3+ invuln with either of those strategems, that will rarely be the case, as Sanctuary "competes" with other threats on the board, such as Paladins (who need that save bad), GMNDK's (who are pretty durable, admittedly) and maybe even a LR. Not to mention, paying 2CP for that strategem, especially when the paladins are on the board, and again quoting the fact that we are undertuned (and subsequently paying CP for defensive traits) I'd be surprised if we have any CP left by T3. I also like the analogy that Draigo is an offensive unit - my playstyle is offensive with my GK (no pun intended), perhaps we could build lists by categorising units in that manner?

 

Regarding my double-trouble list: Check your PM's after this message, boy oh boy did I come up with a monster of a list. 

 

woah woah woah, lets not mention Voldus and Cheap in the same sentence, we wouldn't want internet algorithms to get back to GW and then he gets a nerf, I'll be turning up to your door with a shotgun Skywrath.

 

Just be prepared for the twin lascannon shots coming your way before that then ;p

 

I think with the change to SS, he is definitely over costed for what he does. He is a luxury with his melee combat ability, and a must if vsing Daemons, but in a competitive all comers list, I wouldn't take him over Voldus anymore. The full re-rolls is definitely a luxury and one that's not needed. Voldus offers more utility and if you still want both of them to get into melee as they are both monsters, the -4AP from Draigo isn't needed, as -3AP from Voldus still takes characters to their 4++ invul.

The 30pts you save, will get you a nice special weapon on a vehicle or something that you can use in several more turns then Draigo's melee might. 

 

If the option came between putting Voldus and a MM on my LR vs Draigo, unfortunately I'd have to choose the first option. I never said Draigo was a bad unit, I was just merely pointing out that on top of everything previously, this is an edition that rewards Chapter Masters for full-rerolls. Most other CM's like Azrael are 160ish points, and having Draigo at that point cost (unless 190 points is a reflection on what he will become) seems like a shot in the foot for GK.

 

Tell me how Draigo at 190pts is worth the same amount as a unit of 5 terminators? And he's go a useless warlord trait thats utterly useless.

 

Bit of an invalid argument, as seeing how our units are still 1W and 2W and they are only there to score points. My idea of a strike squad is to put them on points, casts smites/powers, maybe gate them to hold another point in a better location, and forget them. For the extra 100 points, you could put that either into Draigo, or an Apothecary if you don't have one in your list. So by that logic, I'd say Draigo is, with the caveat that a BC isn't included. When I create a list I look at synergies - I put a Librarian in there - CP Battery, Offensive Caster. I put Voldus in there - upgrade from a Librarian as well as being a beatstick. I put a BC in the list - extend smite range, as well as being a re-roll to charge Wl with Augurium scrolls. So if I were to put Draigo in my lists - I'd put him as an upgrade from the BC, and if Voldus was there, replace him with a Librarian, especially when there is already a beatstick. So circling back to your argument: Quality > Quantity. Also, the only two WL traits that are useful for us is Lore Master and the First into the Fray - bit of a moot point because the other 4 are also equally useless.

 

He should be priced somewhere between 160-170pts.

With Voldus coming in around 150-160.

 

Here's the interesting point - while I agree with the points, should BC's act as generic captains, re-rolling hit rolls of 1, while the Grand Master/Kaldor giving re-rolls to all failed misses. Technically speaking, the BC is equivalent to a Captain, and the GM (by that logic) is a chapter master.

 

And I say this with all conviction as Draigo was "my boy" He was my first ever 40k model I bought and painted and he literally won me many games in 5th edition and 6th edition solo. So I absolutely love him. I hate his weird fluff, and unfortunately its kinda of cannon now so there's changing it. But in terms of raw power he was the man in 5th edition. 

 

He had a rule called eternal warrior, which means he couldn't be one shot by double str weapons, or force weapons and he could go 1v1 against Logan Grimmnar and chop him up like sashimi. So it really does hurt shelfing him. But yes, Voldus is the new Draigo, considering Invul saves can only go to a 3++ max, sanctuary or the 1CP will make Voldus just as resilient.

Oh not to mention in 5th edition, Draigo was str and toughness 5!!!

 

I'd love that rule back as well as those points/stat changes.

 

In blue.