What lore progression would you like to see?

[Scribe]

None of them should come back, in any way, if they died.

 

Rob wasn't dead, he gets a pass, even if it took some poor writing to do it.

[sarabando]

if they do bring Sang back it should have a heavy cost, he cant cure the black rage and its weighing heavily on him, hell make his red thirst start to take over and makes him more like Angron or Kurze.

 

Id be fine with Cloned fulgrim coming back and id love to see him as a loyalist with cloned Ferrus and it should drive real fulgrim howling mad.

 

if Horus came back it should have a huge impact on the status quo upto and including the death of the emperor and the destruction of the golden throne/terra etc.

 

All of these things can work as others have stated with a good author, but they need weight.

[Ishagu]

I'm honestly surprised the Lion isn't back yet.

 

I'm genuinely hoping that they release him alongside the Dark Angels supplement. He requires minimal lore and story to be re-introduced.

[redmapa]

I'm honestly surprised the Lion isn't back yet.

 

I'm genuinely hoping that they release him alongside the Dark Angels supplement. He requires minimal lore and story to be re-introduced.

 

The Lion would be so boring though, I mean I get that they have teased his return since forever and out of all Primarchs hes the one that the most alive (before Guilliman's return) but what stories can be told with him? He's Guilliamn but green, he will have the same cultural shock and will unite his legion once again just like Guilliman did and go out to fight some Primarch somewhere or whatever, the Fallen are not even a full faction that they can explore with the Lion, they are a footnote on the Dark Angel's lore with barely a description of what they are doing or what Luther has been doing for the past 200 years since Guilliman return, the Fallen are just vaguely amassing forces somewhere to do something, maybe.

 

The Lion adds nothing that Guilliman hasnt already added to 40k, Corax on the other hand is the polar opposite of Guilliman and even more so now that he is essentially a demon or a powerful psyker (or a mutant), he knows and has seen the metaphysical side of his own existence and has become something more than a Primarch and those are things Guilliman has trouble grasping or even acknowledging, would they love or hate each other? Would Corax see the Emperor as a tyrant or as grim salvation? Now that Corax is touched by the warp I could even see him on a quest to find the Legion of the Damned, perhaps even taking over them or aiding them, there are avenues to explore with Corax that no other primarch offers and I dont think GW gave the green light to depict Corax as a demon  of sorts chasing the Word Bearers only to never use him again.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

what i don't get about being dead set that sanguinius stays dead, is no one seems upset that dorn went from confirmed dead (skeleton in the hands of the imperial fists) to possibly dead, possibly alive (imperial fists only has his hand.)

i won't lie when i came back to 40k and heard about guilliman coming back, the primaris, and all that...i refused to return to my marines, and spent the first 9 months focused only on my IG army, even the dude who is saying he'll quit, if they bring sanguinius back probably won't, at least not long term any way.

[redmapa]

For one that retcon happened almost 20 years ago on Index Astartes in 3rd ed if Im not mistaken, so its been a while now. Then there's the fact that Dorn's death isnt a crucial part of the Horus Heresy lore or of the Imperial Fists the same way Sanguinius is to Blood Angels, they still have his corpse and use it to keep the blood of Sanguinius alive if Im not mistaken and undoing his sacrifice to the Imperium and the ramifications his death brought to his legion seem like any sort of consequence in 40k might as well be thrown out the window. Dorn's death doesnt matter, Sanguinius' death is key to 40k the same way the Emperor's sacrifice is.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

For one that retcon happened almost 20 years ago on Index Astartes in 3rd ed if Im not mistaken, so its been a while now. Then there's the fact that Dorn's death isnt a crucial part of the Horus Heresy lore or of the Imperial Fists the same way Sanguinius is to Blood Angels, they still have his corpse and use it to keep the blood of Sanguinius alive if Im not mistaken and undoing his sacrifice to the Imperium and the ramifications his death brought to his legion seem like any sort of consequence in 40k might as well be thrown out the window. Dorn's death doesnt matter, Sanguinius' death is key to 40k the same way the Emperor's sacrifice is.

bringing him back would change nothing about the Horus heresy story, and would not change anything about the curses. The thirst was always there, and Sanguinius coming back would not undo the psychic trauma imbedded in his geneseed from being struck down would not be magically undone. Trauma doesn't work like that

[redmapa]

It would devalue the weight of those events and his sacrifice as well as making death into a non issus in 40k, you might as well bring them all back if Sanguinius can come back to life.

[Rik Lightstar]

In all fairness other than Vulkan who's a Perpetual, Sanguinius is the best placed in terms of background to be able to return from death.

 

His entire schtick is being the Noble Vampire, the one who controls the dark, bestial, terrifying side of his nature for a higher purpose. He's constantly restraining himself from indulging in an orgy of blood drinking that could drain entire planets.

 

His successors have explored a bit of the darker side of this duality, with some Chapters being "questionable" in their methods and ceremonies. Blood Drinks, Flesh Tearers, Flesh Eaters are some examples.

 

If he was to come back, being darker and less in control would be a fantastic twist, the heralded "Angel" becoming a figure of dread across the Imperium. Especially if it was a slow burn in the reveal.

 

The uncontrolled fury of the Death Company is an expression of Sanguinius' mindset in the last minutes of his life. Mephiston is an example of what happens if someone can make it through that "phase". He never recovered as such, he's changed and not all for the better.

 

In summary a Vampire coming back from the dead is hardly a stretch. But it should have a personal price that is hard to reconcile.

 

Rik

[WARMASTER_]

what i don't get about being dead set that sanguinius stays dead, is no one seems upset that dorn went from confirmed dead (skeleton in the hands of the imperial fists) to possibly dead, possibly alive (imperial fists only has his hand.)

 

You’re comparing a iconic moment it 40K lore to a foot note in a scrap of lore, the final and most defining act of the Horus heresy before the novel series even began was that Sanguinius was killed by Horus as a sacrifice so the emperor could kill Horus its even probably the most iconic art work Adrian smith

 

Then you compare that to “dawn was overwhelmed in a boarding action sometime after” they didn’t really even change the lore they went from died to found a hand

 

You can’t just change the crux of the entire heresy because you want a primarch to return, all the dead ones should stay dead

[dice4thedicegod]

I’d be happy if the next two primarchs to return were:

 

Cloned fulgrim: loyalist (but under a cloud - not a challenger to guilliman)

 

Original fulgrim: appearing to crush the annoying clone

[sarabando]

I’d be happy if the next two primarchs to return were:

 

Cloned fulgrim: loyalist (but under a cloud - not a challenger to guilliman)

 

Original fulgrim: appearing to crush the annoying clone

id like this, maybe along with Cawl reforming loyalist versions of the fallen legions.

[Brother Tyler]

Note that this topic is all of the off topic discussion about lore progression/returning Primarchs that originally took place in the discussion about GW resolving some mysteries.

 

Realistically, the posts focusing on the return of the Primarchs should be taken to this extant topic that is specifically about returning Primarchs, but I'm leaving it here as a broad discussion about the whole range of possible lore progressions (e.g., fleshing out the Ynnari, impact of upcoming campaigns on the Adeptus Mechanicus, whatever...).

[Slave to Darkness]

Id like to see some named characters get killed off, and actually doing something with the Ynnari would be nice too considering that was a major thing in the lore thats now just vanished up its own eye of terror. 

Edited December 7, 2020 by Slave to Darkness

[Scribe]

Id like to see some named characters get killed off, and actually doing something with the Ynnari would be nice too considering that was a major thing in the lore thats now just vanished up its own eye of terror. 

 

I'd really like to see how they square the Ynnari with...the entire history of the setting. I just dont see it.

[Urauloth]

Cawl reforming loyalist versions of the fallen legions

 

I think it's fairly likely he's already doing this despite being told not to. I doubt we'll see more than hints about it anytime soon, though.

[Felix Antipodes]

Id like to see some named characters get killed off, and actually doing something with the Ynnari would be nice too considering that was a major thing in the lore thats now just vanished up its own eye of terror.

 

This here is the nub of the entire topic for me. What would I like to see GW progress? Every bloody thing they start, because they have rarely finished, let alone progressed, anything. The Ynnari are a perfect example of this. Introduced with much fanfare and promised to be an important change in Aeldari, they are all but forgotten ten minutes later. Who expects to hear anything more about Vigilus or any of the PA settings? Did the forces of Chaos go on holidays after finally breaking Cadia? You get the drift.

[Slave to Darkness]

 

Id like to see some named characters get killed off, and actually doing something with the Ynnari would be nice too considering that was a major thing in the lore thats now just vanished up its own eye of terror.

This here is the nub of the entire topic for me. What would I like to see GW progress? Every bloody thing they start, because they have rarely finished, let alone progressed, anything. The Ynnari are a perfect example of this. Introduced with much fanfare and promised to be an important change in Aeldari, they are all but forgotten ten minutes later. Who expects to hear anything more about Vigilus or any of the PA settings? Did the forces of Chaos go on holidays after finally breaking Cadia? You get the drift.

 

It feels like nothing has changed, we just have a bigger Eye of Terror setting Chaos up as a major threat for once yet all of a sudden we have Alphasuperhenchmarines on ice since before the heresy that have just popped up out of nowhere rolf stomping everyone into the traditional stalemate we have had since the early days of 40k... The more things change the more they stay the same. 

 

 

[Medjugorje]

to be honest. I dont like the focus on primarchs now. 40k used to be the time after the primarchs had failed. The majority of the loyal ones is death and the traitor ones which survived are not interested in the material world and the hands of the impirium is on the hand of chapter masters and the high lords of terra. 

 

I always liked the idea that the legions were gone and each chapter has its own traditions and the majority dont have any connection with their primogenitor.

 

I would like to see a few primarchs coming back, but they have very hard times because the world has changed... Like the story of Gulliman who see the Imperial cult as enemy but on the same time is so hard under pressure that he needs the Black Templars around him (which believe in the emperor as a god) and later on even a Fallen Dark Angel.

[Volt]

 

Id like to see some named characters get killed off, and actually doing something with the Ynnari would be nice too considering that was a major thing in the lore thats now just vanished up its own eye of terror.

This here is the nub of the entire topic for me. What would I like to see GW progress? Every bloody thing they start, because they have rarely finished, let alone progressed, anything. The Ynnari are a perfect example of this. Introduced with much fanfare and promised to be an important change in Aeldari, they are all but forgotten ten minutes later. Who expects to hear anything more about Vigilus or any of the PA settings? Did the forces of Chaos go on holidays after finally breaking Cadia? You get the drift.

 

This is why I've been dealing with a lot of burnout lately, namely the full realization that GW doesn't actually give a damn about anything and caring about the story to any degree is functionally pointless because not only will it not be resolved - it'll have no lasting consequences. Cities may fall and permanently burn in Age of Sigmar, but in 40k the status quo is so omnipresent that we now see the timeline get wound back 88 years just to cram in even more novels that amount to nothing ultimately - either in quality or any actual impact on the universe. The biggest issue is just that the Great Rift... really isn't. If GW had actual balls the Imperium Nihilus should be utterly cut off with literally zero communication, no trade, no logistic connections, no Primaris, and no Astronomicon at all. But instead of the Dark Imperium being dark, it's still readily illuminated, in contact, traveled to, and has physical connection by form of trade/logistic runs, etc so nothing is actually different.

 

Likewise whenever GW says anything in terms of release (or any other part of the umbrella like the BL or FW) I can't help but roll my eyes at any mention of there being any SHOCKING RAMIFICATIONS or AMAZING CONCLUSION, because we know it's going to amount to all. You can't keep writing campaigns going all the way back to the original 13th Black Crusade and keep retconning, walking back, or just outright ignoring consequences and expect there to be any remaining sense of emotional investment. It's like if Kal-El get capped in the back of the head by a kryptonite bullet in the main DC universe. You know it's not actually going to stick, it's too profitable of a character to whack, so he's just going to pop up and getting worried about whether or not Supes bites it for reals is a waste of energy. Which is the point 40k is at - there is no consequences.

 

Everything is handled with padded editor gloves so no faction actually suffers a meaningful setback, it's all just arbitrary blurbs of results that has little actual effect on the universe in the first place so there's no reason to care if Guilliman is waving a sword about with his umpteenth duel with Mortarion. The fight is between two immortal, unkillable enemies shielded by the almighty power of profit. So all that you have left is some absolutely abysmal quality drama with meaningless stakes so you can just tune out, there's no need to pay attention, no level of involvement.

 

So what needs to change? Hire actual writers and not hacks and stop bloody retconning events or shielding factions from the consequences of failures or success of others. There shouldn't be plot shields, not if you want to actually convey some sense of there being an actual war going on in the setting and not one giant power armor melodrama with George Lucas tier dialogue.

[WARMASTER_]

you’re off on so many points I can’t even begin, but I feel like you’re basically attacking everything 40K has ever been narratively, It’s always been a setting rather than a vast ever moving narrative so I just can’t see why you’ve either originally liked the setting or grown to dislike it so much now? They’ve finally done what you’re crying out for and moved it forward after 30 years and you’re still complaining?

 

Also they aren’t pulling back the setting 100 years they’re changing the date of a single conflict within the timeline...

 

I don’t know what lore you’re reading but in current books none of the ease you’re describing has happened or is happening at any point of Imperium Nihilis?

Edited December 11, 2020 by BladeOfVengeance

[WarriorFish]

Telling someone "40k isn't for you" is not particularly conducive to discussion. Disagreeing is not a problem and is an important part of any active discussion (otherwise it isn't much of one), but we very much aim for the "constructive" part of the mission statement in this regard. What amounts to hyperbole is not constructive, nor is any form of gate keeping. The former devalues your points; the latter is not welcome on the B&C.

 

Please give as much consideration and thought to other points of view as you would like to receive in return, and let us leave this as the final post on this matter so the topic and discussion can continue productively. Thanks.

[MegaVolt87]

I think the huge backlash against AoS where the old world died to set it up spooked GW entirely in doing anything impactful for 40k. Would have been better for the majority of OG named characters to have died to setup new ones, especially for SM. Too many old named characters are kicking about in the new timeline which is really de-valueing it IMO.

 

40k is a weird mix of old and new that's not really pleasing many right now. I think the AoS nuke should have dropped on 40k, not the old world of Warhammer.

[WARMASTER_]

If this discussion was happening in 7th I’d agree the galaxy timeline hadn’t move in nearly 30 years...But I just can’t see this nothing impactful has happened narrative though? You don’t need to kill off all of the named characters to make a story have weight... it honestly baffles me, GW did the most Impactful story arc of 30 years but because “X” character didn’t die it has no meaning? They’ve pushed the narrative in countless ways of late so I’m confused as to the lack of weight unless weight only comes from killing a chapter master?

 

From the books I’m currently reading or have read the imperium is a completely different place, Trillions died! The galaxy is in half. Chaos has a foot hold in real space... The list goes on

 

Where’s the lack of weight or consequence?

[Volt]

I think the huge backlash against AoS where the old world died to set it up spooked GW entirely in doing anything impactful for 40k. Would have been better for the majority of OG named characters to have died to setup new ones, especially for SM. Too many old named characters are kicking about in the new timeline which is really de-valueing it IMO.

 

40k is a weird mix of old and new that's not really pleasing many right now. I think the AoS nuke should have dropped on 40k, not the old world of Warhammer.

The funny thing is that while I utterly despised Age of Sigmar at first as a Warhammer Fantasy fan, I can't deny that it has a very effective run of novels, game design, and setting running compared to 40k, which feels more like it's becoming a live art piece replicating the rotting edifice of the Imperium - old, decrepit, and aging like milk. 40k pretends its campaigns never even happened and sweeps them and their consequences under the rug; Eldrad died? Nope he's right over there! Meanwhile AOS outright killed one of its major free peoples cities and made its name a cry like the Alamo because Order lost its campaign conclusively. The good and fresh talent gets put on the AOS wargame(s) after the utterly awful launch, while 40k gets headed by the lesser talent like Cruddace that leads to constant game-breaking content that needs swift Errata to fix because nobody put 2 & 2 together. AOS actually has a semi balanced release cycle not overfocusing on a specific faction after grumbling about Sigmarines, whereas the 40k release is Primaris all day every day.

 

Why the hell is 40k getting coal in its stocking? Is the studio just bored, scared, or disgruntled with the IP? Fantasy was always their preference, but it'd sure as hell be nice if the AOS experimentation was likewise done with 40k.