What lore progression would you like to see?

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

I definitely feel there has been a bit of an excess of "Rip the veil away, explain everything" in recent years- but even before 8th Edition. I'd argue it started with the HH game. Don't get me wrong, there's lots of awesome stuff that came from the Age of Darkness ruleset, but by its very nature, it took an era of time in the 40K universe which was poorly-understood and borderline mythical, and laid it all bare, stating "This is exactly what happened" (albeit somewhat softened by the ever-useful caveat of "Everything is canon, nothing is true"). IMO at least, when the Horus Heresy was so long ago that the numbers of (loyal) people who remember it can be counted on one hand and what little information existed on it was wreathed in the foggy miasma of ancient history, it worked far better. The Horus Heresy novels for a long time never revealed too much, and the occasional contradictions between books added to the "But what ACTUALLY happened?" factor. Of course, when you have to have concrete rules for the Legions of this era and the demi-gods that lead them, a lot of demystification has to happen pretty much as a necessity. That's not to say that it's exclusively the game's fault, oh no. I seem to recall a lot of the newer books have thrown in some rather ridiculous elements (Vulkan being a Perpetual, whatever the hell was going on with the Cabal when half the point of Alpharius and Omegon is that NOBODY KNOWS WHAT THEIR GOAL IS), and the inter-author contradictions seem to have escalated from "possibly intentional efforts to keep the mystery of the era" to "authors battling out to make their interpretation of the lore the "canon" one".

 

As for modern 40K, whilst there's a lot I don't like about the new fluff, there's also a lot I do like, at least in theory. I actually don't hate the idea of Primarchs returning provided they exercise some restraint. The daemon Primarchs I'd argue have been long overdue a return- Angron has been active in the fluff for years now after all. I'd rather they didn't bring back any more loyalist Primarchs- or at least if they do, I hope they bring back like, one or two at most and do so in an interesting way. I actually think Guilliman's return sucks more in execution than in concept, and I thought the whole "hates what has become of his father's Imperium" element was a pretty nifty one, if poorly explored.

 

I would be happy to see some extremes to give contrast to the returned Primarchs.

 

Demon Primarchs all over, sure. I think the Lion or Khan should return, as should Vulkan. Caveats exist here though. They should only return when Guilliman is too pressed by his Traitorous brothers, only for him to have his arse pulled from the fire.

 

Secondly, the Lion and Vulkan as my true picks because they contrast with each other so drastically, and each play differently off of Guilliman. The Lion is cold a cold and analytical military strategist and savant, with no mind for empire building, nor for human interaction. Vulkan on the other end of the scale is the obvious humanitarian and is entirely driven by his emotions, his rage, his compassion and cares for humanity as individuals. Guilliman is the balance between the two, being a statesman and empire builder he both cares for humanity and the Imperium as a whole, yet still uses citizens as a resource to achieve an objective and is able to be diplomatic and converse with others, both of which the other two brothers may have issues with.

 

I think the three of them, as a very, very dysfunctional trio would be a good core group to set against all of the Daemon Primarchs.

 

I also think there should be some strife and conflict between the forces of disorder. Purturabo should simply not get along with nor do as anyone else wishes, having his own drive and agenda. I personally think he'd be a great foil to keep hounding someone like Lorgar, someone he can use his cold-logic to decide is to blame for everything as Perty is at the end of the day, a lost child still and in his hurt and rage, decide to take it out on the grand architect of the entire problem. This along with strife organized and prosecuted by the Night Lords and Alpha Legion.

 

Anyone whos dead should stay dead, very dead. Corax should stay gone, as should the Khan, bar some perhaps a cameo here and there. Use the dead primarchs as 'force ghosts' of the Emperor if you wish, but they should never return.

 

I think that would create a core group to form a new 'status quo' as it were for 40k to sit with. It allows the loyal brothers to battle against the tide of their daemon brethren, as well as the rest of the galaxy, and it also allows the forces of disorder to both strike at the rest of the galaxy, as well as hinder each other through infighting, as well as other disparate groups within their overall faction.

 

If GW is to pull the veil back to bring about a 'new order' I this would be my way to have it settle into a new groove in the same way that the old era of 40k did. They can both advance the story as well as leave it overall, unmoving with this.

 

=][= EDIT =][=

 

Note that this topic was split from the Is GW getting too specific with lore (spoiler-warning) topic.

Edited December 5, 2020 by Brother Tyler
Topic split note.

[Moonreaper666]

 

 

I definitely feel there has been a bit of an excess of "Rip the veil away, explain everything" in recent years- but even before 8th Edition. I'd argue it started with the HH game. Don't get me wrong, there's lots of awesome stuff that came from the Age of Darkness ruleset, but by its very nature, it took an era of time in the 40K universe which was poorly-understood and borderline mythical, and laid it all bare, stating "This is exactly what happened" (albeit somewhat softened by the ever-useful caveat of "Everything is canon, nothing is true"). IMO at least, when the Horus Heresy was so long ago that the numbers of (loyal) people who remember it can be counted on one hand and what little information existed on it was wreathed in the foggy miasma of ancient history, it worked far better. The Horus Heresy novels for a long time never revealed too much, and the occasional contradictions between books added to the "But what ACTUALLY happened?" factor. Of course, when you have to have concrete rules for the Legions of this era and the demi-gods that lead them, a lot of demystification has to happen pretty much as a necessity. That's not to say that it's exclusively the game's fault, oh no. I seem to recall a lot of the newer books have thrown in some rather ridiculous elements (Vulkan being a Perpetual, whatever the hell was going on with the Cabal when half the point of Alpharius and Omegon is that NOBODY KNOWS WHAT THEIR GOAL IS), and the inter-author contradictions seem to have escalated from "possibly intentional efforts to keep the mystery of the era" to "authors battling out to make their interpretation of the lore the "canon" one".

 

As for modern 40K, whilst there's a lot I don't like about the new fluff, there's also a lot I do like, at least in theory. I actually don't hate the idea of Primarchs returning provided they exercise some restraint. The daemon Primarchs I'd argue have been long overdue a return- Angron has been active in the fluff for years now after all. I'd rather they didn't bring back any more loyalist Primarchs- or at least if they do, I hope they bring back like, one or two at most and do so in an interesting way. I actually think Guilliman's return sucks more in execution than in concept, and I thought the whole "hates what has become of his father's Imperium" element was a pretty nifty one, if poorly explored.

I would be happy to see some extremes to give contrast to the returned Primarchs.

 

Demon Primarchs all over, sure. I think the Lion or Khan should return, as should Vulkan. Caveats exist here though. They should only return when Guilliman is too pressed by his Traitorous brothers, only for him to have his arse pulled from the fire.

 

Secondly, the Lion and Vulkan as my true picks because they contrast with each other so drastically, and each play differently off of Guilliman. The Lion is cold a cold and analytical military strategist and savant, with no mind for empire building, nor for human interaction. Vulkan on the other end of the scale is the obvious humanitarian and is entirely driven by his emotions, his rage, his compassion and cares for humanity as individuals. Guilliman is the balance between the two, being a statesman and empire builder he both cares for humanity and the Imperium as a whole, yet still uses citizens as a resource to achieve an objective and is able to be diplomatic and converse with others, both of which the other two brothers may have issues with.

 

I think the three of them, as a very, very dysfunctional trio would be a good core group to set against all of the Daemon Primarchs.

 

I also think there should be some strife and conflict between the forces of disorder. Purturabo should simply not get along with nor do as anyone else wishes, having his own drive and agenda. I personally think he'd be a great foil to keep hounding someone like Lorgar, someone he can use his cold-logic to decide is to blame for everything as Perty is at the end of the day, a lost child still and in his hurt and rage, decide to take it out on the grand architect of the entire problem. This along with strife organized and prosecuted by the Night Lords and Alpha Legion.

 

Anyone whos dead should stay dead, very dead. Corax should stay gone, as should the Khan, bar some perhaps a cameo here and there. Use the dead primarchs as 'force ghosts' of the Emperor if you wish, but they should never return.

 

I think that would create a core group to form a new 'status quo' as it were for 40k to sit with. It allows the loyal brothers to battle against the tide of their daemon brethren, as well as the rest of the galaxy, and it also allows the forces of disorder to both strike at the rest of the galaxy, as well as hinder each other through infighting, as well as other disparate groups within their overall faction.

 

If GW is to pull the veil back to bring about a 'new order' I this would be my way to have it settle into a new groove in the same way that the old era of 40k did. They can both advance the story as well as leave it overall, unmoving with this.

Corax is 100% still alive unlike the Khan

 

There are a few things that are more than certain and GW will confirm them in the future

 

-The Drazhar-Ahra connection (it is as obvious as Green Knight-Giles le Breton)

 

-Doombreed outright exterminating entire Chapters (we need a Short Story and we should increase the Chapters killed from 2 to 64)

 

I actually think something needs to be done with the Komus/Tyrant Star, make it more important and understandable in the lore (Perhaps connect it to Malice) and maybe certain characters (Abaddon, Typhus, Ahriman, Uriel Rankath, Dark Mechanicum, Word Bearers) use it to advance their own nefarious purpose

[smileyjim]

I heard the Sanguinor was Alpharious

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

I definitely feel there has been a bit of an excess of "Rip the veil away, explain everything" in recent years- but even before 8th Edition. I'd argue it started with the HH game. Don't get me wrong, there's lots of awesome stuff that came from the Age of Darkness ruleset, but by its very nature, it took an era of time in the 40K universe which was poorly-understood and borderline mythical, and laid it all bare, stating "This is exactly what happened" (albeit somewhat softened by the ever-useful caveat of "Everything is canon, nothing is true"). IMO at least, when the Horus Heresy was so long ago that the numbers of (loyal) people who remember it can be counted on one hand and what little information existed on it was wreathed in the foggy miasma of ancient history, it worked far better. The Horus Heresy novels for a long time never revealed too much, and the occasional contradictions between books added to the "But what ACTUALLY happened?" factor. Of course, when you have to have concrete rules for the Legions of this era and the demi-gods that lead them, a lot of demystification has to happen pretty much as a necessity. That's not to say that it's exclusively the game's fault, oh no. I seem to recall a lot of the newer books have thrown in some rather ridiculous elements (Vulkan being a Perpetual, whatever the hell was going on with the Cabal when half the point of Alpharius and Omegon is that NOBODY KNOWS WHAT THEIR GOAL IS), and the inter-author contradictions seem to have escalated from "possibly intentional efforts to keep the mystery of the era" to "authors battling out to make their interpretation of the lore the "canon" one".

 

As for modern 40K, whilst there's a lot I don't like about the new fluff, there's also a lot I do like, at least in theory. I actually don't hate the idea of Primarchs returning provided they exercise some restraint. The daemon Primarchs I'd argue have been long overdue a return- Angron has been active in the fluff for years now after all. I'd rather they didn't bring back any more loyalist Primarchs- or at least if they do, I hope they bring back like, one or two at most and do so in an interesting way. I actually think Guilliman's return sucks more in execution than in concept, and I thought the whole "hates what has become of his father's Imperium" element was a pretty nifty one, if poorly explored.

 

I would be happy to see some extremes to give contrast to the returned Primarchs.

 

Demon Primarchs all over, sure. I think the Lion or Khan should return, as should Vulkan. Caveats exist here though. They should only return when Guilliman is too pressed by his Traitorous brothers, only for him to have his arse pulled from the fire.

 

Secondly, the Lion and Vulkan as my true picks because they contrast with each other so drastically, and each play differently off of Guilliman. The Lion is cold a cold and analytical military strategist and savant, with no mind for empire building, nor for human interaction. Vulkan on the other end of the scale is the obvious humanitarian and is entirely driven by his emotions, his rage, his compassion and cares for humanity as individuals. Guilliman is the balance between the two, being a statesman and empire builder he both cares for humanity and the Imperium as a whole, yet still uses citizens as a resource to achieve an objective and is able to be diplomatic and converse with others, both of which the other two brothers may have issues with.

 

I think the three of them, as a very, very dysfunctional trio would be a good core group to set against all of the Daemon Primarchs.

 

I also think there should be some strife and conflict between the forces of disorder. Purturabo should simply not get along with nor do as anyone else wishes, having his own drive and agenda. I personally think he'd be a great foil to keep hounding someone like Lorgar, someone he can use his cold-logic to decide is to blame for everything as Perty is at the end of the day, a lost child still and in his hurt and rage, decide to take it out on the grand architect of the entire problem. This along with strife organized and prosecuted by the Night Lords and Alpha Legion.

 

Anyone whos dead should stay dead, very dead. Corax should stay gone, as should the Khan, bar some perhaps a cameo here and there. Use the dead primarchs as 'force ghosts' of the Emperor if you wish, but they should never return.

 

I think that would create a core group to form a new 'status quo' as it were for 40k to sit with. It allows the loyal brothers to battle against the tide of their daemon brethren, as well as the rest of the galaxy, and it also allows the forces of disorder to both strike at the rest of the galaxy, as well as hinder each other through infighting, as well as other disparate groups within their overall faction.

 

If GW is to pull the veil back to bring about a 'new order' I this would be my way to have it settle into a new groove in the same way that the old era of 40k did. They can both advance the story as well as leave it overall, unmoving with this.

 

personally i think the biggest problem with bringing the primarchs back at all is that some are dead.

it seems like a bad idea to start bringing MORE primarchs back, and then not bring them all back...as BA player i'll be very annoyed if vulkan or the lion return but not the angel, where by the same token i also know it would take some real good writing to bring sanguinius back properly....a level of writing they couldn't pull off for bringing back girly man. i imagine if they bring back sanguinius, they'll also cure the black rage all of a sudden as well...

[dice4thedicegod]

 

 

I definitely feel there has been a bit of an excess of "Rip the veil away, explain everything" in recent years- but even before 8th Edition. I'd argue it started with the HH game. Don't get me wrong, there's lots of awesome stuff that came from the Age of Darkness ruleset, but by its very nature, it took an era of time in the 40K universe which was poorly-understood and borderline mythical, and laid it all bare, stating "This is exactly what happened" (albeit somewhat softened by the ever-useful caveat of "Everything is canon, nothing is true"). IMO at least, when the Horus Heresy was so long ago that the numbers of (loyal) people who remember it can be counted on one hand and what little information existed on it was wreathed in the foggy miasma of ancient history, it worked far better. The Horus Heresy novels for a long time never revealed too much, and the occasional contradictions between books added to the "But what ACTUALLY happened?" factor. Of course, when you have to have concrete rules for the Legions of this era and the demi-gods that lead them, a lot of demystification has to happen pretty much as a necessity. That's not to say that it's exclusively the game's fault, oh no. I seem to recall a lot of the newer books have thrown in some rather ridiculous elements (Vulkan being a Perpetual, whatever the hell was going on with the Cabal when half the point of Alpharius and Omegon is that NOBODY KNOWS WHAT THEIR GOAL IS), and the inter-author contradictions seem to have escalated from "possibly intentional efforts to keep the mystery of the era" to "authors battling out to make their interpretation of the lore the "canon" one".

 

As for modern 40K, whilst there's a lot I don't like about the new fluff, there's also a lot I do like, at least in theory. I actually don't hate the idea of Primarchs returning provided they exercise some restraint. The daemon Primarchs I'd argue have been long overdue a return- Angron has been active in the fluff for years now after all. I'd rather they didn't bring back any more loyalist Primarchs- or at least if they do, I hope they bring back like, one or two at most and do so in an interesting way. I actually think Guilliman's return sucks more in execution than in concept, and I thought the whole "hates what has become of his father's Imperium" element was a pretty nifty one, if poorly explored.

 

I would be happy to see some extremes to give contrast to the returned Primarchs.

 

Demon Primarchs all over, sure. I think the Lion or Khan should return, as should Vulkan. Caveats exist here though. They should only return when Guilliman is too pressed by his Traitorous brothers, only for him to have his arse pulled from the fire.

 

Secondly, the Lion and Vulkan as my true picks because they contrast with each other so drastically, and each play differently off of Guilliman. The Lion is cold a cold and analytical military strategist and savant, with no mind for empire building, nor for human interaction. Vulkan on the other end of the scale is the obvious humanitarian and is entirely driven by his emotions, his rage, his compassion and cares for humanity as individuals. Guilliman is the balance between the two, being a statesman and empire builder he both cares for humanity and the Imperium as a whole, yet still uses citizens as a resource to achieve an objective and is able to be diplomatic and converse with others, both of which the other two brothers may have issues with.

 

I think the three of them, as a very, very dysfunctional trio would be a good core group to set against all of the Daemon Primarchs.

 

I also think there should be some strife and conflict between the forces of disorder. Purturabo should simply not get along with nor do as anyone else wishes, having his own drive and agenda. I personally think he'd be a great foil to keep hounding someone like Lorgar, someone he can use his cold-logic to decide is to blame for everything as Perty is at the end of the day, a lost child still and in his hurt and rage, decide to take it out on the grand architect of the entire problem. This along with strife organized and prosecuted by the Night Lords and Alpha Legion.

 

Anyone whos dead should stay dead, very dead. Corax should stay gone, as should the Khan, bar some perhaps a cameo here and there. Use the dead primarchs as 'force ghosts' of the Emperor if you wish, but they should never return.

 

I think that would create a core group to form a new 'status quo' as it were for 40k to sit with. It allows the loyal brothers to battle against the tide of their daemon brethren, as well as the rest of the galaxy, and it also allows the forces of disorder to both strike at the rest of the galaxy, as well as hinder each other through infighting, as well as other disparate groups within their overall faction.

 

If GW is to pull the veil back to bring about a 'new order' I this would be my way to have it settle into a new groove in the same way that the old era of 40k did. They can both advance the story as well as leave it overall, unmoving with this.

 

personally i think the biggest problem with bringing the primarchs back at all is that some are dead.

it seems like a bad idea to start bringing MORE primarchs back, and then not bring them all back...as BA player i'll be very annoyed if vulkan or the lion return but not the angel, where by the same token i also know it would take some real good writing to bring sanguinius back properly....a level of writing they couldn't pull off for bringing back girly man. i imagine if they bring back sanguinius, they'll also cure the black rage all of a sudden as well...

 

Sanguinius has to stay dead. He’s the one unequivocal noble sacrifice in the mythos. Don’t go and invalidate it.

 

plus it would be terrible just in terms of dramatic tension (“don’t worrry fans - popular characters don’t stay dead!”)

[Scribe]

If they brought him back, I would quit the setting completely. No hesitation, no regrets, not another penny spent.

[Claws and Effect]

Going to address returning Primarchs here, because I don't want to create a giant quote pyramid. 

 

1) Sanguinius coming back doesn't invalidate his sacrifice. Being resurrected doesn't change the fact that he died in the first place. It's not like bringing him back 10,000 years later erases the fact that he was killed by Horus. 

 

It also opens up the possibility that Sanguinius could come back, but not as the noble Angel he was when he died. I dunno about you, but I think Death Company Sanguinius would be pretty neat to see. 

 

2) Corax is alive in the Warp. Gav's short story confirms this as much as anything can be confirmed in this setting. But he's also not the same person he was during the Great Crusade and the Heresy. And because he's in the Warp it is entirely possible that the 10,000 years that have passed in realspace could be any amount of time. Could be just a few years for him. 

 

3) Vulkan is a Perpetual. It was hammered home in several books that he can never truly die. He's out there somewhere. 

 

4) The Khan is in the Webway. Time doesn't work the same there either. He could pop out millennia later and only have spent a few days in there from his perspective. 

 

5) I recall seeing somewhere that the Lion woke up from his nap and isn't in the chamber on the Rock anymore. 

 

6) Leman Russ has been allegedly sighted on Cadia, and has also spent significant time in the Warp. 

 

7) Dorn is essentially Schrodingers Primarch at this point, with conflicting accounts of whether or not he is actually dead or just missing. 

 

8) Fulgrim has been sighted rather frequently in the lore of late. 

 

9) Angron has been active in the lore recently. Well, fairly recently. In-universe the First War of Armageddon wasn't all that long ago. 

 

10) Perturabo is alive. 

 

11) Lorgar is still hiding in a tower. Read Shadow of the Past to find out why. 

 

12) Alpharius/Omegon, one of them is probably still alive. We just don't know for sure which one. 

 

13) Guilliman, Magnus, and Mortarian are already back. 

 

Looking at it from a tabletop perspective, just about every faction is getting a big nasty Lord of War unit. Ghazkull is back and better than ever for the Orks. Necrons have 4 units that fit that description now. I'd put money on the Avatar of Khaine getting a significant buff and new model when the Craftworlds get their next update. The Swarmlord is already set up in the lore to continue improving. Tau have battlesuits that fit the bill. The Guard have giant freaking tanks, which perfectly fits their theme of being regular humans in a galaxy that wants them dead. You can take Knights in AdMech detachments without breaking Battleforged, and they have Cawl himself who is also pretty tough. 

 

It just stands to reason that there be more than just Guilliman for Marine players and more than just Magnus and Morty for Chaos players. Shoehorning players into one or two subfactions if they want one of those big centerpiece character units is bad business, especially with as sidelined as some players are feeling now that they share the same Codex/Supplement setup as the vanilla Marines. 

 

More on topic for the thread, I don't think GW is getting too specific with the lore. You can have mysteries and questions. For years even. But if you have questions asked at the beginning of the game lore and there is no answer and no payoff 30 years later, that's just bad storytelling. Eventually you have to answer those questions, otherwise there is no point to even asking them in the first place. Imagine if we never found out who Luke's father was and they spent 3 movies dancing around the question. 

Edited November 30, 2020 by Claws and Effect

[Scribe]

1. Yes it would, and it would harm decades of lore. Sanguinius is dead.

 

2. Corax would be fine.

 

3. Vulcan would just mean more bad novels. Hard pass.

 

4. Khan would be fine. Lion and Russ too.

 

7. Dorn died. Retcon not required. Leave dead.

 

The rest listed are options.

 

The dead, should be dead. Leave them as such.

 

If GW is so poor at their jobs that they cannot leverage the pieces they have without SHOCKING NEW RETCON REVELATION, then it's time to pack it up.

[dice4thedicegod]

Going to address returning Primarchs here, because I don't want to create a giant quote pyramid.

 

1) Sanguinius coming back doesn't invalidate his sacrifice. Being resurrected doesn't change the fact that he died in the first place. It's not like bringing him back 10,000 years later erases the fact that he was killed by Horus.

 

It would reduce the impact to that felt when you die in a computer game 30 seconds after you quick save. Sure, it doesn’t mean you didn’t die... but the impact is somewhat cushioned :)

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1. Yes it would, and it would harm decades of lore. Sanguinius is dead.

 

2. Corax would be fine.

 

3. Vulcan would just mean more bad novels. Hard pass.

 

4. Khan would be fine. Lion and Russ too.

 

7. Dorn died. Retcon not required. Leave dead.

 

The rest listed are options.

 

The dead, should be dead. Leave them as such.

 

If GW is so poor at their jobs that they cannot leverage the pieces they have without SHOCKING NEW RETCON REVELATION, then it's time to pack it up.

i don't see how it would cheapen his sacrifice.

he had a vision of him dying, even if it turns out he was only 99.9% dead (since last i heard his body is in stasis on baal) and they finally found a way to stabilize and heal him, when he made the sacrifice he still thought he was going to his death. 

 

you want to talk about cheapening his death, removing the lore that sanguinius' sacrifice weakened horus' armor enough for the emperor to kill horus, cheapens the sacrifice a whole lot more than bringing sanguinius back some how (as long as it's extremely well written)

 

that being said i'm not advocating bringing him back, i'm against including ANY primarchs in 40k, but the cat is already out of the bag, and i get the feeling they'll keep bringing them back because they'll sell, however i also think that once all of the primarchs that are back that can come back without a fairly major retcon occurring, then you'll see a sag in support for chapters/legions that don't have active primarchs, which will eventually in my opinion result in progressively less and less in game support. maybe they could make the sanguinor a demon prince type thing for the emperor instead of bringing sanguinius back, and have him on the level of a primarch?

[Scribe]

"So you offered yourself up to stand before Horus, despite knowing you were about to get killed, and you knew it, but you did it anyway?"

 

"Yeah, but I would get brought back, so who cares."

 

And

 

"So you all went mental because your Father was killed, and its impacted you, your lineage, your allies, the people who you protect, for 10,000 years."

 

"Yeah, but hes back now, so its no big deal."

 

Yes, bringing him back cheapens everything. I would literally never return here, and would never buy another book, model, codex, or anything 40K, ever again.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

"So you offered yourself up to stand before Horus, despite knowing you were about to get killed, and you knew it, but you did it anyway?"

 

"Yeah, but I would get brought back, so who cares."

 

And

 

"So you all went mental because your Father was killed, and its impacted you, your lineage, your allies, the people who you protect, for 10,000 years."

 

"Yeah, but hes back now, so its no big deal."

 

Yes, bringing him back cheapens everything. I would literally never return here, and would never buy another book, model, codex, or anything 40K, ever again.

it doesn't cheapen anything.

he made the sacrifice not knowing he'd be brought back, the sacrifice is still just as noble.

nor would him coming back necessarily cure the black rage. the psychic trauma of sanginius being struck down would still exist in the geneseed

 

so them bringing sanguinius back would make you throw a temper tantrum? weird flex but ok

[Scribe]

 

"So you offered yourself up to stand before Horus, despite knowing you were about to get killed, and you knew it, but you did it anyway?"

 

"Yeah, but I would get brought back, so who cares."

 

And

 

"So you all went mental because your Father was killed, and its impacted you, your lineage, your allies, the people who you protect, for 10,000 years."

 

"Yeah, but hes back now, so its no big deal."

 

Yes, bringing him back cheapens everything. I would literally never return here, and would never buy another book, model, codex, or anything 40K, ever again.

it doesn't cheapen anything.

he made the sacrifice not knowing he'd be brought back, the sacrifice is still just as noble.

nor would him coming back necessarily cure the black rage. the psychic trauma of sanginius being struck down would still exist in the geneseed

 

so them bringing sanguinius back would make you throw a temper tantrum? weird flex but ok

 

 

No, it would simply prove GW has no respect for its setting, so why continue to support it. I'm not saying I would burn my books or armies. :p

[Volt]

 

"So you offered yourself up to stand before Horus, despite knowing you were about to get killed, and you knew it, but you did it anyway?"

 

"Yeah, but I would get brought back, so who cares."

 

And

 

"So you all went mental because your Father was killed, and its impacted you, your lineage, your allies, the people who you protect, for 10,000 years."

 

"Yeah, but hes back now, so its no big deal."

 

Yes, bringing him back cheapens everything. I would literally never return here, and would never buy another book, model, codex, or anything 40K, ever again.

it doesn't cheapen anything.

he made the sacrifice not knowing he'd be brought back, the sacrifice is still just as noble.

nor would him coming back necessarily cure the black rage. the psychic trauma of sanginius being struck down would still exist in the geneseed

 

so them bringing sanguinius back would make you throw a temper tantrum? weird flex but ok

 

Turning death into a revolving door cheapens all conflict, destroys all tension, and is why such works as Marvel or DC comics are thoroughly mocked for death not even being a big deal due to said lack of impact. If Sanguinius was resurrected it would utterly abort all thematic weight to his story and his death by virtue of eliminating the consequences of his action and completely curing/saving the Blood Angels legion to boot. If somebody sacrifices themselves but comes back anyway, all tragedy behind their death is immediately lost and replaced with the resurrection narrative - which can have its own place, but it certainly doesn't work well in Warhammer.

 

GW bringing back Sanguinius just means they have finally jumped the shark with no regard to consequences in their writing as death itself loses meaning. There's already frankly very little reason to actually care about GW's writing in the first place on account of GW refusing to have consequences for their campaigns, but Sanguinius popping back would just be ridiculous.

[Lucerne]

 

 

"So you offered yourself up to stand before Horus, despite knowing you were about to get killed, and you knew it, but you did it anyway?"

 

"Yeah, but I would get brought back, so who cares."

 

And

 

"So you all went mental because your Father was killed, and its impacted you, your lineage, your allies, the people who you protect, for 10,000 years."

 

"Yeah, but hes back now, so its no big deal."

 

Yes, bringing him back cheapens everything. I would literally never return here, and would never buy another book, model, codex, or anything 40K, ever again.

it doesn't cheapen anything.

he made the sacrifice not knowing he'd be brought back, the sacrifice is still just as noble.

nor would him coming back necessarily cure the black rage. the psychic trauma of sanginius being struck down would still exist in the geneseed

 

so them bringing sanguinius back would make you throw a temper tantrum? weird flex but ok

 

Turning death into a revolving door cheapens all conflict, destroys all tension, and is why such works as Marvel or DC comics are thoroughly mocked for death not even being a big deal due to said lack of impact. If Sanguinius was resurrected it would utterly abort all thematic weight to his story and his death by virtue of eliminating the consequences of his action and completely curing/saving the Blood Angels legion to boot. If somebody sacrifices themselves but comes back anyway, all tragedy behind their death is immediately lost and replaced with the resurrection narrative - which can have its own place, but it certainly doesn't work well in Warhammer.

 

GW bringing back Sanguinius just means they have finally jumped the shark with no regard to consequences in their writing as death itself loses meaning. There's already frankly very little reason to actually care about GW's writing in the first place on account of GW refusing to have consequences for their campaigns, but Sanguinius popping back would just be ridiculous.

 

Given the pig's breakfast made of Guilliman, zombie Sanguinius would at least offer some amusing back and forth and wouldn't be much of a step down.

[dice4thedicegod]

 

 

 

 

 

 

"So you offered yourself up to stand before Horus, despite knowing you were about to get killed, and you knew it, but you did it anyway?"

 

"Yeah, but I would get brought back, so who cares."

 

And

 

"So you all went mental because your Father was killed, and its impacted you, your lineage, your allies, the people who you protect, for 10,000 years."

 

"Yeah, but hes back now, so its no big deal."

 

Yes, bringing him back cheapens everything. I would literally never return here, and would never buy another book, model, codex, or anything 40K, ever again.

it doesn't cheapen anything.

he made the sacrifice not knowing he'd be brought back, the sacrifice is still just as noble.

nor would him coming back necessarily cure the black rage. the psychic trauma of sanginius being struck down would still exist in the geneseed

 

so them bringing sanguinius back would make you throw a temper tantrum? weird flex but ok

Turning death into a revolving door cheapens all conflict, destroys all tension, and is why such works as Marvel or DC comics are thoroughly mocked for death not even being a big deal due to said lack of impact. If Sanguinius was resurrected it would utterly abort all thematic weight to his story and his death by virtue of eliminating the consequences of his action and completely curing/saving the Blood Angels legion to boot. If somebody sacrifices themselves but comes back anyway, all tragedy behind their death is immediately lost and replaced with the resurrection narrative - which can have its own place, but it certainly doesn't work well in Warhammer.

 

GW bringing back Sanguinius just means they have finally jumped the shark with no regard to consequences in their writing as death itself loses meaning. There's already frankly very little reason to actually care about GW's writing in the first place on account of GW refusing to have consequences for their campaigns, but Sanguinius popping back would just be ridiculous.

Given the pig's breakfast made of Guilliman, zombie Sanguinius would at least offer some amusing back and forth and wouldn't be much of a step down.

To quote The Princess Bride:

 

“ There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead. Mostly dead is slightly alive. ”

 

Guilliman was ‘mostly dead’.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

"So you offered yourself up to stand before Horus, despite knowing you were about to get killed, and you knew it, but you did it anyway?"

 

"Yeah, but I would get brought back, so who cares."

 

And

 

"So you all went mental because your Father was killed, and its impacted you, your lineage, your allies, the people who you protect, for 10,000 years."

 

"Yeah, but hes back now, so its no big deal."

 

Yes, bringing him back cheapens everything. I would literally never return here, and would never buy another book, model, codex, or anything 40K, ever again.

it doesn't cheapen anything.

he made the sacrifice not knowing he'd be brought back, the sacrifice is still just as noble.

nor would him coming back necessarily cure the black rage. the psychic trauma of sanginius being struck down would still exist in the geneseed

 

so them bringing sanguinius back would make you throw a temper tantrum? weird flex but ok

 

Turning death into a revolving door cheapens all conflict, destroys all tension, and is why such works as Marvel or DC comics are thoroughly mocked for death not even being a big deal due to said lack of impact. If Sanguinius was resurrected it would utterly abort all thematic weight to his story and his death by virtue of eliminating the consequences of his action and completely curing/saving the Blood Angels legion to boot. If somebody sacrifices themselves but comes back anyway, all tragedy behind their death is immediately lost and replaced with the resurrection narrative - which can have its own place, but it certainly doesn't work well in Warhammer.

 

GW bringing back Sanguinius just means they have finally jumped the shark with no regard to consequences in their writing as death itself loses meaning. There's already frankly very little reason to actually care about GW's writing in the first place on account of GW refusing to have consequences for their campaigns, but Sanguinius popping back would just be ridiculous.

 

...not like there's methods of bringing people back for many of the factions already either in game or in lore...but hey

 

 

 

 

"So you offered yourself up to stand before Horus, despite knowing you were about to get killed, and you knew it, but you did it anyway?"

 

"Yeah, but I would get brought back, so who cares."

 

And

 

"So you all went mental because your Father was killed, and its impacted you, your lineage, your allies, the people who you protect, for 10,000 years."

 

"Yeah, but hes back now, so its no big deal."

 

Yes, bringing him back cheapens everything. I would literally never return here, and would never buy another book, model, codex, or anything 40K, ever again.

it doesn't cheapen anything.

he made the sacrifice not knowing he'd be brought back, the sacrifice is still just as noble.

nor would him coming back necessarily cure the black rage. the psychic trauma of sanginius being struck down would still exist in the geneseed

 

so them bringing sanguinius back would make you throw a temper tantrum? weird flex but ok

Turning death into a revolving door cheapens all conflict, destroys all tension, and is why such works as Marvel or DC comics are thoroughly mocked for death not even being a big deal due to said lack of impact. If Sanguinius was resurrected it would utterly abort all thematic weight to his story and his death by virtue of eliminating the consequences of his action and completely curing/saving the Blood Angels legion to boot. If somebody sacrifices themselves but comes back anyway, all tragedy behind their death is immediately lost and replaced with the resurrection narrative - which can have its own place, but it certainly doesn't work well in Warhammer.

 

GW bringing back Sanguinius just means they have finally jumped the shark with no regard to consequences in their writing as death itself loses meaning. There's already frankly very little reason to actually care about GW's writing in the first place on account of GW refusing to have consequences for their campaigns, but Sanguinius popping back would just be ridiculous.

Given the pig's breakfast made of Guilliman, zombie Sanguinius would at least offer some amusing back and forth and wouldn't be much of a step down.

To quote The Princess Bride:

 

“ There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead. Mostly dead is slightly alive. ”

 

Guilliman was ‘mostly dead’.

 

they can say all 'dead' primarchs where only mostly dead.

[Gederas]

Not gonna quote because this is going to get too unwieldy but no:

 

All of the Primarchs who were confirmed dead are confirmed as DEAD. Guilliman was ALWAYS referred to as "in stasis just milliseconds before death", not 100% dead like Curze, Ferrus, Sanguinius and Horus.

 

Regarding Dorn: Him being confirmed dead was retconned ages ago (remember, the Fists used to have his ENTIRE SKELETON, now it's just a hand) so that's not an argument anymore.

Edited December 26, 2020 by Brother Tyler

[Volt]

 

 

 

"So you offered yourself up to stand before Horus, despite knowing you were about to get killed, and you knew it, but you did it anyway?"

 

"Yeah, but I would get brought back, so who cares."

 

And

 

"So you all went mental because your Father was killed, and its impacted you, your lineage, your allies, the people who you protect, for 10,000 years."

 

"Yeah, but hes back now, so its no big deal."

 

Yes, bringing him back cheapens everything. I would literally never return here, and would never buy another book, model, codex, or anything 40K, ever again.

it doesn't cheapen anything.

he made the sacrifice not knowing he'd be brought back, the sacrifice is still just as noble.

nor would him coming back necessarily cure the black rage. the psychic trauma of sanginius being struck down would still exist in the geneseed

 

so them bringing sanguinius back would make you throw a temper tantrum? weird flex but ok

 

Turning death into a revolving door cheapens all conflict, destroys all tension, and is why such works as Marvel or DC comics are thoroughly mocked for death not even being a big deal due to said lack of impact. If Sanguinius was resurrected it would utterly abort all thematic weight to his story and his death by virtue of eliminating the consequences of his action and completely curing/saving the Blood Angels legion to boot. If somebody sacrifices themselves but comes back anyway, all tragedy behind their death is immediately lost and replaced with the resurrection narrative - which can have its own place, but it certainly doesn't work well in Warhammer.

 

GW bringing back Sanguinius just means they have finally jumped the shark with no regard to consequences in their writing as death itself loses meaning. There's already frankly very little reason to actually care about GW's writing in the first place on account of GW refusing to have consequences for their campaigns, but Sanguinius popping back would just be ridiculous.

 

...not like there's methods of bringing people back for many of the factions already either in game or in lore...but he

 

...There isn't. The only form of resurrection exists for Necrons and Chaos and even then it has incredibly specific particulars, and even then there are means of permanently killing them with no means of ever ocming back. Unless specifically crafted for the thematics of the story in question, resurrection is one of the single worst things an author can inflict on any work and immediately leads to escalation that eventually turns death into a revolving door. And when death itself has no real consequences in the story, there's really no reason to give a damn about the story in the first place. See the main universes of DC or Marvel in terms of degrading things into a total literary farce that would be aborting any faint shreds of quality remaining as Warhammer fully leaps into the wretched realm of serialized cape tropes.

[Scribe]

Dark Elder get away with death too. But that's on pat with the fact they are losing their souls every day and everything about them is about avoiding death.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

dorn was retconned from having his whole skeleton in possession of the imperial fists to just his hand...not sure why a similar retcon for sanguinius would be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

his body is in stasis, a little retcon about dante going to his body to seek guidance and reflect could result in dante seeing a flicker of the primarch's eyelid, or some other extremely minor twitch or tick, and then after many years of collaboration between cawl and the sanguinary priests, viola sanguinius is up and walking around.

again, i don't think this should happen, but i don't think any of the primarchs should be playable in 40k period. to me it just seems like a cash grab to revitalize the game when it starts to sag.
 

[Evil Eye]

I am firmly of the opinion that actually dead Primarchs (Curze, Horus, Sanguinius, Ferrus Manus and possibly Dorn) should stay dead. Horus' soul was literally erased from existence, Sanguinius' death is one of the most important parts of the lore, Ferrus Manus' head got lopped off and IIRC ended up on Horus' throne, Curze's death is, whilst not as impactful on the setting as Sanguinius', a pretty heavy, defining moment which bringing him back would utterly ruin, and with the Lion, the Khan, Corvus Corax, Vulkan and Russ still unaccounted for, there's no real reason why Dorn needs to be brought back if they need another loyalist Primarch up and about.

[Volt]

I am firmly of the opinion that actually dead Primarchs (Curze, Horus, Sanguinius, Ferrus Manus and possibly Dorn) should stay dead. Horus' soul was literally erased from existence, Sanguinius' death is one of the most important parts of the lore, Ferrus Manus' head got lopped off and IIRC ended up on Horus' throne, Curze's death is, whilst not as impactful on the setting as Sanguinius', a pretty heavy, defining moment which bringing him back would utterly ruin, and with the Lion, the Khan, Corvus Corax, Vulkan and Russ still unaccounted for, there's no real reason why Dorn needs to be brought back if they need another loyalist Primarch up and about.

Ferrus I think actually could come back and perhaps some literary use to function namely in how he utterly clashes with the modern culture of the Legion in a similar regard to the Lion, whereas Sanguinius, Curze, and Horus need to stay dead because they simply have no further tale to tell. If Curze, Horus, or Sanguinius it'd basically just be for them to strut around for fan adoration and to rake in money without any regard to story quality because they just are finished works. Which tbh is probably one of the reasons I wish another Primarch other than Guilliman was brought back, as Bobby G just doesn't have a whole lot going for him compared to if Khan, Lion-O, or Ferrus came back. What would be interesting is if the Lion or Ferrus literally massacred their legions in a manner similar to Angron simply by being so enraged by their modern incarnations and despising what they had become.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

I am firmly of the opinion that actually dead Primarchs (Curze, Horus, Sanguinius, Ferrus Manus and possibly Dorn) should stay dead. Horus' soul was literally erased from existence, Sanguinius' death is one of the most important parts of the lore, Ferrus Manus' head got lopped off and IIRC ended up on Horus' throne, Curze's death is, whilst not as impactful on the setting as Sanguinius', a pretty heavy, defining moment which bringing him back would utterly ruin, and with the Lion, the Khan, Corvus Corax, Vulkan and Russ still unaccounted for, there's no real reason why Dorn needs to be brought back if they need another loyalist Primarch up and about.

Ferrus I think actually could come back and perhaps some literary use to function namely in how he utterly clashes with the modern culture of the Legion in a similar regard to the Lion, whereas Sanguinius, Curze, and Horus need to stay dead because they simply have no further tale to tell. If Curze, Horus, or Sanguinius it'd basically just be for them to strut around for fan adoration and to rake in money without any regard to story quality because they just are finished works. Which tbh is probably one of the reasons I wish another Primarch other than Guilliman was brought back, as Bobby G just doesn't have a whole lot going for him compared to if Khan, Lion-O, or Ferrus came back. What would be interesting is if the Lion or Ferrus literally massacred their legions in a manner similar to Angron simply by being so enraged by their modern incarnations and despising what they had become.

thats exactly what they did with guilliman waking up...poor story surrounding it, but rakes in a :cuss load of money...

[WARMASTER_]

 

 

I am firmly of the opinion that actually dead Primarchs (Curze, Horus, Sanguinius, Ferrus Manus and possibly Dorn) should stay dead. Horus' soul was literally erased from existence, Sanguinius' death is one of the most important parts of the lore, Ferrus Manus' head got lopped off and IIRC ended up on Horus' throne, Curze's death is, whilst not as impactful on the setting as Sanguinius', a pretty heavy, defining moment which bringing him back would utterly ruin, and with the Lion, the Khan, Corvus Corax, Vulkan and Russ still unaccounted for, there's no real reason why Dorn needs to be brought back if they need another loyalist Primarch up and about.

Ferrus I think actually could come back and perhaps some literary use to function namely in how he utterly clashes with the modern culture of the Legion in a similar regard to the Lion, whereas Sanguinius, Curze, and Horus need to stay dead because they simply have no further tale to tell. If Curze, Horus, or Sanguinius it'd basically just be for them to strut around for fan adoration and to rake in money without any regard to story quality because they just are finished works. Which tbh is probably one of the reasons I wish another Primarch other than Guilliman was brought back, as Bobby G just doesn't have a whole lot going for him compared to if Khan, Lion-O, or Ferrus came back. What would be interesting is if the Lion or Ferrus literally massacred their legions in a manner similar to Angron simply by being so enraged by their modern incarnations and despising what they had become.

Ferrus needs to stay dead as much as the rest who died did you can’t argue about lack of consequences for the rest but than arbitrarily want to bring back the first one to die

 

Again Im sorry but saying only ferrus would have a worth while narrative is just incorrect, they all would but at the cost of destroying years of pre established lore. It’s just not something GW should do or would do

 

The only primarchs that could reasonably return are The lion, Khan and Russ

 

Guiliman had to return, apart from possibly the lion he’s the only one who could actually have the tactical acumen to organise the imperium’s defence and reconquest, they needed a tactician not a warrior