Mortis

[b1soul]

Perpetuals are not objectively good or bad for the setting. They're "modern" 40K's version of the old Sensei lore (and arguably less ridiculous than the Sensei).

 

My main gripe with Mortis is...do we really need a SoT novel focusing on Titans? Why not just keep Titans in the background?

 

The SoT is like the climactic weeks of the Illiad . It should, IMO, focus on Primarch and Astartes struggles with other forces forming the backdrop. Each SoT main entry is precious. A book on Titans is a bit of waste really.

 

As for Perpetuals, Imperial Army, Cultists, Titans, Arik Taranis, Emperor's Children depravery and the like...only have them enter the SoT main entries if/when their actions would be critical to plot advancement. Their less-than-critical activities could be covered in SoT anthologies or non-limited edition novellas.

[Roomsky]

Just past a quarter into this and I honestly think it's fantastic. As before - it's amazing the different wants and needs each reader has for the event.

 

re: b1soul - I would like to raise the point that Titan combat is a big part of the Siege, perhaps doubly so because Titandeath didn't have grand titan engagements front and centre. Recall how French got significant backlash in the past for placing tanks in the background of Tallarn: Ironclad. I don't know if there's a right or wrong answer for either, but I do expect there to be a "finally, titans" reader for every "why titans?" reader as more people get the book.

[Scribe]

Perpetuals are not objectively good or bad for the setting. They're "modern" 40K's version of the old Sensei lore (and arguably less ridiculous than the Sensei).

 

Agreed, right up to the point where they became, seemingly, central to the entire story.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

I actually really liked all the bits in Mortis about Oll, Grammaticus, Leetu, the Emperor/Horus, Shiban, and Corswain.

 

Unfortunately, I am not at all a fan of Titan legions, crews, and battles...I just find them rather boring in the way some B&C fraters find Astartes and Primarchs really boring.

 

Prose is at John's typical level, which is very good. Just not a fan of Titan (or tank) battles. Frankly, I'd rather read about Katsuhiro than big lumbering machine-men blowing each other up.

Yeah I kind of glazed over everything that wasn't that. Just wasn't invested in anything other than those parts lol

[mc warhammer]

 

Perpetuals are not objectively good or bad for the setting. They're "modern" 40K's version of the old Sensei lore (and arguably less ridiculous than the Sensei).

 

Agreed, right up to the point where they became, seemingly, central to the entire story.

 

i don't mind them so far, but i'd be hard pressed to answer what they add to the story. they could easily have been an extinct footnote in humanity's history to add a bit of flavour and inspiration for the primarch project rather than characters in the story itself

Just past a quarter into this and I honestly think it's fantastic. As before - it's amazing the different wants and needs each reader has for the event.

 

re: b1soul - I would like to raise the point that Titan combat is a big part of the Siege, perhaps doubly so because Titandeath didn't have grand titan engagements front and centre. Recall how French got significant backlash in the past for placing tanks in the background of Tallarn: Ironclad. I don't know if there's a right or wrong answer for either, but I do expect there to be a "finally, titans" reader for every "why titans?" reader as more people get the book.

i

'm looking forward to your review, 'cos the response here so far to the book has got me wondering tbh

Edited April 26, 2021 by mc warhammer

[Petitioner's City]

I'm about a quarter in too and loving it so far. French captures the scale of this setting so well, and the consequent politics of it too. He takes the time to just let that scale set - to really imagine a titan coffin ship or an entire legio's leadership in attendance.

 

On the siege and its focus - the mechanicum/mechanicus is essential for the setting, and the titans too. Traditionally they weren't so focal in literature I wonder because BL really emerged after epic's heyday with just Dan's warleod series and Titanicus being titan literature. As titans and knights became central to several games, especially Titanicus and 40k respectively, their "centrality" in the setting has become a bit more clear - just as the mechanicus was similarly marginal until their ranges emerged in the mid2010s. Anyway, the setting - and the heresy - is more than just primarchs and marines. It is everything in the imperium, and the modern heresy has shown this all-encompassing aspect to it sadly only in fits and starts (it has arguably been too marine-centric and with a strange focus only on certain legions). But it is great the siege is doing this, trying to show how it affects the complicated intersecting bodies and ideologies that make up the imperium. Honestly I was surprised by the choice, but love it because it makes total sense too :D

Edited April 26, 2021 by Petitioner's City

[Marshal Loss]

My main gripe with Mortis is...do we really need a SoT novel focusing on Titans? Why not just keep Titans in the background?

 

Because the relationship between Titans & the Horus Heresy goes back over 30 years, right to the very beginning. The Heresy was first mentioned in 1987, and it was in the Adeptus Titanicus game published only a year later in 1988 that the HH was fleshed out into something recognisable to us today. When one considers therefore that the HH's background was originally built up only so that there would exist a setting in which Titans could battle, their starring role in Mortis seems appropriate.

[Scribe]

Having the book Titan focused isn't (wouldn't be) inappropriate.

 

I'll have to get this just to read exactly what is going on in StrangeOrders spoiler concerning a certain someone.

 

If someone wants to save me some money and time and expand on that, it would be appreciated.

[DukeLeto69]

 

 

My main gripe with Mortis is...do we really need a SoT novel focusing on Titans? Why not just keep Titans in the background?

Because the relationship between Titans & the Horus Heresy goes back over 30 years, right to the very beginning. The Heresy was first mentioned in 1987, and it was in the Adeptus Titanicus game published only a year later in 1988 that the HH was fleshed out into something recognisable to us today. When one considers therefore that the HH's background was originally built up only so that there would exist a setting in which Titans could battle, their starring role in Mortis seems appropriate.

(I am sure most people know this)

 

And it was a Civil War because GW could only afford one mould so needed the Titans to be the same!

[b1soul]

Yeah...I know there are a lot of Titans at the Siege to break/defend the Palace, but I'm not sure that justifies them being the narrarive focus of an entire novel in the SoT miniseries. Why not just have Titans and their crews pop up in multiple novels as part of the strategising and action...

 

I am speaking based on my personal taste though. I have almost zero interest in Titan crews, battles etc. So to me, anything else would be better.

[Scribe]

Yeah...I know there are a lot of Titans at the Siege to break/defend the Palace, but I'm not sure that justifies them being the narrarive focus of an entire novel in the SoT miniseries. Why not just have Titans and their crews pop up in multiple novels as part of the strategising and action...

 

I am speaking based on my personal taste though. I have almost zero interest in Titan crews, battles etc. So to me, anything else would be better.

I mean...many keystrokes have been lost over how the series could be done. Titans, especially as they are siege vehicles in and of themselves make more sense than any number of things that have taken up print release windows, short stories, full novels, audios.

 

Ultimately it's as was noted a few days ago, the series deviation from expectation has caused the series to mean too many different things to different people and it's never going to satisfy now.

[rookie40K]

I’m assuming this was already mentioned, but GW is pushing selling Titans as evident in recent White Dwarf focus. Of course there is going to be a titan focus in the Siege series. Not my cup of tea, but it’s starting to work on me as I had no interest in purchasing Titans, but I’m starting to be swayed and I haven’t even read the novel.

[Matcap86]

I'm three quarters in and I'm continuously thinking " this should've been 2 or 3 novellas". Especially the Oll plotline, where the narrative purely seems to happen to deepen and validate the existence of a (minor) character we haven't seen for 20 odd books.

[DarkChaplain]

I think Oll has last been seen in Perpetual, an audio drama from Advent 2016, printed in Burden of Loyalty in Feb 2018.

Before that, he was in Unmarked from Mark of Calth, way back in 2013.

He was introduced a year prior to that in Know No Fear.

 

That's.... really bloody flimsy for a character we are supposed to see as a pivotal character during the Siege and are getting fed backstory now, instead of the intervening 5-8 years of publishing history.

 

Doesn't help that his posse is aided by another character that left the stage way back in 2013 just to never show up again until it was either her or a deus ex machina to move the story along.

[Matcap86]

Yeah, it also feels like they're overdoing it with the, "he was at every major event in history theme". A few sure, but we're now in the dozens of mythological and historical events. It's a bit much.

[mc warhammer]

yeah, if every major historical event is 'cos of perpetuals (including the emp) then it removes agency from baseline humanity to affect the world around them

[1ncarnadine]

yeah, if every major historical event is 'cos of perpetuals (including the emp) then it removes agency from baseline humanity to affect the world around them

Yeah, but that's only if they actually did live through those events. They could all be weapons left out of the same box, imbued with the memories of dead shaman souls or something. Totally delusional group of warp-spawned not-truly-human monsters. It's not even 100% clear if Oll & co ever leave the warp through most of their journey until they arrive on Terra, or if most of what they're seeing are warp delusions. Traveling through time, or traveling through what the warp is reflecting at you...?

 

At least that's my read, and I'm sticking to it, because it makes perpetuals tolerable for me

[mc warhammer]

like...each perpetual possibly is a collection of lived experiences of other people/perpetuals/shamen?

[Scribe]

Sounds like head canon to make a terrible addition bearable. :p

[1ncarnadine]

like...each perpetual possibly is a collection of lived experiences of other people/perpetuals/shamen?

Sure! That's one way it could work. I'm not hard-set on nailing down what the Emperor is, or the perpetuals. I prefer it to be left open and to fill it with our weird perceptions. There are some really cool theories out there! I like trying to keep them in play, in spite of how much has been revealed lately.

 

 

Sounds like head canon to make a terrible addition bearable.

[DukeLeto69]

I'm not hard-set on nailing down what the Emperor is, or the perpetuals. I prefer it to be left open and to fill it with our weird perceptions. There are some really cool theories out there! I like trying to keep them in play, in spite of how much has been revealed lately.

Personally this does go to the heart of the problem of going back and fleshing out/revealing the ancient history in the lore. I know it was about ££££ and we have had some great stories but maybe, just maybe they should not have touched the HH?

 

It is the same with Dune. The ancient history there (interestingly 10k years before the present) was The Butlerian Jihad which was referred to in the glossary and mentioned by characters but all we knew was it was the catalyst for why they don’t have AI and humanity has evolved with “mentats” or human computers etc. Then Frank Herberts son Brian decides to write some prequels and...big let down, it’s basically Terminator!

 

If the lore has been talking about things and hinting at them for decades, the fans expectations or assumptions can never be met.

Edited April 29, 2021 by DukeLeto69

[Scribe]

I think I've mentioned before, but outside of the 'canon' milestones that we have had for decades I just want one thing.

 

The Emperors admitting he made a deal with Chaos.

 

It's been implied, in the works around Moloch I believe, but I want him to say it, to solidify my theory that the series is really a classical tragedy, and everything is His fault. :)

[b1soul]

I do think the HH series has some excellent gems. The Butlerian Jihad trilogy was just plain bad...really bland writing with flat characters.

 

I'd also argue that the relationship between modern 40K and the HH is more like the relationship between modern Dune (Heretics and Chapter House) and the Leto II-era.

 

The relationship between either modern 40K or the HH and the late DAoT is like the relationship between either modern Dune or the Leto II-era and the Butlerian period.

 

Modern Dune still lives in the shadow of Leto II and many institutions span both periods...but the Butlerian period is truly unrecognizable.

[Marshal Loss]

 

yeah, if every major historical event is 'cos of perpetuals (including the emp) then it removes agency from baseline humanity to affect the world around them

Yeah, but that's only if they actually did live through those events. They could all be weapons left out of the same box, imbued with the memories of dead shaman souls or something. Totally delusional group of warp-spawned not-truly-human monsters. It's not even 100% clear if Oll & co ever leave the warp through most of their journey until they arrive on Terra, or if most of what they're seeing are warp delusions. Traveling through time, or traveling through what the warp is reflecting at you...?

 

At least that's my read, and I'm sticking to it, because it makes perpetuals tolerable for me

 

I like the cut of your jib

[Just123456]

 

like...each perpetual possibly is a collection of lived experiences of other people/perpetuals/shamen?

 

Sure! That's one way it could work. I'm not hard-set on nailing down what the Emperor is, or the perpetuals. I prefer it to be left open and to fill it with our weird perceptions. There are some really cool theories out there! I like trying to keep them in play, in spite of how much has been revealed lately.

 

 

Sounds like head canon to make a terrible addition bearable. :P

 

:whistling:

Doubtful. The DAOT notion is from a war criminal who was executed for stealing water, so she is unreliable and would purposefully mislead. And ADB discredited it on Reddit. And Oll Persson has things that prove the memories of The Perpetuals. And he was one of Jason's Argonauts.

 

The Cabal recruited Damon Prytanis at Iwo Jima. So the memories are real.

Edited April 30, 2021 by Just123456