Mortis

[Lucerne]

The Siege is everything wrong with the Heresy in a nutshell:

1) Lack of "main plot" and side plot/anthology" separation.

2) Bad pacing

3)Incompetent writers and unqualified writers given key plot points.

4)Too much pointless filler and D-plots that simultaneously manage to not cover key plot element.

5)idiot ball being passed back and forth like a game of beach volleyball.

6)Generally taking a grand epic of demigods and turning it into a black comedy that meanders to a hault.

7)Guilliman fixation while cutting Horus out of his own heresy

 

etc etc

 

at this point just give up on the Siege, read the writers that are worth a damn in it, and wait for FW to detangle this mess.

[Marshal Rohr]

Unless I’m just totally mistaken The Hollow Mountain was conceptualized and put to print AFTER the writers had started planning the siege and the first books had started to be written. The idea of it being away from the palace and needing to be defended was a later development. Not to mention the Psyker battery walls mentioned in MoM are in the palace and not the Hollow Mountain.

[Scribe]

Unless I’m just totally mistaken The Hollow Mountain was conceptualized and put to print AFTER the writers had started planning the siege and the first books had started to be written. The idea of it being away from the palace and needing to be defended was a later development. Not to mention the Psyker battery walls mentioned in MoM are in the palace and not the Hollow Mountain.

So much for having a plan I guess.

[DukeLeto69]

The old lore that I came up with and found interesting was it was the Dark Angels and Space Wolves coming that panicked Horus and caused the end of the siege. The Ultramarines weren’t even a thought until after the siege and they took the lead on the scouring. It made sense too because the Word Bearers plan was to cripple the Ultramarines. Obviously all of this is retconned and a nothingburger now. Especially considering the freaking Blood Angels were WITH the Dark Angels and Ultramarines.

 

Also. Having Russ AT Terra, then leaving with his whole legion and beating Horus in a fight, only to then go away and keep the stage the same as it was anyway really cheapens the Siege before it’s even started.

 

I just really question so many of the decisions in the HH and SoT it’s hard to get into. Even knowing all this stuff is made up and subject to change and further detail. It’s like a kids drawing of a car and before long there’s a rocket ship, skyscraper, and swimming pool attached to it because it’s aWeSoMe.

 

Eh, anyway, get off my lawn and all that.

Good points.

 

I am clearly one of those who argues that the HH lore was never set and it is the BL books and Forgeworld books that now do define the lore in more details than the sketchy and incoherent Visions material.

 

However, that is not to say I don’t think some of the decisions have been...questionable!

 

For example, the Imperium Secundus idea does, at first, seem like a pretty cool idea to me. I liked it until I started to realise some of the ramifications to what comes next!

 

I know it has been explained but it doesn’t sit comfortably (with me) that the Ultramarines, Blood Angels and Dark Angels were all together in Ultramar but do not then all break through to Terra together for...reasons! Would have worked better (for me) if the Blood Angels had not been part of Imperium Secundus and spent years fighting through the Ruinstorm to get to Terra with no knowledge of the UMs/DAs and what they are up to!

 

Equally Russ and the Wolves doing the okey cokey!

 

Then again, some folks might love all that!

[DukeLeto69]

The Siege is everything wrong with the Heresy in a nutshell:

1) Lack of "main plot" and side plot/anthology" separation.

2) Bad pacing

3)Incompetent writers and unqualified writers given key plot points.

4)Too much pointless filler and D-plots that simultaneously manage to not cover key plot element.

5)idiot ball being passed back and forth like a game of beach volleyball.

6)Generally taking a grand epic of demigods and turning it into a black comedy that meanders to a hault.

7)Guilliman fixation while cutting Horus out of his own heresy

 

etc etc

 

at this point just give up on the Siege, read the writers that are worth a damn in it, and wait for FW to detangle this mess.

Frater I would suggest you don’t hold back and say how you really feel LOL

 

Good points BTW.

[Fedor]

I won't be holding out hope for Forgeworld saving the day. That's already a very different approach which can compliment greatly but never truly replace, and one in which the tone has drifted into semi-marketing/over the top bigging up of the models its release is supporting. Crusade was at least as flawed as any recent siege/HH book.

[Noserenda]

Ah good news for me at least, i assumed the capture of the astronomicon just fell down a hole in my brain, some times plot holes are reassuring :D 

[MillionsSons]

 

 

For example, the Imperium Secundus idea does, at first, seem like a pretty cool idea to me. I liked it until I started to realise some of the ramifications to what comes next!

 

Imperium secundus is the worst for me.

First it doesn’t make any sense. They dont know whether Terra fell but feel like creating another imperium... and discuss about which should be crowned... lol. Ridiculous.

And then all these twist and turns with Konrad (he’s bad and kills my space marines but somehow I dont kill him etc...)

[Kelborn]

=][=

 

Both Mortis related threads were merged together as the spoiler covering topics can still be discussed in here.

 

=][=

Edited July 30, 2021 by Kelborn

[Just123456]

When will Dan Abnett get to the last book? A year to two years? And most of the Siege of Terra books are fine, but only about two of them come close to the best Horus Heresy books. I was fine with most of the Siege of Terra books. Edited August 6, 2021 by Just123456

[Bobss]

When will Dan Abnett get to the last book? A year to two years? And most of the Siege of Terra book are fine, but only about two of them come close to the best Horus Heresy books. I was fine with most of the Siege of Terra books.

 

Second half of 2022 is my bet

[Just123456]

 

When will Dan Abnett get to the last book? A year to two years? And most of the Siege of Terra book are fine, but only about two of them come close to the best Horus Heresy books. I was fine with most of the Siege of Terra books.

 

Second half of 2022 is my bet

The Siege of Terra books are good (most of them), but not as good as the best Horus Heresy books. Edited August 6, 2021 by Just123456

[Just123456]

The theme of Saturnine is deceit, so Erda might have lied.

[Scribe]

The theme of Saturnine is deceit, so Erda might have lied.

 

It is? What plot lines were about deceit?

[SkimaskMohawk]

Abbaddon's; at the end he thinks Perturabo tricked him into choosing to assault the saturnine flaw. For some reason.

[Sothalor]

Well, there's the whole Saturnine Wall gambit, which is Rogal Dorn making a desperate gambit to draw a Sons of Horus spearhead attack by making them think they've spotted a weakness he was unaware of.

 

There's the debate on which of their defenses they need to sacrifice to pull it off and how they need to deceive both the attackers and their own defenders so as not to give any hint that something else is going on.

 

There's the whole debate Harri Harr and Olly Piers have about the nature of myth, belief, faith, foundational narratives, and how much it matters whether such is factual or not.

 

The book opens with Sindermann ruminating on the nature of the universe they inhabit and how they'd all been sold a lie by the Emperor and for what reason he could have done so.

 

If anything, Abaddon's plotline is one of self-deceit - one last grasping effort at selling the lie to himself that the war is still a Legion one, that it's about a political uprising seeking regime change against a tyrant, one that can be won quick and clean by virtue of the old ways.

 

 

Really, if one were to try to assign themes to these novels, there's decent evidence for deceit in its myriad forms and Saturnine.

[Scribe]

Those are all good examples.

[Just123456]

Those are all good examples.

People need to look at the context of books before prattling. Not doing that is what caused people to think the Emperor doesn't give two craps about the Primarchs and that he was built in the DAOT when those things in context are from unreliable narrators. And being given no context on who Basilio Fo was caused people to take him seriously when he said the Emperor was full of poo on not wanting to be viewed as a god. And everything Erda said, minus what she said about Oll Persson being the oldest Perpetual and that the Perpetuals have been appearing for the last 45,000 years, is unreliable.

Edited August 12, 2021 by Just123456

[Scribe]

 

Those are all good examples.

People need to look at the context of books before prattling. Not doing that is what caused people to think the Emperor doesn't give two craps about the Primarchs and that he was built in the DAOT when those things in context are from unreliable narrators. And being given no context on who Basilio Fo was caused people to take him seriously when he said the Emperor was full of poo on not wanting to be viewed as a god. And everything Erda said, minus what she said about Oll Persson being the oldest Perpetual and that the Perpetuals have been appearing for the last 45,000 years, is questionable.

And these are not good examples? I'm not sure you are saying here.

[Just123456]

 

 

Those are all good examples.

People need to look at the context of books before prattling. Not doing that is what caused people to think the Emperor doesn't give two craps about the Primarchs and that he was built in the DAOT when those things in context are from unreliable narrators. And being given no context on who Basilio Fo was caused people to take him seriously when he said the Emperor was full of poo on not wanting to be viewed as a god. And everything Erda said, minus what she said about Oll Persson being the oldest Perpetual and that the Perpetuals have been appearing for the last 45,000 years, is questionable.

And these are not good examples? I'm not sure you are saying here.

People talking things as fact when only skimming through books and looking at spoilers that have no context. One would be the Emperor labeling the Primarchs as numbers and it might look to be clear but digging deeper shows the Emperor only said that to certain characters in unreliable fasion and everything else. And you got what Erda said about the scattering and the Perpetuals. Edited August 12, 2021 by Just123456

[Scribe]

Erda is irrelevant as of the current story progress. French actually made Oll matter, so that's nice.

 

Are you trying to say the Emperor cares about the Primarchs??

[Just123456]

Erda is irrelevant as of the current story progress. French actually made Oll matter, so that's nice.

Are you trying to say the Emperor cares about the Primarchs??

Yeah. Well, we know he cares about humanity, as John French explains that in the afterword of The Solar War. And we won't know what he thinks of his children until the last book, but people need to understand context. Even his talk with Guilliman is after suffering Lovecraftian agony for 11,000 years. Edited August 12, 2021 by Just123456

[Just123456]

Alright. Edited August 12, 2021 by Just123456

[Scribe]

 

Erda is irrelevant as of the current story progress. French actually made Oll matter, so that's nice.

Are you trying to say the Emperor cares about the Primarchs??

Yeah. Well, we know he cares about humanity, as John French explains that in the afterword of The Solar War. And we won't know what he thinks of his children until the last book, but people need to understand context. Even his talk with Guilliman is after suffering Lovecraftian agony for 11,000 years.

I'd have to look at what French said in the afterword, but no, we have no reason to suspect the Emperor cares about individuals, at all.

 

I don't care what he said to Rob in some present day interaction while he sits on the edge of life, death, and godhood.

 

I'm talking about Heresy era.

[Just123456]

 

 

Erda is irrelevant as of the current story progress. French actually made Oll matter, so that's nice.

Are you trying to say the Emperor cares about the Primarchs??

Yeah. Well, we know he cares about humanity, as John French explains that in the afterword of The Solar War. And we won't know what he thinks of his children until the last book, but people need to understand context. Even his talk with Guilliman is after suffering Lovecraftian agony for 11,000 years.

I'd have to look at what French said in the afterword, but no, we have no reason to suspect the Emperor cares about individuals, at all.

I don't care what he said to Rob in some present day interaction while he sits on the edge of life, death, and godhood.

I'm talking about Heresy era.

I was talking about humanity as a species. John French said the Emperor views triumphing over the age old darkness that stalks humanity as ULTIMATE victory and that he is cornered with the fact he did not save humanity, but doomed us.