Spamming Primaris: Would it work?

[9x19 Parabellum]

So I figure you could get about 90 Primaris Infantry on the table (some combination of 60 Assault and regular intercessors + 30 reivers or veteran intercessors).

 

90*20(ish) = 1800 pts.

 

That leaves you enough for 2 HQ's; a Chaplain for the mortal wound littany + "spiritual leader" ability + Librarian for Psychic fortress.

 

Custom Chapter with Stealthy, Stalwart.

 

The plan is simple; flood the board and objectives with 2 wound bodies and don't die.

 

What do you guys think? Would it work? What ways could improve upon this?

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I think I would try to fit in some incursors, forward deployment will come in handy. Especially because you'll need to dominate the primary objectives to win. Its different enough that I'm not sure how good it will do but it's worth a shot.

[Xenith]

I'd try and get Thunder hammers on squad leaders so your units actually have some damage output. I'd go with 60 primaris troops then try and get some hellblasters. 

 

10 - 20x Stalkers

20x Assault bolt rifles, hammers

20 Assault Int's, hammers.

 

Anything that keeps you in tactical doctrine for an extra turn is gravy. 

[Dracos]

What Xenith said but I might do this. :)

 

+ HQ +

Primaris Lieutenant: Master-crafted stalker bolt rifle

 

Primaris Captain: Master-crafted stalker bolt rifle

 

+ Troops +

9 Assault Intercessor Squad [sgt: Power sword]

9 Assault Intercessor Squad [sgt: Power sword]

 

10 Incursor Squad

10 Incursor Squad

 

10Intercessor Squad

10 Intercessor Squad

 

+ Heavy Support +

10 Hellblaster Squad

10 Hellblaster Squad

 

++ Total: [101 PL, 12CP, 1,997pts] ++

[gorg_graggel]

https://youtu.be/BUYmf2nkktA

 

It's for 8th and only the Intercessors available then, but might be a good starting point.

[Daynga-Zone]

Could do something similar/better with deathwatch veteran spam. Can take DWBG/Chainsword on all of them for the same price as intercessors basically making them into more flexible bolt rifle intercessors with a free chainsword each. Some storm shields mixed in makes them significantly more tanky as well as tons of relatively cheap weapon upgrade options if you want some anti tank or extra melee punch mixed in.

 

It’s not primaris, but that line seems to be blurring with veterans getting more attacks and firstborn more wounds.

[Captain Idaho]

The idea in the OP provides a high level of board control and objectives (Primary and Secondary) will be your advantage. The real question is whether the opponent can kill enough to win the game?

 

I actually think it might be a solid choice, if somewhat boring. Bladeguard and other choices are all much more interesting simply because they do different things.

 

So, what armies and combinations can kill that many bodies to win a game?

[Riddlesworth]

the challenge with it, is that common marine units point out very effectively against your baseline intercessor/infiltrator/incursor/reiver statline, and D2 is becoming more and more prevalent in other armies.

 

example: plasma inceptors (1 round of shooting), bladeguard (1 turn of combat with shock assault active), even flamer aggressors (1 turn of shoot+shock assault) will, on average, kill close to a point for each point spent on them versus those profiles. the reverse is not true of the intercessor - ignoring that incursors and infiltrators are less killy than them and reivers.....are reivers. meaning that the efficient units are going to get a chance to do it again and kill well over their points value.

 

So you have this awkward ride where you're trying to get on objectives early to score max primary in turns 2 and 3 before your opponent whittles you down and drags back their own max primary points in turns 3, 4 and 5. Consistent scoring secondaries will become vital, as will mitigating fire lanes. terrain heavy tables for every cover bonus you can get your hands on as well as effective screening out of combat units (not allowing multi charges will be big)

 

I think the list Dracos posted up matches out better while maintaining a body count, because you have the added punch of hellblasters. giving the intercessor sergeants combat weapons also helps. I'd also run the indomitus captain and LT in that list to have a counter punch helping your boys out. Vox Espiritum is a great relic in that set up (especially with hellblasters). squeezing in an apothecary also has value for the rez and blunting the D2 16% of the time. So we're talking 70 bodies and toys, rather than 90.

 

lots of chapter options for this sort of list. Iron Hands makes you that much harder to kill with the FNP on so many multi wound bodies. raven guard will double down on your board control. White Scars are a better pick than blood angels i think because you have a high volume of low quality attacks when combat inevitably happens, and you'll appreciate +1D more than +1 to wound.

 

All that considered, I wonder if the better option is to do this with the chonky bois - heavy intercessors, aggressors, inceptors, eradicators

 

For 1930 points you can get - gravis captain, librarian, 15 heavy intercessors, 10 aggressors, 10 plasma inceptors, 6 eradicators and a primaris apothecary, leaving you 70 for chapter command upgrades. Its 123 wounds compared to 180 from the OP, but its on T5 platforms rather than T4 and (more importantly), makes all the D2 much less efficient as for every 4 wounds caused, 1 is wasted.

[TheNewman]

Six Eradicators is the kind of thing that'll make it hard to find casual games (depending on the OP's intent) but you could swap them for a full squad of Invaders for maximum chonk.

[Riddlesworth]

Six Eradicators is the kind of thing that'll make it hard to find casual games (depending on the OP's intent) but you could swap them for a full squad of Invaders for maximum chonk.

 

this is true. invaders and outriders are part of the chonk squads. T5 multi wound shell. invaders are a good fit as they bring the melta. outriders with the fixed squad and competing with inceptors is a tough one.

 

My 6 eradicators has recently become 5 boltstorm aggressors for that reason. Whether I agree with it or not.

[Dracos]

I’m slowly building said chonkie boy list with the exception I will keep two units of Incursors and building a unit of Bladeguard be said ... cool. Everything else is Gravis. Can’t be actualized until Heavy Intercessors come out. Also the HQs are limited. Would really like a Gravis Chaplain but will settle for using either Outrider Chaplain or more likely Bladeguard Lieutenant for now.

 

Would never run this list without being it being Raven Guard though. Fun but ridiculous that Masters of the Shadows get the least out of running Phobos and the most out of running Gravis lol.

[TheNewman]

That's GW rule writing for you.

 

I run a White Scar list kind of in the spirit of what the OP was talking about, two squads of Intercessors, Incursors, Bikes, Attack Bikes, and character support at 1000, it works pretty well.

[9x19 Parabellum]

As much as I like the chunky boi idea, that's not really what the theme was about.  Some of this is, admittedly, aesthetics. 

 

As the one poster said (Idaho) 90 bodies is just SO much board presence. You can also combat squad where it makes sense to.

 

Hellblaster sdon't really fit into the them of what I'm trying to do here, which is flood the table with as many T4, 2w, 3+ armor saves as possible.   The army is not about doing damage, it's about winning by attrition-secured (that's a little pun/joke, get it, hahah)

 

90 Intercessors of any stripe will chew through bodies like a champ. It will of course struggle with TEQ and other elites and vehicles. But I don't know if an army will have the volume to handle 90 Primaris bodies, especially once you start adding in defensive buffs.

For example, the Stalwart custom chapter tactic will play mind games with anyone using Plasma to counter my threat.  Overcharged plasma wounding on 3's?  Bleh. 

 

Add in the fact that this force isn't really intersted in killing. It's more interested in staying alive. As such it can be very cheeky with playing hide-and-seek with terrain.

 

As for the elite slots, to whoever mentioned it, I probably wouldn't use Reivers. I'd go with either veteran assault intercessors, or possibly sternguard veterans as they are a little cheaper and still 2 wounds.  (I realize they aren't primaris, but hey we don't live in a perfect world; it's really about flooding 2 wound models). 

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I honestly think for your concept that incursors and possibly infiltrators would make more sense than the elite options you listed. Your just gonna need bodies on the mid field objectives 1st cause you won't be great at pushing other units off of them. Its asking alot for foot Intercessors to get to them so you can max the primary at the start of your second turn. If your going with raven guard that changes things but I think scars, and ultras would be better chapters for that style.

[Riddlesworth]

Apologies for the chunky boi diversion. Maybe my initial point was lost. The lethality of the game is at a point where chewing through 90 primaris bodies is tough, but very doable.

 

The tools to make that 90 bodies more survivable - the right chapter tactics, supporting characters, strats - exist but come at the cost of bodies also. Finding the balance of that is important.

 

As I said, that army needs to max out primary in turns 2 and 3 and have solid scoring secondaries because by turn 4 i expect to have it whittled down a fair bit

Edited December 8, 2020 by Riddlesworth

[Mandragola]

I’ve been thinking about this kind of list myself. It might work but I’m not sure. There are a number of things to consider.

 

40K is a very lethal game right now. Can enemies put down 90 Primaris bodies? Well, maybe they can. If you put together an army based on asking your opponent a question like this I think you hand them the initiative - if they can handle your army, you lose and can’t do much about it. I think that blood angels might just walk straight through you, for example. Or maybe you find you’re playing rock/paper/scissors where you auto-win against some people and auto-lose against others.

 

It looks to me like Death Guard might do this job better. That -1 to damage looks fantastic on plague marines, which are also T5. Where some armies can sweep Primaris away, it’s far harder to do that with plague marines, meaning they may work to flood the board more often than these guys would.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Yeah deathguard appear to be a tough matchup for this style of list. Its really gonna depend on what other changes deathguard recieved and how efficient plague marines are.

[Dracos]

Deathguard are going to be hard to counter by most armies. With Primaris likely to still be very heavy in the meta its going to be hard choice to how much D2 weapons are taken. Deathguards rise will likely nudge alot of the meta back to D1 weapons as it's hard tp spam D3 weapons. 

 

Assuming the above is true it kind of helps Primaris spam. I'll be very happy to see some non-3+ save armies getting their Codex 

[tychobi]

I have toyed with this idea. Called it the "wet blanket". Smother the objectives. I it works if can keep from getting in your own way. And do not run up against 2d spam. Run salamanders and some apocatharies for maximum survivability. Good luck!

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Deathguard are going to be hard to counter by most armies. With Primaris likely to still be very heavy in the meta its going to be hard choice to how much D2 weapons are taken. Deathguards rise will likely nudge alot of the meta back to D1 weapons as it's hard tp spam D3 weapons.

 

Assuming the above is true it kind of helps Primaris spam. I'll be very happy to see some non-3+ save armies getting their Codex

I think typical marine lists will have answers for deathguard. Between the dreads, plasma inceptors (don't overcharge obviously), and melta dudes you'll be able to at least shove them off some objectives. The Intercessor spam will be relying on str 4 to get the job done and that's going to be a tough road, plus the -1 T debuff is gonna be rough.

[Riddlesworth]

 

I think typical marine lists will have answers for deathguard. Between the dreads, plasma inceptors (don't overcharge obviously), and melta dudes you'll be able to at least shove them off some objectives. The Intercessor spam will be relying on str 4 to get the job done and that's going to be a tough road, plus the -1 T debuff is gonna be rough.

 

For all the rage decrying the change to disgustingly resilient, Contagion of Nurgle is just an incredible buff. for their anti infantry weapons vs infantry, its basically a +1 to wound buff, so combatting them off objectives becomes very difficult from a resource management point of view and if blight haulers/drones have the death guard keyword, they'll have the speed to apply the debuff where they need it for shooting.

 

That doesn't mean the 90 primaris idea is dead, just that if Death Guard do become popular, there's a frequent hard counter to the army.

[9x19 Parabellum]

Do we know what plague marines are going to cost now? Has that been dropped?

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

We don't know how much they cost yet. The vehicles will probably go up a bit as well point wise with the buffs they received.

[Mandragola]

My point wasn't really just that DG are a hard counter for this list - though they might well be. It's more that they do everything this list does, better. If you want to spread tough models over the board then plague marines are tougher than Primaris. They're also a lot nastier in melee, though their shooting isn't quite as good.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Yeah Mandragola I saw you were offering deathguard as an alternative. I just didn't see a way for Intercessor spam to overcome it and this is a thread about how viable spamming them would be. If plague marines are priced in the low to mid twenties it's going to be very difficult for an army that relies on str 4 for offense and two wounds at T4 to grind them out (and deathguard will definitely be a better choice for this type of list).