What if the lost primarchs took their legions to the warp...

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

So, what if the two lost primarchs fled to the warp in order to become chaos gods of their own?

How long would such a transformation take? Would it even be possible?

 

That's the only thing I could think of that might top turning traitor and justifying completely purging the lost primarchs and their legions.

[Syrakul]

To become chaos gods? How was one hunted down by leman russ/wolves without giving up knowledge of the warp at that time?

 

Im my mind it would be they were raised with empathy for xenos and/or on a xenos world. The Emperor purging their adoptive family or simply the billions of other xenos during the crusade made them turn against their father.

 

Hell in the grand scheme of the Emperor, proported as a 5d chess game against chaos, their determined traits (as each primarch had their own role) might have simply not befit the current timeline. Perhaps another potential timeline saw the Emperor solicit a truce with the eldar, and some other Primarch's would've been eliminated.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

To become chaos gods? How was one hunted down by leman russ/wolves without giving up knowledge of the warp at that time?

 

Im my mind it would be they were raised with empathy for xenos and/or on a xenos world. The Emperor purging their adoptive family or simply the billions of other xenos during the crusade made them turn against their father.

 

Hell in the grand scheme of the Emperor, proported as a 5d chess game against chaos, their determined traits (as each primarch had their own role) might have simply not befit the current timeline. Perhaps another potential timeline saw the Emperor solicit a truce with the eldar, and some other Primarch's would've been eliminated.

being sympathetic to xenos doesn't seem like a more serious crime compared to what the traitors did...

[MARK0SIAN]

My own theory has always been that the lost primarchs/Legions suffered badly from some sort of genetic instability/mutation which meant they had to be purged. We know the Legions had such issues and perhaps theirs went beyond what could be controlled or what was tolerable and they had to be purged.

 

On the few occasions when the characters mention or allude to them in the books it always seems tinged with sadness or regret about what happened. There’s not often such sentiments expressed when they’re talking about the traitor legions so it makes me think the fate of the missing legions was markedly different.

[Grotsmasha]

Chaos Gods? Not likely at all. Daemon Primarchs like the rest? Maybe, I mean Fulgrim was already fully converted Snake-body during the Heresy iirc, so potentially, the Lost and Forgotten could've been Daemon Primarch's PRIOR to the Heresy.

[MARK0SIAN]

I think the other issue with them becoming chaos gods or even daemon Primarchs is that it’s hard to see how we wouldn’t have heard something more about them in the 10,000 years since it happened. I don’t necessarily mean us as an audience but the in-universe characters. It’s hard to imagine that some of the characters wouldn’t be aware of them if they have a strong connection to the warp.

 

I think whatever happened to the missing Primarchs it was pretty ‘Final’ in terms of their fate.

[Karhedron]

Genetic instability seems like a probably case in at least one of the missing legions. Remember that Sanguinius was terrified of the Emperor discovering the Blood Angels' flaw and begged Horus to keep his secret. Why was he so terrified? The simplest explanation would be if he had seen a Legion purged for its instability before. Not conclusive proof but another piece of circumstantial evidence.

 

Another possibility that keeps cropping up are the Rangdan Xenocides. This was the most brutal campaign of the Great Crusade and the Dark Angels lost around a third of their fighting force. It has been hinted that one of the Legions was lost at this time. I am not so convinced about this one simply because losing a Legion and a Primarch would have been a tragedy but not so shameful as to require the degree of cover-up that seems to surround the 2nd and 11th Legions.

 

Lastly there is the possibility of some early contact with Chaos. The short story "The Room at the End of Memory" makes this seem a very likely case. Malcador admits to Dorn that at least one of their lost brothers discovered something about the nature of Chaos and had to be destroyed. Most of the Primarchs who knew about it agreed to have their memories erased. Malcador briefly restores Dorn's memories of the events and Dorn agrees that they did what was necessary before asking Malcador to remove the painful memories once more. It is also revealed that Dorn and Guilliman came up with a plan to "adopt" some of the Marines from the lost Legion who were untainted by whatever happened to their Primarch. Malcador says that only one Primarch was mentally strong enough to be allowed to retain their memories of the events. It is no stated but I believe this was Alpharius since he is the only one who expresses knowledge of Chaos and the Emperor's desire to eliminate it prior to the start of the Heresy. Cases could be made for Magnus or Russ but this seems unlikely considering what happened to them.

 

In "First Heretic" Magnus and Lorgar specifically refer to the 2 lost legions as "The Purged" and "The Forgotten" respectively. So one legion suffered from catastrophic instability and had to be "purged" by the Space Wolves. This explains Sanguinius' fear of mutation and the Wolves' reputation as executioners. The other Primarch discovered something about Chaos that was so terrible his brothers agreed to have their memories erased and adopt his sons. Thus the legion was "forgotten".

[Xenith]

 

To become chaos gods? How was one hunted down by leman russ/wolves without giving up knowledge of the warp at that time?

 

Im my mind it would be they were raised with empathy for xenos and/or on a xenos world. The Emperor purging their adoptive family or simply the billions of other xenos during the crusade made them turn against their father.

 

Hell in the grand scheme of the Emperor, proported as a 5d chess game against chaos, their determined traits (as each primarch had their own role) might have simply not befit the current timeline. Perhaps another potential timeline saw the Emperor solicit a truce with the eldar, and some other Primarch's would've been eliminated.

being sympathetic to xenos doesn't seem like a more serious crime compared to what the traitors did...

 

 

Remember that this happened before the Horus Heresy, so Xeno-sympathy was potentially a bigger issue then as it went directly against the Emperor's Monodominant agenda.

 

After the heresy, the Loyalists had bigger fish to fry.

Edited December 8, 2020 by Xenith

[chapter master 454]

It is clear that whatever events happened, the 2nd and 11th are both removed from records for something not entirely clear. It is obvious that whatever they did or suffered it was enough to have their only footnote on history being their legions' numbers of 2nd and 11th.

 

One element that is to be remembered is that it was the Emperor who ordered their removal from history, including their statues on Terra. So this isn't someone we can just say "oh he removed them for heresy" like we do today, the Emperor was a very arrogant and proud man; failure was not acceptable. He earned loyalty from the Primarch's by showing what they would see as trustworthiness, ability or some other quality they desired and thus assumed he was a great man with truly great aspects. However even in the case of Vulkan, what the Primarch saw as the Emperor forgoing pride was actually the opposite; the Drake wasn't the prize it was Vulkan. So their purging could be as much vanity or ego centric as it could be actual issues. For all we know, the reasons could actually be benign compared to todays standards with their purging being completely unnecessary as they crime was possibly just rampant mutation or failure of duty.

 

Big E was never a nice guy. Kind of the point.

[Captain Idaho]

What sort of situation could possibly cause the Imperium to lose or be destroyed WORSE than half the Legions turning against the Emperor?

 

I actually think there are several clues there.

 

The most logical revolve around the Emperor. Something about the interactions between the Emperor and these 2 Primarchs result in the destruction of everything the Imperium stands for.

 

So what could they be? It would have to be linked to loyalty to the Emperor, or support for him, or something that turns the Emperor against humanity itself. Physical destruction is unlikely so we're probably talking ideological.

 

I have theories that fit this and can even combine elements to explain things:

 

1) One or more of the Lost Primarchs have a quirk of their nature that reveals the Emperor to be something else unacceptable to humanity. An alien? A creature of the Warp? A Daemon? So him being an imposter/monster would directly stomp on the acceptance of the ideals of humanity the Emperor installed into the Crusade and Imperium.

 

2) The nature of one or more Lost Primarchs resulted in illness or impotence of the Emperor, though this would need a bit of filling out around it. Why? Is the Emperor controlling Humanity and if the Lost Primarch is in vicinity of him, the veil is removed from our eyes? There is nothing without the Emperor after all.

 

3) Perhaps the Emperor's not alone and a rival being inhabited a Lost Primarch? This means he is potentially a fraud and would definitely call into question everything he stood for.

 

4) Following 1-3, the 2nd Lost Primarch could very well have been the Primarch mentioned in "The Chamber at the end of Memory" as not needing to have his memory adjusted. Or just found out the truth, hence why he was purged. His memory leads to the memory of the other...

 

5) The biggest one... imagine the Emperor is revealed to be destructive towards humanity when in close proximity to a Lost Primarch or even a large distance away. Maybe he kills humans, or takes control of their minds and can't control himself. Maybe the Primarch acts as a catalyst to start a leaching effect from the Emperor that consumes the souls of all humans gradually. Uncontrollable or intentional.

 

And maybe they is the plan the Emperor has in the end, through the Golden Throne, which cannot be known because it is too early and won't be accepted by many.

 

***

 

I'm aware these are my theories, but I don't see anything else being feasible as such a big deal as being bigger than the HH.

[Ishagu]

In my mind I always imagined that the Lost Primarchs were simply failures.

 

They weren't these statuesque, Greek gods that were masters of every political, social and military craft.

 

They were mis-shapen failures that couldn't be allowed to be associated with the glorious Emperor and the rest of his sons. One was purged upon being found, and the other was allowed to be lost in the Warp or abandoned on a barren planet.

Edited December 8, 2020 by Ishagu

[Gederas]

Another possibility that keeps cropping up are the Rangdan Xenocides. This was the most brutal campaign of the Great Crusade and the Dark Angels lost around a third of their fighting force. It has been hinted that one of the Legions was lost at this time. I am not so convinced about this one simply because losing a Legion and a Primarch would have been a tragedy but not so shameful as to require the degree of cover-up that seems to surround the 2nd and 11th Legions.

The II Legion was listed on the role of battle for the Ragdan Xenocides, and that's the only case they crop up on any such list, which means.... This theory might hold true.

 

With all the fluff we have about the Rangdan Xenocides, it could be theorized that the II Legion could have been compromised by one of the xenos lifeforms, as it's mentioned that one of the things the Rangda had access to were very powerful mind-controlling xenos...

[Karhedron]

Yes, in one place the Rangdan have been described as "cerabvores" with all the grisly implications that come with that. A Primarch falling to such a creature could be borderline catastrophic. But it might also explain why many of the Legion's Marines might have survived to be adopted by other Legions.

[Sky Potato]

Wasn’t it Angel Exterminatus where Perturabo had flashbacks to his youth?

 

I seem to recall when he first went to Terra (vs first meeting the Emperor, I’m certain it’s when he first travelled to see big E) there was an allusion to a series of tests that each Primarch had to undertake - I’m sure there was reference to Fulgrim passing his tests as well as Perturabo.

 

With that snippet, I always took it that the two missing Primarchs failed their tests with the Emperor.

[MegaVolt87]

I always wondered if UM and IF had kymeric geneseed if they took in the lost legions. Perhapse Dorn and Bobby are more closely alignged genetically to the missing two so the geneseed isn't an issue ?

[MARK0SIAN]

I always wondered if UM and IF had kymeric geneseed if they took in the lost legions. Perhapse Dorn and Bobby are more closely alignged genetically to the missing two so the geneseed isn't an issue ?

Yeah I was thinking about the gene seed issues myself. More from the point of view of the memory wipes though. If, as Malcador says, they wiped the memories of the Primarchs, then how did they deal with the gene seed issues with the legions that seemingly adopted the marines from the purged ones.

 

With the demands of the crusade and the way the crusade functioned then it’s perfectly feasible that you could add in thousands of marines that others in the legion had never met E.G. different expeditionary fleets, recruiting worlds etc. But even if they kept the missing legion marines in separate companies, eventually the genetic difference in gene seed would come to light either in routine screening or when it was harvested and used to create new marines etc. I suppose they could’ve removed the gene seed when they adopted them into the new legion but it would need a lot more people memory wiped than just the Primarchs.

 

There must’ve been some way to incorporate the missing legion marines without their different generic stock causing problems or ringing alarm bells, you could be onto something that the geneseed of the ultras was close or something like that, although I’d say that reduces the likelihood of the legions suffering from some genetic deviation as we know the ultras one is pretty stable. An interesting conundrum :)

[Karhedron]

Wasn’t it Angel Exterminatus where Perturabo had flashbacks to his youth?

 

I seem to recall when he first went to Terra (vs first meeting the Emperor, I’m certain it’s when he first travelled to see big E) there was an allusion to a series of tests that each Primarch had to undertake - I’m sure there was reference to Fulgrim passing his tests as well as Perturabo.

 

With that snippet, I always took it that the two missing Primarchs failed their tests with the Emperor.

Yes that rings a bell. I am sure I remember reading elsewhere that all the Primarchs eventually took command of their respective legions. Even Angron, despite the Emperor realising he was broken beyond repair, was given command of a legion of warriors made in his image.

 

The Great Crusade was on a tight schedule as there was only a narrow window of opportunity after the Fall of the Eldar for humanity to take over the dominant species in the Galaxy. The Emperor was forced to accept that the Primarchs had developed outside his plans and adapt accordingly.

[WARMASTER_]

For me the missing primarch’s have always been struck off for the gravest sin in the Emperors eyes, not heresy but Failure...

 

They’re mentioned and “ The Purged and the forgotten”

 

Always seemed pretty clear after that, the reasons we’ll never truly know, But we know from heresy scraps that Russ had already destroyed a legion but the 15th and the Guilimans ranks suddenly swelled around mid heresy making them the largest legion

 

My guess would be Failure on both counts one probably gene seed failure or something to do with rangda (the ones to taste the routs blades) the other complete failure in war (probably killed and had his legion absorbed by the 13th)

Edited December 8, 2020 by BladeOfVengeance

[Scribe]

Karhedron, I don't know if you are correct, but I like your explanation enough it's now my head canon.

[Captain Idaho]

I always wondered if UM and IF had kymeric geneseed if they took in the lost legions. Perhapse Dorn and Bobby are more closely alignged genetically to the missing two so the geneseed isn't an issue ?

It's a very interesting idea. I don't think geneseed is mixed together in the lab, like a big melting pot, but it's possible geneseed from a disbanded Legion could still exist in the parent Chapter.

 

There are problems with this theory though.

 

The Geneseed of the Ultramarines, alongside the Word Bearers and I believe (can't quite remember) the Imperial Fists was tinkered by the gene-splicing techno sorceress of Lunar factions, as a reward for pacifying them. It grows quickly, stable and true. This would mean geenseed that doesn't wouldn't be seen as meeting the standards and either culled or just fall behind until it just doesn't exist anymore through attrition.

 

It's also possible, post the fall of a Legion's Primarch, the Chapter focuses on the purity of geneseed more diligently. So whether a "foreign" or deviant geneseed can be accepted by the parent Legion/Chapter is debatable.

 

Interestingly, wasn't there a White Scar who was actually given the geneseed of Horus when recruited on Terra? I can't quite remember but I seem to recall he was particularly jaded he was not joining the Legion he trained for.

 

That all implies it was fairly common practice back then to mix and match. If not common, at least not crazy.l

 

Of course my memory is a little off on that one. Not sure on it exactly but I'm fairly certain of the story being true in principle.

[Karhedron]

Interestingly, wasn't there a White Scar who was actually given the geneseed of Horus when recruited on Terra? I can't quite remember but I seem to recall he was particularly jaded he was not joining the Legion he trained for.

Close. After the Khan was found, recruitment for the White Scars was stepped up. A sizeable batch of recruits intended for the Lunar Wolves was diverted to the White Scars instead. They never had Horus' geneseed but they had begun initial training and were excited to join the 16th as that Legion was already becoming prestigious, long before Horus was actually proclaimed Warmaster.

[Captain Idaho]

Are we sure they had no genetic modification at that point? Hypnotherapy and conditioning would definitely be a part at some stage.

 

Anyway, regardless of my brain, the points remain.

[grailkeeper]

We know the primarchs were to be aspects of the Emperor's character to help him rule the Imperium. Might be worth looking at what aspects of his personality/abilities that are missing- the two missing primarchs may have been intended to cover these. For example a large part of the Imperium will be space and whilst the Primarchs are good at space combat there isn't one specialising in it. 

[CrazyIvan87]

When I first heard about the lost legions, my thoughts went straight to the lost legions of Rome back in 9CE.

 

The legions XVII, XVIII and XIX were ambushed and destroyed, almost to a man, by a coalition of Germanic tribes. The battle is refered to the Battle of Teutoburg Forest.

 

This sent emperor Augustus into a chock, how could three legions of the worlds most advanced and drilled army be defeated like that?

The Germanic alliance was lead by a former auxilia officer, thanks to that the Germanic tribes knew what to expect by the Romans.

After the battle the legion numbers were not used again on a newly raised legion. (One was raised many years later, but was disbanded again)

 

What if we turn this into 40K settings?

 

The emperor orders two full legions and their primarchs to fight on hostile territory (Rangdan)

A bit prior to the disastrous battle the enemy managed to take control of a high ranking officer (or perhaps a primarch) and therefore knows about the plans.

 

The aftermath is two dead primarchs and two almost lost legions (survivors are mindwiped and spread out to other legions)

 

So why are they forgotten?

 

Short answer, fear.

 

What would happend if word was spreading in the imperium that two primarchs and their legions, the mightiest and most powerful warriors, pride of the human race, was wiped out like that?

What if one of the primarchs was actually controlled by the enemy?

 

Anything like that could cause the emperor to order the legions forever lost and forever forgotten. (In my opinion)

 

(Sorry for typos and spelling, writing from my phone)

 

/CrazyIvan

[Scribe]

We know the primarchs were to be aspects of the Emperor's character to help him rule the Imperium. Might be worth looking at what aspects of his personality/abilities that are missing- the two missing primarchs may have been intended to cover these. For example a large part of the Imperium will be space and whilst the Primarchs are good at space combat there isn't one specialising in it.

Someone did that here through the Tarot. Very cool.