[HH] Alpharius - Head of the Hydra

[Charlo]

My personal favorite bit is that the book takes all 3 rumours presented in FW's HH3 (right?) regarding the origin of Alpharius and manages to mesh all 3 together into a single story that works. It also explains why the XXth was singled out as a special Legion (again, per FW's blackbooks series), so fits very well with the existing material.

Of course, this is the XXth, so we know it's all veiled falsehoodsb and half-truths...

Same, absolutely brilliant.

 

and even after all that can you truly say which one was which?

[Azaiel]

I enjoyed it aswell, loved the two first sentences.

[Marshal Rohr]

Alpharius is hands down top three Primarchs novels. Brooks killed it.

[DukeLeto69]

Alpharius is hands down top three Primarchs novels. Brooks killed it.

He’s a great writer

[mc warhammer]

it goes hand in hand with council of truth by the same writer. reading them together, you get a pretty good idea of the twins approach to truth.

Edited December 12, 2021 by mc warhammer

[Bulwyf]

This was an absolutely entertaining novel. You can either accept as true or ignore it as you see fit since there is probably no more better example of an untrustworthy narrator than Alpharius. 

 

There is a no spoiler question I have for those that have read this and other Alpha Legion novels. Why do basically all the other Legions look down their nose at how the AL operates? Why waste your men and resources if you don't have to do so? I've always admired and frankly agreed with primarchs like Alpharius and Konrad Curze that used tactics to lower their own losses and actually speed up complaince/victories with fewer enemy losses than other legions.

 

Imagine how the World Eaters/Space Wolves, heck frankly all but two Legions fight. Then look at Alpha Legion in this instance. They achieve the same ends with fewer casualties for all involved and heck a good number of times the opponent never even realized the Alpha Legion was involved.

Why was this not embraced more by his brothers? Why didn't the Emperor hold them up as an example of "hey why beat your head against the wall when you can tunnel beneath it?" thinking. 

[Moonreaper666]

This was an absolutely entertaining novel. You can either accept as true or ignore it as you see fit since there is probably no more better example of an untrustworthy narrator than Alpharius.

 

There is a no spoiler question I have for those that have read this and other Alpha Legion novels. Why do basically all the other Legions look down their nose at how the AL operates? Why waste your men and resources if you don't have to do so? I've always admired and frankly agreed with primarchs like Alpharius and Konrad Curze that used tactics to lower their own losses and actually speed up complaince/victories with fewer enemy losses than other legions.

 

Imagine how the World Eaters/Space Wolves, heck frankly all but two Legions fight. Then look at Alpha Legion in this instance. They achieve the same ends with fewer casualties for all involved and heck a good number of times the opponent never even realized the Alpha Legion was involved.

Why was this not embraced more by his brothers? Why didn't the Emperor hold them up as an example of "hey why beat your head against the wall when you can tunnel beneath it?" thinking.

Because that same thinking can become an obssession. Different from the obsessions that corrupted the EC but still soul-eroding

 

It's why the Alpha Legion turned traitor and why they are 99.9% corrupt and 00.1% Anti-Imperial Renegade post-Heresy

[Bulwyf]

 

This was an absolutely entertaining novel. You can either accept as true or ignore it as you see fit since there is probably no more better example of an untrustworthy narrator than Alpharius.

 

There is a no spoiler question I have for those that have read this and other Alpha Legion novels. Why do basically all the other Legions look down their nose at how the AL operates? Why waste your men and resources if you don't have to do so? I've always admired and frankly agreed with primarchs like Alpharius and Konrad Curze that used tactics to lower their own losses and actually speed up complaince/victories with fewer enemy losses than other legions.

 

Imagine how the World Eaters/Space Wolves, heck frankly all but two Legions fight. Then look at Alpha Legion in this instance. They achieve the same ends with fewer casualties for all involved and heck a good number of times the opponent never even realized the Alpha Legion was involved.

Why was this not embraced more by his brothers? Why didn't the Emperor hold them up as an example of "hey why beat your head against the wall when you can tunnel beneath it?" thinking.

Because that same thinking can become an obssession. Different from the obsessions that corrupted the EC but still soul-eroding

 

It's why the Alpha Legion turned traitor and why they are 99.9% corrupt and 00.1% Anti-Imperial Renegade post-Heresy

 

 

I do not follow your reasoning. I read Legion which shows the AL turned traitor because they were shown the galaxy would either die out from all life due to Chaos or if the AL helped Horus win then Chaos would burn out quickly and only humanity would be wiped out. Faced with those two choices the AL decided to help Horus. Although there has been instances in the fluff where AL is also working against Chaos and working for the Imperium.

 

I know as a fan this is done intentionally to give players the justification to play AL however they want.

 

But to your point, I am not understanding your logic. Why would fighting in a more clever fashion make them turn to Chaos? Why is that soul corruption? The Space Wolves glorify in combat and yet they don't fall to Khorne or Chaos for instance. Why would the AL fighting style turn them to Chaos? I have never heard anyone say this before and I am  honestly curious to hear your logic on it.

[Roomsky]

 

Why was this not embraced more by his brothers? Why didn't the Emperor hold them up as an example of "hey why beat your head against the wall when you can tunnel beneath it?" thinking. 

 

Rogal brings up a specific example in Praetorian of Dorn - he posits that the Alpha Legion's espionage tactics make for a less permanent compliance because their victory is not proven to be absolute in simple terms for the populace. Rolling in with massive, overwhelming force puts the fear of the Emperor in the populace while also proving that any post-war reparations are sincere - the Imperium has no reason to go soft on their vassels for any reason beyond beneficence.

 

Alpharius and Kurze's methods make for a faster, less costly compliance but unintentionally imply the Imperium needs to use those methods to win - making eventual rebellion more likely. In Dorn's example, Alpharius murdered the planet's ruling families and sat on their throne, thereby advertising the Imperium as underhanded cowards who conveniently left behind all the infrastructure that could be used for a coup down the road.

[Bulwyf]

 

 

Why was this not embraced more by his brothers? Why didn't the Emperor hold them up as an example of "hey why beat your head against the wall when you can tunnel beneath it?" thinking. 

 

Rogal brings up a specific example in Praetorian of Dorn - he posits that the Alpha Legion's espionage tactics make for a less permanent compliance because their victory is not proven to be absolute in simple terms for the populace. Rolling in with massive, overwhelming force puts the fear of the Emperor in the populace while also proving that any post-war reparations are sincere - the Imperium has no reason to go soft on their vassels for any reason beyond beneficence.

 

Alpharius and Kurze's methods make for a faster, less costly compliance but unintentionally imply the Imperium needs to use those methods to win - making eventual rebellion more likely. In Dorn's example, Alpharius murdered the planet's ruling families and sat on their throne, thereby advertising the Imperium as underhanded cowards who conveniently left behind all the infrastructure that could be used for a coup down the road.

 

 

The Night Lords compliances rarely if ever rebelled after because of the fear they instilled into the populace. I am not sure how about AL. I can see that is what the other primarchs would say that you need to talk loudly AND carry a big stick to impress upon the natives how they should be scared of the Imperium in regards to your post. I totally agree with you that from the other primarchs except for Curze that is more or less their reasoning.

 

But post compliance isn't really the purview of the legions though. In fact only the NL were used as a terror shock legion to visit worlds that rebelled or were thinking about it. So for the AL for instance...they achieve compliance through "X" means...great...and then they leave. The responsibility of HOLDING the worlds loyal should have been under the High Lords umbrella since that is not a Legion matter.

[Noserenda]

Because most of the Primarchs (and Legions beneath them) fight like absolute idiots most of the time, winning only through native talent on the ground and raw overwhelming force with mountains of casualties. Ultimately its Sci-fantasy which typically means sensible planning and strategy go out the window except by accident

Honestly i would love a short story showing some lower ranking officers or even Imperial army actually running campaigns when the official generals are off in a shield wall or generally stabbing random enemy mooks.

Edited March 25, 2022 by Noserenda

[Moonreaper666]

Because most of the Primarchs (and Legions beneath them) fight like absolute idiots most of the time, winning only through native talent on the ground and raw overwhelming force with mountains of casualties. Ultimately its Sci-fantasy which typically means sensible planning and strategy go out the window except by accident

 

Honestly i would love a short story showing some lower ranking officers or even Imperial army actually running campaigns when the official generals are off in a shield wall or generally stabbing random enemy mooks.

Due to how Space Marines can run 65mph while making perfect headshots without stopping at all for over a week without food, water or rest different tactics and results

 

During the Great Crusade the Death Guard took a very-heavily defended Hive World (Billions of defenders with LOTS of tanks) with very light casualties. None of the defenders, including women and children were spared. Their screams and pleadings heard throughout Radio/Auspex as they are shot and slaughtered throughout the 'battle'

 

Brutal, quick and effective. Three Mantras of the Great Crusade. I doubt Real Life weakling soldiers can take a heavily defended Hive World in such a brutal, direct way and get very successful results

 

A single Astarte is worth more than every Real Life Infantry, Artillery and Tank today!

[Petitioner's City]

 

 

 

 

 

Why was this not embraced more by his brothers? Why didn't the Emperor hold them up as an example of "hey why beat your head against the wall when you can tunnel beneath it?" thinking.

Rogal brings up a specific example in Praetorian of Dorn - he posits that the Alpha Legion's espionage tactics make for a less permanent compliance because their victory is not proven to be absolute in simple terms for the populace. Rolling in with massive, overwhelming force puts the fear of the Emperor in the populace while also proving that any post-war reparations are sincere - the Imperium has no reason to go soft on their vassels for any reason beyond beneficence.

 

Alpharius and Kurze's methods make for a faster, less costly compliance but unintentionally imply the Imperium needs to use those methods to win - making eventual rebellion more likely. In Dorn's example, Alpharius murdered the planet's ruling families and sat on their throne, thereby advertising the Imperium as underhanded cowards who conveniently left behind all the infrastructure that could be used for a coup down the road.

The Night Lords compliances rarely if ever rebelled after because of the fear they instilled into the populace.

Great question, Bulwyf, and this is something I guess will be clouded by our real world perceptions but also lead to a fascinating thread.

 

But also really curious, what evidence is there for NL-conquered worlds not really rebelling?

[Bulwyf]

 

 

 

 

Why was this not embraced more by his brothers? Why didn't the Emperor hold them up as an example of "hey why beat your head against the wall when you can tunnel beneath it?" thinking.

Rogal brings up a specific example in Praetorian of Dorn - he posits that the Alpha Legion's espionage tactics make for a less permanent compliance because their victory is not proven to be absolute in simple terms for the populace. Rolling in with massive, overwhelming force puts the fear of the Emperor in the populace while also proving that any post-war reparations are sincere - the Imperium has no reason to go soft on their vassels for any reason beyond beneficence.

 

Alpharius and Kurze's methods make for a faster, less costly compliance but unintentionally imply the Imperium needs to use those methods to win - making eventual rebellion more likely. In Dorn's example, Alpharius murdered the planet's ruling families and sat on their throne, thereby advertising the Imperium as underhanded cowards who conveniently left behind all the infrastructure that could be used for a coup down the road.

The Night Lords compliances rarely if ever rebelled after because of the fear they instilled into the populace.

Great question, Bulwyf, and this is something I guess will be clouded by our real world perceptions but also lead to a fascinating thread.

 

But also really curious, what evidence is there for NL-conquered worlds not really rebelling?

 

 

It was mentioned in various NL related items like Index Astartes, the Curze primarch novel and I think the HH book about the planet with the beacon that lured in the tyranids. What was that book called...Pharos? I think it is Pharos.  The NL prided themselves that their worlds after compliance stayed that way and that just hearing a NL fleet entered the system caused whole systems to surrender and be compliant. 

 

I realize we're starting to go off the subject of the novel slightly but since the book really does focus on AL tactics and world view versus the other legions I am glad you are enjoying the discussion. I really wish we had some snippets from the Emperor about which Legion method he personally agreed the most with. Taking fewer casualties while leaving worlds mostly intact after compliance would seem to me to be the ideal method of compliance.

[Sothalor]

RE. Alpharius and his tactics amongst the other Legiones:

 

It's worth bearing in mind that the Primarchs, the Legiones Astartes - for that matter, the Great Crusade and the nascent Imperium of Man in 30k - are not representative of modern mindsets and attitudes towards war, conflict, conquest, etc. They have far more in common with the warmakers of antiquity: Alexander, Leonidas, Hannibal, Scipio Africanus - combined with the larger-than-life heroes and demigods of mythology a la Hercules, Achilles, Aeneas, and Thor.

 

For some of the Primarchs, that disdain is rooted in cultural and personal prejudice. Angron, for example, is hardly going to conceive of warfare - or indeed near any other human interaction - in terms beyond "run straight forwards with axes in hand." There is an attitude within the Great Crusade that gives predominance of place and pride towards direct martial confrontation.

 

For other Primarchs like Guilliman, Dorn, probably Vulkan, and some others, there is also the reality that Alpharius and the Alpha Legion's methods are not driven by pragmatism and altruism. They're driven by a deep-seated, sociopathic, pathological need and showmanship. As Dorn points out in Praetorian of Dorn, the subterfuges and plots and sabotage and infiltration don't lead to smooth, efficient compliances.

 

Rather, they are needlessly malicious in their targeting, resulting in unnecessary collateral damage and long-term destabilization.

 

Furthermore, the Alpha Legion are antagonistic towards their own nominal allies, keeping other Imperial forces in the dark about battle plans, sacrificing them as bait when things could have been otherwise, and so on. That's not the kind of behavior that engenders good will over the long term.

 

 

As for the effectiveness of Curze and the Night Lords' tactics - does one really need an example beside Nostramo itself for an example of how well that worked?

Edited March 26, 2022 by Kelborn

[Kelborn]

Though it was to underline a statement, I'll not see real life examples/ references of current events being used in here.

 

That goes for everyone.

 

Thanks.

Edited March 26, 2022 by Kelborn

[Noserenda]

 

During the Great Crusade the Death Guard took a very-heavily defended Hive World (Billions of defenders with LOTS of tanks) with very light casualties. None of the defenders, including women and children were spared. Their screams and pleadings heard throughout Radio/Auspex as they are shot and slaughtered throughout the 'battle'

 

Which planet OOI? Sounds particularly out of character for Deathguard if im honest.

 

Yes Space marines are super soldiers, we all know that, seems irrelevant? 

 

RE. Alpharius and his tactics amongst the other Legiones:

 

It's worth bearing in mind that the Primarchs, the Legiones Astartes - for that matter, the Great Crusade and the nascent Imperium of Man in 30k - are not representative of modern mindsets and attitudes towards war, conflict, conquest, etc. They have far more in common with the warmakers of antiquity: Alexander, Leonidas, Hannibal, Scipio Africanus - combined with the larger-than-life heroes and demigods of mythology a la Hercules, Achilles, Aeneas, and Thor.

 

For some of the Primarchs, that disdain is rooted in cultural and personal prejudice. Angron, for example, is hardly going to conceive of warfare - or indeed near any other human interaction - in terms beyond "run straight forwards with axes in hand." There is an attitude within the Great Crusade that gives predominance of place and pride towards direct martial confrontation.

 

For other Primarchs like Guilliman, Dorn, probably Vulkan, and some others, there is also the reality that Alpharius and the Alpha Legion's methods are not driven by pragmatism and altruism. They're driven by a deep-seated, sociopathic, pathological need and showmanship. As Dorn points out in Praetorian of Dorn, the subterfuges and plots and sabotage and infiltration don't lead to smooth, efficient compliances.

 

Rather, they are needlessly malicious in their targeting, resulting in unnecessary collateral damage and long-term destabilization.

 

Furthermore, the Alpha Legion are antagonistic towards their own nominal allies, keeping other Imperial forces in the dark about battle plans, sacrificing them as bait when things could have been otherwise, and so on. That's not the kind of behavior that engenders good will over the long term.

 

 

Oh yeah the Alpha Legion are exactly as flawed as every else in the end, i do think its the inferiority complex that drives that though rather than malice exactly, at least at first. The problem being their initial successes are too subtle/efficient to be showy which eventually drives the later showboating in an effort to gain some recognition. Except that obviously doesnt work which drives ever more extreme examples, a classic downward spiral.

 

A lot of the Legions definitely do draw on more heroic fantasy and myth as i put, less well earlier :) 

 

 

 

 

The Night Lords compliances rarely if ever rebelled after because of the fear they instilled into the populace.

Great question, Bulwyf, and this is something I guess will be clouded by our real world perceptions but also lead to a fascinating thread.

 

But also really curious, what evidence is there for NL-conquered worlds not really rebelling?

 

Afaik the only sources are unreliable narrators, mostly the Night Lords themselves (Possibly the least reliable narrators :D ) but the events of the setting deliberately prove this false, as mentioned, their own homeworld being the prime example, which should have been the model planet if the Night Lords philosophies actually held true, but they dont and as soon as Kurze leaves the planet immediately slides back into corruption, and if the Night Lords werent present (and eminently corruptible) probably rebellion before too long.

 

Terror tactics dont work like that, have never worked for the counterinsurgent. As soon as your troops leave, discontent just rises up threefold. There is more of an argument for them working for unconventional forces and the like but that is waaaaaay off brief for the Imperium in the great crusade.

[SkimaskMohawk]

To be fair, there's been a lot of seeding of how the great crusade wasn't very effective at achieving compliance. There's the night lords and world eaters role as rebellion-quellers, theres the zaramund thing, there's the rebellion on Olympia, the discontent on Macragge, the discontent on Caliban, the hints that the emperor would have gone to war with the mechanicum, etc...There's also references to how primarch/imperial failures were hushed up really hard, like Corax his primarch book. Basically, there's a lot of opportunities for imperial rule to not take hold.

 

As for nostramo being an indictment of their compliance methods, it's honestly kind of a bad example. The world was extremely corrupt and curze's goal was to remove all crime, by torturing criminals. He did this over years, by himself and it worked for...decades, a century? A while at least. They regressed, but still wanted to be part of the imperium. In contrast, his legion tortures entire cities of innocenta (or planets, in a multi-planet empire) in one go. Just for loyalty to the imperium. The latter method is far more brutal, far faster, for an easier to achieve goal, on more likely targets.

 

Also, I think if the night lords methods were temporary, then curze would have been called out on it. The one short story where Magnus wants a library kept intact and gets into an argument with curze; would he not bring up the rate of regression to refute curze saying how his methods are less bloody and faster than guillimans? Magnus was all about knowing things and one-upping others, I think pointing out the failure of the night lords methods would have been something he would have done.

[Bulwyf]

To be fair, there's been a lot of seeding of how the great crusade wasn't very effective at achieving compliance. There's the night lords and world eaters role as rebellion-quellers, theres the zaramund thing, there's the rebellion on Olympia, the discontent on Macragge, the discontent on Caliban, the hints that the emperor would have gone to war with the mechanicum, etc...There's also references to how primarch/imperial failures were hushed up really hard, like Corax his primarch book. Basically, there's a lot of opportunities for imperial rule to not take hold.

 

As for nostramo being an indictment of their compliance methods, it's honestly kind of a bad example. The world was extremely corrupt and curze's goal was to remove all crime, by torturing criminals. He did this over years, by himself and it worked for...decades, a century? A while at least. They regressed, but still wanted to be part of the imperium. In contrast, his legion tortures entire cities of innocenta (or planets, in a multi-planet empire) in one go. Just for loyalty to the imperium. The latter method is far more brutal, far faster, for an easier to achieve goal, on more likely targets.

 

Also, I think if the night lords methods were temporary, then curze would have been called out on it. The one short story where Magnus wants a library kept intact and gets into an argument with curze; would he not bring up the rate of regression to refute curze saying how his methods are less bloody and faster than guillimans? Magnus was all about knowing things and one-upping others, I think pointing out the failure of the night lords methods would have been something he would have done.

 

Thank you. Excellent points especially that of Nostramo. Curze held that entire world for I think a century or so before the Emperor found him. The ONLY reason Nostramo went corrupt was because some of the more corrupt NLs made a deal with crime lords on Nostramo to basically only send the scum to be recruited into the legion and they would help hide how Nostramo had backslid from Curze.

We know what happened when Curze found out.

 

As to other Legion methods of compliance...seriously, look at them. None of them really worked. In the HH itself half the worlds declared for Horus. HALF the worlds went traitor. So all those traditional ways of warfare failed as well to keep worlds loyal.

[Kenzaburo]

 

To be fair, there's been a lot of seeding of how the great crusade wasn't very effective at achieving compliance. There's the night lords and world eaters role as rebellion-quellers, theres the zaramund thing, there's the rebellion on Olympia, the discontent on Macragge, the discontent on Caliban, the hints that the emperor would have gone to war with the mechanicum, etc...There's also references to how primarch/imperial failures were hushed up really hard, like Corax his primarch book. Basically, there's a lot of opportunities for imperial rule to not take hold.

 

As for nostramo being an indictment of their compliance methods, it's honestly kind of a bad example. The world was extremely corrupt and curze's goal was to remove all crime, by torturing criminals. He did this over years, by himself and it worked for...decades, a century? A while at least. They regressed, but still wanted to be part of the imperium. In contrast, his legion tortures entire cities of innocenta (or planets, in a multi-planet empire) in one go. Just for loyalty to the imperium. The latter method is far more brutal, far faster, for an easier to achieve goal, on more likely targets.

 

Also, I think if the night lords methods were temporary, then curze would have been called out on it. The one short story where Magnus wants a library kept intact and gets into an argument with curze; would he not bring up the rate of regression to refute curze saying how his methods are less bloody and faster than guillimans? Magnus was all about knowing things and one-upping others, I think pointing out the failure of the night lords methods would have been something he would have done.

 

Thank you. Excellent points especially that of Nostramo. Curze held that entire world for I think a century or so before the Emperor found him. The ONLY reason Nostramo went corrupt was because some of the more corrupt NLs made a deal with crime lords on Nostramo to basically only send the scum to be recruited into the legion and they would help hide how Nostramo had backslid from Curze.

We know what happened when Curze found out.

 

As to other Legion methods of compliance...seriously, look at them. None of them really worked. In the HH itself half the worlds declared for Horus. HALF the worlds went traitor. So all those traditional ways of warfare failed as well to keep worlds loyal.

 

Even though we might digress from the original topic, I felt like Guilliman by and large had the right approach. Sure, there was dissent, but building an empire will almost always cause this, since they are built on conquest. 

 

I'd also say that Lorgar had a pretty good track record. Big E might not have liked the zealotry Lorgar used but it was effective and helped provide coherence. 

 

I'm not sure about other legions, my black book knowledge is a bit limited. But judging from their primarchs and their interests, most others wouldn't have spent much time on nation building, besides the two mentioned above and, as it seems, Alpharius in his own way.