Landraider viability

[Syrakul]

As the SM codex is now out as a reference, and with expectations of CSM's play-style, What do you think about the viability of landraiders in CSM armies in 9th?

 

I have a broken shell of one I have the itch of fixing into a Red Corsairs Melee transporter, though haven't played any 9th ed. games.

 

 

Also interested to hear thoughts on Spartans and the like in a similar vein, thanks!

[Plague _Lord]

I've been taking a LR with my deathguard for years now. I've only lost it once from the start of 8th.

 

It's dmg output is swingy - I've had games where the LR took out both a tank and a screen in a single phase. I've also had games where I rolled four 1's to wound with the lascannons...

 

The improved profile of the heavy bolter helps it but it still needs to go down about 30-40 pts tbh

[TorvaldTheMild]

They can be worth it against armies with low strength dakka, but still very expensive for low/average point games.  They can be worth it for World Eaters as getting them in the right place safely can make up for their high points/lack of dakka for those points.

[dice4thedicegod]

In loyalist armies, The lack of core will hurt it - you can’t get all the rerolls to maximize the las cannon power.

 

Crusaders are just bad since so much of the meta went to 2W 3+ infantry... the hurricane bolters are horribly inefficient at removing them.

 

They need a little push to make them worth it (which they didn’t get in the loyalist codex, so doubt that they will in CSM). Basically, take them if they fill a necessary transport hole AND their shooting will be a bonus. But don’t take them as a MBT.

[Snazzy]

Loyalists have the advantages of Techmarines giving a +1 to hit, improved HK Missiles and Multimeltas, Doctrines and better Chapter Tactics.  Even they don't use Land Raiders.

[Cheex]

I'm finding it hard to justify them in my meta - too many Eradicators to make them feasible for me. Which is a shame, since I have four of the buggers painted.

 

They really deserve an invul save and assault ramps.

[Snazzy]

You mind explaining that to the Eradicator apologists that seem to think everyone else is crazy?

[Iron Father Ferrum]

once I can get back to playing, I'm planning to run one with my Alpha Legion. I do not fear Eradicators: between Scrambled Coordinates pushing reserve meltas out of their half range sweet spot and Ambush letting the Land Raider reduce a squad before they fire, we actually have a bit of a leg up on them.

 

More generally, you can increase their durability with any of the three God-aligned psychic powers. It's by no means a great solution, but it can help. We'll see how the next codex on the presumably reworked Legion Traits work out. Hopefully that'll make taking one easier for us all.

[tychobi]

Not top table viable in the present iteration. Could be fun to stuff with melee cultists. Too unreliable a delivery system for quality troops. If you put anything i care about in it im gonna pop it in your deployment zone or worse move block it with a flyer. I love facing landraiders. Easy pickings.

[Syrakul]

Thank you for the responses! Ouch yep so another edition without viable reason to take em.

Even my expensive spartan was torn apart in 8th every game, and that cost will sink a list when its taken out.

 

Unless Chaos is given some additional viability over SM in light of our lack of transport options in our eventual codex (like a daemonforged invuln)

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Alternatively, try taking one a few games and see if you can find a way to make it work for you.

[MegaVolt87]

LR proteus with the web would synergise well with how AL is currently. Bit of a hard sell for the LR if you already on a Spartan like myself. I am just sticking with the "safe" buys if I am getting anything. (vindi, preds). 

[Karhedron]

Land Raiders suffer from the same problem they have always had. GW charges for both their offensive output and their transport capacity but it is surprisingly hard to leverage both at the same time. If they are acting as Transports, then they are goiong where the infantry inside need to be and not necessarily where the tanks want to be to maximise their firepower. Also, getting close to the enemy risks them getting tied up in melee which further hinders their shooting. If you want firepower with a bit of mobility then Predators get similar dakka for a lot less points.

 

With daemon engines going to BS3+, I think these will serve better in a lot of cases, as will Hellbrutes. They can move and fire effectively and also pack a punch in melee. Daemon Engines get and Invulnerable save while Hellbrutes are likely to get the Chaos equivalent of "Duty Eternal".

[ChazSexington]

Thank you for the responses! Ouch yep so another edition without viable reason to take em.

Even my expensive spartan was torn apart in 8th every game, and that cost will sink a list when its taken out.

 

Unless Chaos is given some additional viability over SM in light of our lack of transport options in our eventual codex (like a daemonforged invuln)

 

Not necessarily. We will, sooner or later (probably later), get a codex. It doesn't work in 9th for the Loyalists, but if Eradicators' cost gets increased and the LR comes down, it might work. 

 

That said, that's the tournament meta. Locally, that doesn't necessarily matter. I would run it without necessarily fixing it up a few times. If it does terribly, don't bother, but it might be a fun and worthwhile choice if you're not playing 3-5th round in a GT.  

[Syrakul]

About the transport/gunboat jack of all trades master of none issue, Ill wishlist a bit but an easy win for GW would be the option to omit the lascannons and offer increased capacity, say by 5 more models. No modification of the kit needed. Not totally out of line with creative kit use GW have done in the past with AoS death units.

It would help present a smaller target and require less investment, but would enable CSM to take blobs into the fray, very much our style.

 

Aside from that my post started as whether or not to attempt repairing a husk of a LR I got in a trade, then mangled trying to make into a large IG tank 10 years ago.

Id more likely try running my spartan and also try proxying it as a normal LR

[Sonoftherubric21]

In most casual metas or even semi-casuals it will probably do fine. 

 

I used engines regularly and did fairly well locally, and that was when they were considered awful. 

 

YMMV however! 

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Iron Warriors can make LR's work with all of their tricks to boost vehicles, but honestly, there are more efficient targets for those tricks.

[Relentless]

Rule of cool has me putting one in my list occasionally, usually to transport terminators.  I really wish we could get some other weapon options for ours other than just lascannons.

[Snazzy]

More generally, you can increase their durability with any of the three God-aligned psychic powers. It's by no means a great solution, but it can help. We'll see how the next codex on the presumably reworked Legion Traits work out. Hopefully that'll make taking one easier for us all.

 

Additionally, you can use Warp Sight Plea from the DA, or Prescience to increase the firepower.

 

The problem we currently have is that there are very few Stratagems that can target our vehicles.  The real strength of Loyalist Land Raiders is the amount of firepower crammed on a single, mobile model.  An IF Land Raider can kill or cripple two models of similar toughness using Tank Hunters.  The problem, so far as i see it, is the same reoccurring problem we have all the time.  Our Land Raider costs the same as the Loyalist version, but has fewer and inferior upgrades.  

[Jings]

Honestly I think a 5++, Assault Ramp and Rapid Fire weapons to make them worth using would make them go from awful to viable. 

[Goreshed]

Chaos Landraiders suffer from what Chaos always suffers from. By fluff we have so many options yet GW doesn't give us those options on the table top.

 

There is zero reason why we couldn't have hades plasma cannons on the sides of them. Or some version of the assault launchers. Or something else for that matter entirely like making it a mobile gate to the warp and allowing us to bring units in a similar fashion to the Necrons. And given the fact that GW is obviously working normal marines out of the picture and going straight Primaris I would hope that they would reevaluate the rhino/predator/land raider and give us something more chaos out of them.

[Snazzy]

GW has moved increasingly in a direction of the kit options=the rules options.  Plasma Cannons, or any other weapon option requires redoing the Land Raider kit.  I just don't see that happening.  The Chaos Land Raider is in the position it has been since 3rd edition because it was an afterthought for GW.  The Loyalist version got a plastic/metal hybrid kit in the Crusader.  Then, it got the combined plastic Crusader and Redeemer integrated into one kit.  During this time the Chaos Land Raider got nothing.  GW's focus has been Daemon Engines, not left over Loyalist vehicles.

 

For the Chaos Land Raider to be good it will require a 9th edition Codex that includes things like improved Legion traits, Stratagems, and/or non-modeled upgrades like Daemonic Possession. 

[Relentless]

They dont need to re-do the kit, they just need to give some some weapon upgrade sprues like the Baneblade gets

[Syrakul]

Hence my point that by taking away options (lets us take it as a huge stripped down transport) should work out of the box, unless it doesnt have 4 side doors included

[Snazzy]

They dont need to re-do the kit, they just need to give some some weapon upgrade sprues like the Baneblade gets

 

 

That still requires they update the kit.  I just don't see it happening.  They have had two decades to update the Chaos Land Raider, and haven't.