Mortis

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

I finished it a bit ago and loved it.  The perpetual arc was a bit slow but still felt like it had its place.  It gave me the Imperial Knight perspective I have been asking for.  I say Shiban is going to find his way to be a Dread Biter.  

[Just123456]

Alright. Edited May 31, 2021 by Just123456

[Scribe]

I liked this way way more than I didn't. I'll have to think on it a bit and write up something more full tonight.

 

What is the nature of the Imperium and what is it built upon?

 

Was Horus right?

 

Was Scribe's pet theory right?

 

Tune in for random thoughts, later. :)

[Scribe]

So, Mortis. Stages of Death.

 

Kind of what this book feels like, from the onset, its a documentation of the death of the Imperium, step by step. I guess I want to go into spoilers so the 'non-spoiler' take?

 

I'm a French fan. Big time. This is a guy (1 of my big 3) who 'get' the setting. He gets it. He understands it. He can write it. I dont find his 'prose dense' or anything like that. I find it...just right.

 

9 (or 9.5 even) out of 10. I think this is one of the better books, honestly, and certainly is my current best SoT book, and...its actually not close. I actually wasnt even enraged by the Oll sections and have started to come around to what I think is his purpose.

 

So lets cover this piece by piece in some quick hitters. SPOILERS IN THE SPOILER.

 

Emperor Vision Scenes.

 

I'm a massive fan of the metaphysical scenes. I see this as a representation of his declining reserve of power. When Malcador comes to bring him power, but has to keep some for the trip back, that makes it pretty clear. Everything about these scenes are good.

 

The dialogue with Horus however is the part that is best. There is no denial from the Emperor, and its just more 'proof' that he made a deal with the powers of the Warp.

 

Oll scenes.

 

More useless stuff UNTIL they get to Paradise. At that point we are seeing some development, finally, for Oll.

 

As I read through this, I found that my issue wasnt with Oll, but with how he has been presented so far. I really, REALLY, REALLY, hated that he was a 'faithful Catholic' in the year of our Lord, 30,000 and change. Hate isnt even a strong enough word for the revulsion I felt at that revelation.

 

None of that is present in this book, and its all the better for it.

 

What does the revelation that Oll was his Warmaster do?

 

First, its a repetition, which we have seen with other story elements.

Second, it establishes Oll as a meaningful character by association with the Emperor.

Third, he BETRAYERS the Emperor, when the Emperor makes it clear that His arrogance, His will, His Plan, trumps all.

 

This, is actual development that is central to the story, and is what was missing the entire time from the perpetual arc. I dont care that Oll was an argo. That is meaningless. That Ol was part of the Emperor's history and development? That matters. Why?

 

Well because again, I feel the HH, the whole of 40K really, is centered on the Emperor, and Oll is best used as a way to explore the Emperor, without us having a 1st person experience of the Emperor himself, as we saw in Master of Mankind.

 

So yeah.

 

Shiban - Loved this. This is how Marines should function within the setting. Broken, but unable to accept anything but victory or death. No step backwards. The conclusion to this arc as far as this book goes, was emotional. French gets this setting.

 

The Imperials. Great cross section. Loyalty, Betrayal, Madness, Infighting. French nails it.

 

The corruption. Fantastic stuff. The madness setting in, the exhaustion, the breakdown.

 

The Faith. This is where things start to get wild.

 

So, we know the Emperor is not a God, or Warp Power.

We know the 'heretics' like Keeler, think he is a God, but not a Warp Power.

We know that the powers of Chaos, are essentially 'divine' as far as Humans are concerned.

We know that the BELIEF in the Emperor as God, impacts the Warp!

 

This is the roots of the God-Emperor, and the power of faith in the setting, which is simply projection and reflection on the Warp itself. Great. No problems whatsoever.

 

The Titan Legions.

 

I'm a fan of big robots. I've been such since Original Battletech, way back. I love Knights and Titans. I loved how the people were described. I love the schism with the Ad Mech. I love the Incandecance. I love that its got this weird interplay with the Warp, Omnissiah, and all that. I loved the Psi-Titans, and their sections.

 

*chef kiss*

 

Even the Dark Angels, I felt are handled right!

 

So yeah maybe I'm wrong, but this is my off the cuff thoughts, after taking my dog out, and its easily one of my favorite HH books.

 

I think with the next 2, will reflect the HH climax.

[Just123456]

 

And did you get my latest post to you?

 

:tu: I got you.

Alright. Edited June 1, 2021 by Just123456

[Just123456]

So, Mortis. Stages of Death.

 

Kind of what this book feels like, from the onset, its a documentation of the death of the Imperium, step by step. I guess I want to go into spoilers so the 'non-spoiler' take?

 

I'm a French fan. Big time. This is a guy (1 of my big 3) who 'get' the setting. He gets it. He understands it. He can write it. I dont find his 'prose dense' or anything like that. I find it...just right.

 

9 (or 9.5 even) out of 10. I think this is one of the better books, honestly, and certainly is my current best SoT book, and...its actually not close. I actually wasnt even enraged by the Oll sections and have started to come around to what I think is his purpose.

 

So lets cover this piece by piece in some quick hitters. SPOILERS IN THE SPOILER.

 

Emperor Vision Scenes.

 

I'm a massive fan of the metaphysical scenes. I see this as a representation of his declining reserve of power. When Malcador comes to bring him power, but has to keep some for the trip back, that makes it pretty clear. Everything about these scenes are good.

 

The dialogue with Horus however is the part that is best. There is no denial from the Emperor, and its just more 'proof' that he made a deal with the powers of the Warp.

 

Oll scenes.

 

More useless stuff UNTIL they get to Paradise. At that point we are seeing some development, finally, for Oll.

 

As I read through this, I found that my issue wasnt with Oll, but with how he has been presented so far. I really, REALLY, REALLY, hated that he was a 'faithful Catholic' in the year of our Lord, 30,000 and change. Hate isnt even a strong enough word for the revulsion I felt at that revelation.

 

None of that is present in this book, and its all the better for it.

 

What does the revelation that Oll was his Warmaster do?

 

First, its a repetition, which we have seen with other story elements.

Second, it establishes Oll as a meaningful character by association with the Emperor.

Third, he BETRAYERS the Emperor, when the Emperor makes it clear that His arrogance, His will, His Plan, trumps all.

 

This, is actual development that is central to the story, and is what was missing the entire time from the perpetual arc. I dont care that Oll was an argo. That is meaningless. That Ol was part of the Emperor's history and development? That matters. Why?

 

Well because again, I feel the HH, the whole of 40K really, is centered on the Emperor, and Oll is best used as a way to explore the Emperor, without us having a 1st person experience of the Emperor himself, as we saw in Master of Mankind.

 

So yeah.

 

Shiban - Loved this. This is how Marines should function within the setting. Broken, but unable to accept anything but victory or death. No step backwards. The conclusion to this arc as far as this book goes, was emotional. French gets this setting.

 

The Imperials. Great cross section. Loyalty, Betrayal, Madness, Infighting. French nails it.

 

The corruption. Fantastic stuff. The madness setting in, the exhaustion, the breakdown.

 

The Faith. This is where things start to get wild.

 

So, we know the Emperor is not a God, or Warp Power.

We know the 'heretics' like Keeler, think he is a God, but not a Warp Power.

We know that the powers of Chaos, are essentially 'divine' as far as Humans are concerned.

We know that the BELIEF in the Emperor as God, impacts the Warp!

 

This is the roots of the God-Emperor, and the power of faith in the setting, which is simply projection and reflection on the Warp itself. Great. No problems whatsoever.

 

The Titan Legions.

 

I'm a fan of big robots. I've been such since Original Battletech, way back. I love Knights and Titans. I loved how the people were described. I love the schism with the Ad Mech. I love the Incandecance. I love that its got this weird interplay with the Warp, Omnissiah, and all that. I loved the Psi-Titans, and their sections.

 

*chef kiss*

 

Even the Dark Angels, I felt are handled right!

 

So yeah maybe I'm wrong, but this is my off the cuff thoughts, after taking my dog out, and its easily one of my favorite HH books.

 

I think with the next 2, will reflect the HH climax.

I love the review.

Edited June 1, 2021 by Just123456

[grailkeeper]

I'm about halfway through. I'm not enjoying it. If it weren't part of a series I'd probably have skipped it.

 

There's a lot going on with many different POV stories. I find this pretty confusing as its very hard to keep track of who is who and what they are doing. Parts of it are written in a dream like fugue state which doesnt help. That's a technique I'm not a fan of. The separate storylines have nothing to do with each other. I know as part of a multi author series he has to progress some stuff for other authors books, but where they don't interact at all it is hard to be drawn in. The only storyline that has any clear purpose is the Titan one. The White Scar and Oll Persson's crew are just sort of wandering about. The Dark Angels seem to be there because a future book will need Dark Angels. I am finding it hard to sympathise with the titan crews. Maybe titans have been done a bit too much recently for my tastes.

 

I'm struggling to care about anything that happens. The only reason I'm ploughing through is so that I wont be confused at any changes brought in when I get to the other author's book.

Edited June 2, 2021 by grailkeeper

[Taliesin]

Its very funny how diverse the views are on this book and several others in the SoT series. Only Saturnine and Solar War seem to have met with more than a 70% approval rate.

[Scribe]

I think its due to how unfocused the main series was. It didnt even know what story it was trying to tell.

[grailkeeper]

The bits said about religion were pretty good.

 

Thinking about it. The different story lines have so little to do with each other they could be released on their own as individual novellas and none would suffer for being separated from the rest.

 

Your point on lack of focus is fair Scribe.

 

If you like stuff that's a hazy search through metaphor and pyschic environments this might be more up your alley. If you want marines fighting this isn't for you.

[DukeLeto69]

While I agree the whole HH series could have done with some tighter focus, I think it is clear the problem comes down yo whether HH was considered a story or a setting. I think BL flip flopped around on this.

 

Imagine mashing up Band of Brothers and Pacific and then also throwing in Saving Private Ryan, Thin Red Line, and a few other films (sleepy so can’t think off top of my head). It will all be about WWII, but won’t/can’t have a single storyline. And that is about a war on a single planet (similarish timescale 6 vs 7 yrs).

[Petitioner's City]

While I agree the whole HH series could have done with some tighter focus, I think it is clear the problem comes down yo whether HH was considered a story or a setting. I think BL flip flopped around on this.

 

Imagine mashing up Band of Brothers and Pacific and then also throwing in Saving Private Ryan, Thin Red Line, and a few other films (sleepy so can’t think off top of my head). It will all be about WWII, but won’t/can’t have a single storyline. And that is about a war on a single planet (similarish timescale 6 vs 7 yrs).

Good metaphor, although all those are from the american-side films (and lacks Casablanca, To Be or Not to Be, the Great Dictator, Tora Tora Tora!, Letters from Iwo Jima, Hell in the Pacific, the Inglorious Bastards, etc). You'd be adding in Soviet union films (Ivan's Childhoods At Dawn it's quiet here, torpedo bombers, come and see, the cranes are flying, Kanal, etc), british films (A Matter of Life and Death especially! but also The Great Escape, Cross of Iron, the Keep, the King's Speech, The Dig, Empire of the Sun, Bridge on the River Kwai, Listen to Britain & Fires were Started), French films (Night and Fog, Shoah, Andy of Shadows, Days of Glory, about north African soldiers), German films (Der Untergang, Stalingrad, Das Boot, 'Germany, Pale Mother'), Hungarian films (Son of Saul), Italian films (Rome, Open City), greek films, Chinese films (Red Sorghum, Devils on the Doorstep, etc), Taiwanese-authored films (Lust, Caution), Japanese films (merry Christmas Mr Lawrence, the wind rises, grave of the fireflies, etc), Australian films, Canadian films and so on.

 

Actually the weakness shows some of the failure of the HH as setting - too many films about battles, not enough about the war beyond the war. Many of the best ww2 films and stories are less about the front-line than the life changed because of the war (Casablanca, of course, but Der Untergang, From Here to Eternity, Life is Beautiful, Escape to Victory, The Pianist, Schindler's List, Millions Like Us, etc) or even the after effects (Tokyo Story, for example).

 

Thinking globally and all those criss-crossing, almost contradictory perspectives about that war (even when it begins, is it 1933 if you are in Manchuria; it is 1941 if you are American; etc) and when it ends (may 1945, August 1945, or much longer after in the Greek Civil War, the end of the Chinese civil war, etc).

 

Really great metaphor Duke Leto!

 

Sources for this post:

https://mubi.com/lists/british-ww2-films

https://www.esquire.com/entertainment/movies/g3476/best-world-war-2-movies-of-all-time/

https://www.timeout.com/london/film/50-best-world-war-ii-movies

https://www.routledge.com/Chinese-and-Japanese-Films-on-the-Second-World-War/Tam-Tsu-Wilson/p/book/9781138577091

Etc...

[DukeLeto69]

@Petitioners’s City - nice list of films. Absolutely right. Mash up all those different viewpoints and flip antagonist/protagonist view points.

 

There are a multitude of films and TV series in the “setting” of WWII so ostensibly all about the same thing but as a whole lacking focus.

 

Band of Brothers is a (episodic) story following roughly the same characters throughout all the episodes (some drop into supporting roles) on their journey from A to Z. That maintains focus.

 

Arguably Pacific (for me) works less well as it switches episodes between completely different characters and events in the war in the Pacific (still very good indeed but I was less invested in the characters as spent less time with them). In a way it is less of a story and more of a setting.

Edited June 4, 2021 by DukeLeto69

[Petitioner's City]

Indeed, that seems a clear choice in The Pacific - to embrace the consequences of its name, the scale of the campaign.

 

Bruce C McKenna, the showrunner of TP and a writer on BoB (his scripts were 'Replacements', 'Bastogne' and 'The Last Patrol'), talks about his two mandates for the series from his first meeting with Spielberg in this interview (namely, to be epic but intimate, and to not blink):

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vf7a5N1-UDk

 

It was also sourced from multiple books, unlike the more direct adaptation of Ambrose's Band of Brothers.

 

In a separate interview with History.net, McKenna talks about the scope too:

 

 

HN: Apart from the unique bond between men depending on each other in combat, The Pacific is a very different situation from that in Band of Brothers. What were some of the unique challenges The Pacific gave you as a writer?

 

BCM: Band of Brothers was easier. We were working from one source. The Pacific is much grimmer. If you want to know what war does to young men, this is it. Fortunately, we picked books that are very honest.

The writing challenge of The Pacific was the vastness of the campaign. No single group of men went through the entire war.

Steven Spielberg told me he wanted to portray the entire story of the Pacific War from Pearl Harbor to the men coming home, but he also wanted it to be more intense and personal than Band of Brothers. That’s really a challenge, but that’s the definition of an epic. We had to tell the whole story of the war through individual stories. Like the Traffic miniseries, we had to have stories that touched on each other.

I had to do a lot more research on this one. That’s why it took so long to bring it out. I worked from beginning to end with Steven Ambrose’s son Hugh, who wrote the companion book to the series. We never stopped doing research even when on set after filming began.

We brought in many of the same team that helped produce Band of Brothers, so everybody on it had been down this road before. The real challenge was writing it. We didn’t want to just do “Band of Brothers under the palm trees.” We wanted to say something different, to show that experience of men at war and the effect it has on them.

The job of the dramatist is to move people to pity and terror so they reflect on their own lives. I hope The Pacific did that; I spent seven years working on this thing.

 

HN: The historical situation in the Pacific War was very different from the backdrop of Band of Brothers. You had to depict scenes that sometimes show absolute barbarity.

 

BCM: Some of the combat sequences are extremely graphic. People are going to have a hard time watching at times. It is much more violent than Band of Brothers. But there is not a single gratuitous act of violence. Every act has a direct effect on the men involved and it accumulates over time. We show some really horrific things and none of it is gratuitous.

As with Band of Brothers, some people are going to like it, some aren’t. There’s only one subgroup who I really, really care about what they think, and that is the men—and now women—who have been to combat. It’s their experience I am trying to depict. That’s who I’m trying to get it right for.

We have to compress events, merge characters. I’m very proud we were able to do this without sacrificing the truth we were telling.

What I’m proud of is the truth of the show—what happens to the souls of men in war, in a necessary war that we had to win. Combat vets who have seen the series are very appreciative of the fact that we got it right.

 

HN: In episode eight, you tell the story of the wartime romance between Marine sergeants John Basilone and Lena Riggi. What parallels or differences do you see between their story and romances and marriages involving service personnel during today’s wars in Afghanistan and Iraq?

 

BCM: I think modern warriors of today will recognize and be moved by the story of John and Lena Basilone. We really worked hard, did as much research as we could to get their story right. We interviewed people who had known John and Lena. You know, Lena never remarried although she and John had very little time together. She died with her wedding ring still on her hand and John’s picture in her purse. It is a statement of how intense those relationships could be.

I think service people and their families today will recognize that. Your loved one can be taken away from you and sent away for a year at a time and may not come home.

A lot of fans of Band of Brothers just want to see combat, but war is a crucible in which all emotions are boiled up. That part of the story is huge. When men are at war they depend heavily on the women they are in love with. When that is taken away from them, it is very hard on them. When Robert Lecke’s Greek girlfriend ends their relationship, he begins a downward spiral into blackness.

This is not just a miniseries about combat. It’s a miniseries about war. And war involves mothers and daughters and girlfriends and children and all of society. For dramatists war is the greatest story ever invented because the stakes are so high, not just for warriors but for everybody.

 

HN: In an interview on HistoryNet‘s partner site ArmchairGeneral, Captain Dale Dye, the military advisor on The Pacific, said he likes to go in very early on a project to work with the writers from the beginning. Did the two of you work together?

 

BCM: No, not at the beginning. He may have had other projects, but he didn’t come in until we were ready to green light production. We did work together all through filming in Australia, though. Dale vetted all the scripts and was very helpful.

 

HN: Tell us a little about some of your other writing activities—your book, The Pena Files, and the production work you and your wife, Maureen, did on plays like Neil LaBute’s Filthy Talk for Troubled Times.

 

BCM: When I dropped out of grad school I was a freelance writer in New York. I wrote for magazines, including a story about Pena. These are great experiences for a writer. You learn your craft, you learn how to write on deadline. When I was “seduced by the lights of Hollywood” and went to LA those experiences gave me an advantage.

I was asked in an interview, “When did you know you’d made it in Hollywood?” I said, “When you find out, call me.”

It’s a constant struggle; you can never relax. I keep the whole experience at arm’s length and take nothing for granted. I regard every job as my first job. If you get complacent, you’re done.

 

One comment I enjoy is at the end of McKenna's Wesleyan interview - a writer has to be saying something, especially a war writer because it is a fulcrum in which all human emotions occur. I do wonder - what is the Siege saying, or what are the Siege books (and the wider Heresy books) saying?

 

I definitely don't think they each need to be all saying the same thing, and I do believe that across that wide array they can say many different, discordant, contradictory things (which is why I love your 'this is like the WW2 genre' metaphor and why I thought immediately to the many many different traditions of WW2 film which map onto well the many different possibilities across a galaxy) - but are our authors attempting to say big (and/or little) things or not? And is that what readers sometimes struggle with, be it Gav's African regiment, the Olianus plot in Mortis, etc., since they move away from a more direct narrative expectation?

Edited June 4, 2021 by Petitioner's City

[DukeLeto69]

Nice work thanks for that

[Doghouse]

I really liked the Perturabo stuff but on the whole it was a hard read. I think the problem for me is that the Siege series feels like I just finished a huge steak dinner, felt content and I'm sat waiting for the bill to arrive then someone slaps down a massive ice cream sunday in front of me and is trying to convince me to finish it.

 

At this point I am now just sifting through it looking for points of novelty or new twists that come up rather than showing any interest in the main story. 

[Just123456]

 

And did you get my latest post to you?

 

:tu: I got you.

Though when ADB talked about his dead friend being fond of it, he did not mean that they viewed it as feasible. He put it in the book as a cheeky nod to his friend.

[bluntblade]

I'm surprised more people don't talk about Ignatum in this. Like, finally a Legio with personality again, and they outstrip Audax by a solid margin. They're every bit as grandiose and out-there as people who've been riding Titans to war for centuries ought to be.

[Scribe]

I'm surprised more people don't talk about Ignatum in this. Like, finally a Legio with personality again, and they outstrip Audax by a solid margin. They're every bit as grandiose and out-there as people who've been riding Titans to war for centuries ought to be.

Agreed, loved them.

[Just123456]

So, any of you fine people read Mortis?

 

It's the fifth Siege of Terra book and I really liked it. Most seem to disagree though. Thoughts?

How you did not know Oll Persson was one of Jason's Argonauts in older books? Edited July 22, 2021 by Just123456

[nagashnee]

 

So, any of you fine people read Mortis?

 

It's the fifth Siege of Terra book and I really liked it. Most seem to disagree though. Thoughts?

How come you did not know Oll Persson was one of Jason's Argonauts in older books? That is a basic fact when it concerns the Perpetuals.

 

Many of us just block the Perpetuals from our minds when reading the siege books. One of the good things of the books is it gives enough of everything so people can focus on the aspects they enjoy ( tho abit more non palace centred Terra action would have been nice), i do it with a few BL books, i kinda forget/not focus on the b plots i dont care for and just carry on.

[Scribe]

 

So, any of you fine people read Mortis?

 

It's the fifth Siege of Terra book and I really liked it. Most seem to disagree though. Thoughts?

How come you did not know Oll Persson was one of Jason's Argonauts in older books? That is a basic fact when it concerns the Perpetuals.

It's a meaningless fact.

[mc warhammer]

Was there...something...in the quoted post from Roomsky implying he didn't know about the argonaut thingamy? Am I missing it?

 

I'm like nagashee in this instance; if it's not particularly interesting to me I'll tend to gloss over or forget it. If it weren't for this thread I'd be blissfully unaware of Ol's questing for wool.

 

[Just123456]

Roomsky said Theseus was apparently real since Oll Persson meets him while time traveling and was an old friend of his. That is to be expected since Oll Persson was one of Jason's Argonauts. Edited June 12, 2021 by Just123456

[Just123456]

Was there...something...in the quoted post from Roomsky implying he didn't know about the argonaut thingamy? Am I missing it?

 

I'm like nagashee in this instance; if it's not particularly interesting to me I'll tend to gloss over or forget it. If it weren't for this thread I'd be blissfully unaware of Ol's questing for wool.

 

 

 

You can find Oll Persson being one of Jason's Argonauts on Lexicanum. People bring up Oll Persson being one of Jason's Argonauts to show he is Christian even though he was around before Christ. Edited June 12, 2021 by Just123456